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redtree

North vs Reach, who has the best fighter ?

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Just because they have numbers don't make them better. I would put every regions army above of the Reach because every region have more experience than the Reach army. The North has the ability to build a navy very easily, they just barely did cause plot demands it. 

No, but it does give them a greater chance of having exceptional fighters, they have in excess of 20,000 men-at-arms compared to the north having in the region of 7,000. Even if you were to say the average northern fighter was a fair bit better, the Reach would probably still have much better top fighters due to the numbers they can recruit from.

And I don't agree that the Reachmen are hugely inexperienced, 10,000s were involved in defeating a Stormlander invasion during Robert's Rebellion, then they led a counter invasion of the Stormlands, parts of which they occupied for several months.

Recently significant numbers of Reachmen fought on both sides in the Battle of the Blackwater.

Compare this to Dorne, they have fought nothing in 15 years, and they last time they did fight their entire army was defeated, with much of it likely killed in the battle or unable to return home.

The Iron Islands would be in a worse position, given how disastrous the first rebellion was for them it is unlikely that many of their current soldiers have fought except for some pirating.

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7 best would end in slaughter, to our knowledge the north has no one approaching the level of Garlan, and very few on the level of Loras, Randyll and others.

 

7 randoms, despite what some claim, should be fairly even, men-at-arms should logically be of approximately the same quality across the regions, and the text largely supports this.

1v1 Garlan vs GreatJon, i'll put my money on GreatJon. He is mentioned as heavily muscled and a formidable warrior. It took 8 men to froze him although he was really drunk and full bellied and he managed to kill 1, bit someone's ear off and harmed the others. That alone speaks strongly of his prowess. Garlan's reputation is great but not extraordinary.

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1v1 Garlan vs GreatJon, i'll put my money on GreatJon. He is mentioned as heavily muscled and a formidable warrior. It took 8 men to froze him although he was really drunk and full bellied and he managed to kill 1, bit someone's ear off and harmed the others. That alone speaks strongly of his prowess. Garlan's reputation is great but not extraordinary.

The Freys were trying to capture him though, not kill him, and the Greatjon grabbed a sword as soon as the capture attempt began.

Garlan and Loras are by the author's words in the current top 5 Westerosi warriors, along with the Cleganes and Barry, they're not simply great, they are extraordinary.

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1v1 Garlan vs GreatJon, i'll put my money on GreatJon. He is mentioned as heavily muscled and a formidable warrior. It took 8 men to froze him although he was really drunk and full bellied and he managed to kill 1, bit someone's ear off and harmed the others. That alone speaks strongly of his prowess. Garlan's reputation is great but not extraordinary.

Neither is the Greatjons. Neither regularly compete in tourneys so neither has great reputations. Loras, who the author regards as one of his finest warriors, speaks in awe of his brother. At the battle of Blackwater we hear, of his exploits disguised as Renly

"It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers! Lord Renly with his tall spear in his hand! They say he killed Ser Guyard Morrigen himself in single combat, and a dozen other great knights as well."

Infact Jaime mentions that Garlan outperformed his brother Loras in the battle

"It's said you fought magnificently in the battle . . . almost as well as Lord Renly's ghost beside you."

 

 

 

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Reach has better comanders, Randyll Tarly comes to mind

The Reach has hardly shown better commanders than the North. Randyll Tarly is supposedly brilliant, Mathis Rowan is good, Garlan Tyrell is probably decent, and Laswell Peake of the Golden Company seem competent as well.

But the North has Robb Stark who was brilliant, Jon Snow who is good, Eddard Stark who taught the two and supposedly was brilliant, Jeor Mormont and Jorah Mormont who are both good, Roose Bolton who is good, Galbart Glover and Robett Glover who are both competent, and many more who are spoken of quite well and have a good record. So while the Reach certainly have more noteworthy warriors and a much larger army, nothing indicates that they have better commanders to pick from. It rather seems like the North excel at producing competent commanders. The Westerlands, Stormlands or Riverlands are likely in second after them, with the Reach merely being average (so far).

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The Reach has hardly shown better commanders than the North. Randyll Tarly is supposedly brilliant, Mathis Rowan is good, Garlan Tyrell is probably decent, and Laswell Peake of the Golden Company seem competent as well.

But the North has Robb Stark who was brilliant, Jon Snow who is good, Eddard Stark who taught the two and supposedly was brilliant, Jeor Mormont and Jorah Mormont who are both good, Roose Bolton who is good, Galbart Glover and Robett Glover who are both competent, and many more who are spoken of quite well and have a good record. So while the Reach certainly have more noteworthy warriors and a much larger army, nothing indicates that they have better commanders to pick from. It rather seems like the North excel at producing competent commanders. The Westerlands, Stormlands or Riverlands are likely in second after them, with the Reach merely being average (so far).

Robb Stark is hardly briliant. He made himself lose trough his decisions.

Jon Snow is in Nights Watch.

Eddard Start is dead, and isnt that good of a fighter or leader. He was the second son, he was never as trained as them. All Ned has is love of the Northmen

Jeor Mormont, Dead, Nights Watch

Jorah, across the narrow sea, disinherited, will be executed if he comes North.

Roose Bolton is good

Competence isnt brilliance

 

Reach has everything, resources, numbers, comanders, ships. North has nothing. Sorry

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Robb Stark is hardly briliant. He made himself lose trough his decisions.

Jon Snow is in Nights Watch.

Eddard Start is dead, and isnt that good of a fighter or leader. He was the second son, he was never as trained as them. All Ned has is love of the Northmen

Jeor Mormont, Dead, Nights Watch

Jorah, across the narrow sea, disinherited, will be executed if he comes North.

Roose Bolton is good

Competence isnt brilliance

 

Reach has everything, resources, numbers, comanders, ships. North has nothing. Sorry

We're talking strictly about fighter but considering you've widen the topics, Stark has honorable reputation and strong grasp to most of their bannermen, something that Tyrell lacks of. And between Mace v Eddard, i praise Eddard all the way

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But the North has Robb Stark who was brilliant, Jon Snow who is good, Eddard Stark who taught the two and supposedly was brilliant, Jeor Mormont and Jorah Mormont who are both good, Roose Bolton who is good, Galbart Glover and Robett Glover who are both competent, and many more who are spoken of quite well and have a good record. .

What has Jeor done to show that he is good? We have seen him lead one command THE battle of the Fist of the First man was an unmitigated disaster.

Jorah seems like a fantastic warrior and an intelligent councillor but I'm not sure we can call him good (or bad) at commanding armies.

Roose is definitely intelligent but again, there is no evidence that he is a good commander. The Red Wedding is the only win that we know he has.

Robbet Glover was poor. How he allowed himself to be manipulated by Roose and lose the majority of his army puts him in the poor category, not competent.

Robb and Jon are certainly good, but then so too are Loras and Randyll. We know little of the Reach leaders after that apart from their names and a few snippets of dialogue.

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Robb Stark is hardly briliant. He made himself lose trough his decisions.

Jon Snow is in Nights Watch.

Eddard Start is dead, and isnt that good of a fighter or leader. He was the second son, he was never as trained as them. All Ned has is love of the Northmen

Jeor Mormont, Dead, Nights Watch

Jorah, across the narrow sea, disinherited, will be executed if he comes North.

Roose Bolton is good

Competence isnt brilliance

 

Reach has everything, resources, numbers, comanders, ships. North has nothing. Sorry

Robb Stark was a brilliant military commander, no matter how one looks at it. It was his (and others) political decisions that weren't top notch , not his military ones. As he himself said "I've won every battle, but I'm losing the war".

So? What does that matter? We are talking about individuals based on their region of origin, not based on their current loyalties. Else Loras Tyrell wouldn't be counted since he serves in the Kingsguard not the will of House Tyrell.

He was alive at the start of A Game of Thrones though, which is what matters. And while he was just a competent fighter, he was definitly a brilliant leader. His very character made people want to follow him and made him beloved in the entire North (and in other regions as well). Ned certainly recieved the same kind of education as his older brother Brandon, just with less focus on inheriting WInterfell and being the next Warden of the North. GRRM has even said that Ned was a better military commander than Brandon ever was. COnsidering how Robb and Jon's military thinging is based on Ned's teaching I can understand that.

He was alive at the beginning of the series, and his loyaltes doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter when it comes to measuring his competence as a commander.

Agreed.

Never said it was.

What has Jeor done to show that he is good? We have seen him lead one command THE battle of the Fist of the First man was an unmitigated disaster.

Jorah seems like a fantastic warrior and an intelligent councillor but I'm not sure we can call him good (or bad) at commanding armies.

Roose is definitely intelligent but again, there is no evidence that he is a good commander. The Red Wedding is the only win that we know he has.

Robbet Glover was poor. How he allowed himself to be manipulated by Roose and lose the majority of his army puts him in the poor category, not competent.

Robb and Jon are certainly good, but then so too are Loras and Randyll. We know little of the Reach leaders after that apart from their names and a few snippets of dialogue.

And despite being surrounded by several hundreds of undead who can only be killed by fire and has great strenght Jeor rallied an organized retreat in which 60 out of the originally 300 survived, and they even managed to bring with them provision down the hill. It's also implied the Night's Watch withstood the wight onslaught for quite a while - against a foe they have never once enganged before and didn't know anything but the most basic information about. All things considered, I'd consider that an impressive showing of military command.

I suppose that's possible. He always seems sensible and rational in his role as councilor (and regardinge verything but love), and he was Dany's supreme commander in SLaver's Bay I suppose it's possible that I conflate the two.

Roose doesn't need to win for us to see that he knows his way around a battlefield. The planning of the Red Wedding is of course evidence, but his tactics when taking Harrenhal, and his deliberate losses at the Ruby Ford speak of a man who knows how to position, deploy and use his forces with great timing and deliberation. The Green Fork is another example of this, when he deliberately puts his own forces in the rear, and then sends the Stark forces into battle in a win-win situation; either he takes Tywin by surprise, wins and his house grows in influence, or he doesn't take Tywin by surprise, orders a reatreat with his own forces intact and the others houses decimated and his house rises in influence. It should also be noted that managing and ordered retreat and not overreaching himself as Roose did takes a lot of skill. Reatreats were usually when most casualties occured in medieval times, and timing when to do it properly is hard.

Being manipulated by one of the most cunning individuals in the series doesn't mean he can't lead an army. In fact, despite being greatly outnumbered by Randyll Tarly, Robett's forces inflicted heavy casualties at Duskendale and managed a relatively organized reatreat. He was also the one to lead the Northmen in the taking of Harrenhal. Overall I'd say he is competent without being brilliant.

Loras is absolute shit compared to the Northern commanders, if the reports from Dragonstone are true. He got 1,000 killed (out of 2,000) when taking Dragonstone, possibly including himself. And this is against a token Garrison that could consist of more than 50 men. He showed rashness, lack of caution and bad judgement.

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The Reach.

They have a bigger population to choose from, are richer (thus better equipped), and due to being historically surrounded by enemies while not having any real natural defenses they have a rather martial culture.

The North simply doesn't have anyone that can compare to Loras or Garlan Tyrell.

Equipment won't be significantly better as we are talking about individual fighters and not whole armies.

What makes you say that? Simple fact is that southern fighters like Loras Tyrell are well known because of their performances in tourneys. The Northmen dont participate in tourneys so they are not as well known. In fact the Northern lords whose lands border the wall (like Umbers) get plenty of real life combat unlike southern lords. It is also noted that Northern melees are much more brutal than southern ones. 

Basically this

Garlan Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, Emmon Cuy, Parmen Crane, Arys Oakheart all seem like more than competent warriors, and I don't think the North has people that can really compare, except for the Greatjon and possibly the Smalljon. The likes of Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Jory Cassel and others are all good fighters, but not as notable as the people from the Reach or other southern regions.

Also, good tourney fighters are usually pretty good all-around fighters in the books. In fact, I can't think of an example where this is not the case. And where is northern melees being more brutal mentioned?

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Lmao, GreatJon smashes clean through anyone from the Reach

Except Garlan and Loras, who are miles above him in terms of skill.

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Except Garlan and Loras, who are miles above him in terms of skill.

Evidence that they are miles ahead of him in terms of skill?? Do you know the greatjons skill level?? Is it mentioned anywhere?? All we know is that the guy is big, strong, powerful and has survived 3 major wars and numerous wildling skirmishes unscathed. He is more than twice the age of either garlan or loras and has 10 times the experience. For all we know he could be extremely well skilled as well.

The man laughs when a giant wolf eats his fingers for crying out loud!!!

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Equipment won't be significantly better as we are talking about individual fighters and not whole armies.Basically thisAlso, good tourney fighters are usually pretty good all-around fighters in the books. In fact, I can't think of an example where this is not the case. And where is northern melees being more brutal mentioned?

The northern melees are known for being more brutal. It is in the world book. I believe one of these melees flattened a few villages and and led to the deaths of a few of the participants. Not that every melee is that bad but it shows how much more brutal than the southern melees they can become

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The northern melees are known for being more brutal. It is in the world book. I believe one of these melees flattened a few villages and and led to the deaths of a few of the participants. Not that every melee is that bad but it shows how much more brutal than the southern melees they can become

Sounds like a Medieval soccer match.

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Have people forgotten Howland Reed and the crannogmen? I think they would cause havoc in any fight against Reachmen. Stealth and poison arrows go a long way. 

Poison darts are useless against a fully armoured knight though, unless you are lucky/a really good aim 

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The northern melees are known for being more brutal. It is in the world book. I believe one of these melees flattened a few villages and and led to the deaths of a few of the participants. Not that every melee is that bad but it shows how much more brutal than the southern melees they can become

My main impression from the World Book wasn't about them being more brutal but just about them having far less rules in the melee.  The Reach os much more about chivalry and who can and can't enter it seems Northern Melee is just a free for all.

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Simply because of the number of fighters to choose from, the obvious answer is the Reach but with that said, I think it's unfair to write off the North simply based on the renoun of the fighters. Renoun in the current day and age in the ASOIAF universe comes from Tourneys and very, VERY, slightly from a few isolated events during the War of the 5 Kings. The North is isolated and we simply don't know near as much about them or their fighters as we do the other Kingdoms, especially the Reach since the names I see coming up constantly are the two Tyrell's and Loras is a major player (in relative comparison to others) throughout the books. 

Still going with the Reach for reasons stated above but the North is no joke or to be taken as lightly as I've got the impression from some of the above posts. The GreatJon is a one man wrecking crew and even though he's old (by ASOIAF standards), Hugo Wull seems and sounds like a flat-out badass and if he's not, he sure talks a good game. We simply don't have the pertinent info to completely write them off so quickly. Then again, this is only my opinion and view on the subject.

Completely off topic since he's not from either region but I would bet my last dollar on Victarion in his plate against just about any knight from any of the 7K's. 

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