How long did Stannis know?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Many Kings made their brothers Hands because they were actually fit for the job. It's not like Stannis was expecting Robert to love him. Stannis had proven being capable and had served Robert well.

Many? You mean 2, possibly 3 depending on who Orys was.

Robert and Ned's relationship is far closer to that of Aegon and Orys than Stannis and Robert:

His commanding presence drew men to his banners, yet he had no close friends, save Orys Baratheon, the companion of his youth.

Then there is Aegon III and Viserys:

But his release—with his new Lyseni bride, the beautiful Larra Rogare, seven years his elder—was a joy regardless, and for the rest of his days he was the only person Aegon ever fully trusted.

So two positive relationships between Kings and Hands, but the key difference here is that they were both extremely close. Two withdrawn kings who only really had one close male friend who they made their Hand.

And then there is Aenys and Maegor, two brothers who did not get along and Maegor used his influence and power to usurp his nephews and nieces crown and helped plunge the realm into civil war infact maybe Maegor also knew that a Queen would poison Aenys and Maegor did nothing to stop it.

Maybe Robert thought Stannis could have been another Maegor and that is precisely why he did not want to make him his Hand.

No matter the reason, he is the King. If he wants to make Ned his Hand then that is his prerogative.

[G_Land]

Is just that nobody likes Stannis. He also lacks diplomatic skills. Trying to strike a deal with him would've been nearly impossible.

Agreed. Stannis is unyielding. He believes his word is iron. He asks for counsil but if it's not what he wants to hear he chews your ass for giving it..... Even though he likes ppl that tells him true ( Davos,Jon Snow) it's hard to deal with someone like that.... Better to just keep them happy while giving him the bare min.

[G_Land]

Even Catlyn knew that Stannis would never bend

[Blackfyre Bastard]

 

I believe you have misquoted me. 

[G_Land]

I believe you have misquoted me. 

I did this forum is a lil touchy with IOS lol

[Minsc]

What makes him "unfit"? Because Merrywheater was a softy, Orys Baratheon seemed like a man who had little patience, Hightower pretty much plotted against the King's choice I'm not saying Stannis was THE perfect choice either, but he had experience and while he needed a lot of help with his PR department, that never mind Bloodraven. And he was a definitive better choice than Ned Stark who knew nothing of KL politics and ended up dead.

 

Jon Arryn's most important role while serving as Robert's Hand was him acting as Robert's chief diplomat.  Stannis cannot even get his own brothers to like him so he isn't going to have success in that field.  Nor does he bring really anything needed or unique to Robert's service.  Not only in regards to the other candidates (Ned, Renly, Tywin, and so forth) but in regards to Robert either.  With his greatest service being his ability to act as a military commander (and despite which some say he isn't the greatest) as Robert equally excels in that field.

There is also the fact that Hand seems like to be placed as a first among equals within the Small Council yet Stannis seems to dislike almost everyone else on Robert's council with the feeling being mutual back.  In fact, he talks about if it was up to him he would have executed two of them,  None of this being productive in a council format.

Finally, you have the realty that Stannis doesn't even get along with the king.

 

So Stannis as a Hand that doesn't get along with the nobles, the small council, and the king seems be a poor fit for that position.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Stannis became suspicious when Joffrey butchered the cat , and Robert response was to say "Joffrey is not like me ."

[Lord Wraith]

I would expect Petyr would have done it very subtly, perhaps even through a third person. 

I remember reading a theory that Littlefinger slipped the information to Stannis via Richard Horpe or Justin Massey. I will need to find it.

[bent branch]

I find it weird that people think Stannis would have been a poor Hand because "people didn't like him". It is almost unanimously agreed that Tywin was the bestest Hand EVER and nobody likes Tywin, not even when he was serving as Aerys' Hand.

[Sullen]

I find it weird that people think Stannis would have been a poor Hand because "people didn't like him". It is almost unanimously agreed that Tywin was the bestest Hand EVER and nobody likes Tywin, not even when he was serving as Aerys' Hand.

People don't especially like Tywin, but Tywin knows how to placate people and keep them on his good side.

Stannis is pretty much antagonistic towards everyone he meets, people outright dislike him and his shitty attitude.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

I find it weird that people think Stannis would have been a poor Hand because "people didn't like him". It is almost unanimously agreed that Tywin was the bestest Hand EVER and nobody likes Tywin, not even when he was serving as Aerys' Hand.

Tywin had skills. He could win you over, he could coerce you, he he could intimidate you, he could buy you, and ultimately he could destroy you. Stannis would never accept anything other than outright submission before he has crossed words with you.

PS Sullen beat me to the punch 

[joluoto2]

Let's be honest. The reason Stannis didn't become Hand is because Robert didn't want him to ban all whores in King's Landing.

[John Doe]

They had more than a decade to kill him, but he supposedly feared for his own life.

Stannis was seen visiting brothels with Jon Arryn, Robert was not suspected to know about the incest. Though he would have had Stannis told him.

[John Doe]

I find it weird that people think Stannis would have been a poor Hand because "people didn't like him". It is almost unanimously agreed that Tywin was the bestest Hand EVER and nobody likes Tywin, not even when he was serving as Aerys' Hand.

Was Tywin hated before he had the dragon spawn killed?

[Walda]

I think Stannis would have been thinking long and hard since his marriage day, about Robert's bastards, and his own lack of trueborn sons.

I also think that Stannis had some kind of magical or prophetic tip-off that took him to Dragonstone. You can explain the taking of the fleet from the great ship-building docks of King's Landing to the more treacherous harbour of Dragonstone as his right and/or duty as the Master of Ships. You can explain his motives as fear or jealousy, his silence as self-effacing or self-serving. Maybe he started collecting sellswords and pirates after King Robert died (I'm guessing that it was actually Davos did the collecting, and it started before Robert died, or most wouldn't have had the time to get from where they were to Dragonstone). But the shadowbinder from Asshai, and the conversion of his wife, then himself, to the Red God - the turning away from his own Gods - where did that come from? I don't think he left because he was afraid or bitter. I think he left because he was looking for something, something he believed he could find on Dragonstone, or in Essos. with the right kind of prophet to guide him. Some kind of Excalibur - that his fancy red sword clearly isn't.

I'm not absolutely sure about the information Jon Arryn was seeking, either. Searching Malleon is not the most obvious way to discover that Cersei was cuckolding Robert. And Jon Arryn didn't need Malleon like Eddard did. He had seen more than one of Robert's bastards; Gerwen Baratheon and Tya Lannister might have married before he was born, but he was old enough to have made their personal acquaintance, and  the black haired progeny of the earlier Baratheon/Lannister marriage was also about the same age as his parents. He could remember people Eddard only saw as entries in a ledger, and instances that fell outside the official histories, too.

And it isn't like they have DNA testing. Malleon could only be used to establish the legitimacy of the people and progeny in it, most of whom were dead already. As long as Robert acknowledged Joffrey as his legitimate heir. he would be, and would be recorded in books like Malleon's as such, blond hair and all. Robert acknowledged Joffrey as his son to the bitter end (unlike his bastards, in spite of the pleasure he took in the company of Mya and Edric). Although Malleon helped Eddard justify committing the treason of throwing Robert's last will and testament into doubt, it has no legal standing, and offers weak and inconclusive proof of a concept quite alien to Westeros (that blood, not marriage, determines legitimacy).

Jon Arryn has his own concerns - a single puny heir, that might be Petyr Baelish's, multiple marriages, multiple miscarriages, and possibly some inherited degenerative illness from all the Targaryen blood in his own line. Apart from attempting to find out more about the fates of his own bloodlines, he might have come across something that roused his curiosity as to why Aerys wanted the heads and heirs of particular noble houses dead.

Pycelle carked it pretty fast after he decided to read Malleon, too. That book is like the Ringu of Westeros. The sort of book best burnt before reading. I wonder if Bolton burnt the only other copy of it at Harrenhal.

Petyr Baelish seems to have survived reading the title page, but he is the only person who seems to have survived more than a month after surveying it for the first time. Possibly because Varys' little birds didn't know he took a quick peek. I'm not so sure Petyr knew about Cersei's twincest, and doubt he would care, except in so far as it gave him a hold on her,  her supporters, or her detractors. Look at how quick he was to take ownership of the dragon-bone hilted Valaryian steel dagger (that was never his), when it suited his purpose. He is a great one for jumping in with a plausible lie, especially about Tyrion (another eg."He had a wife before you, did you know that?”
“He told me.”
“And did he tell you that when he grew bored with her, he made a gift of her to his father’s guardsmen?"(ASoS, Ch.68 Sansa VI))

It would be in keeping with Baelish to act as if he has known forever what he just found out now...that "Always keep your foes confused"(ASoS, Ch.61 Sansa V) speech is pure bs. What Baelish is very good at is involving himself in other people's elaborate schemes, the cuckoo that mimics its host species, and chucks the lawful heirs out of the nest while its foster-parents slave away feeding it. The jackal that drags off a leg of the Eland the Lion brought down. Admitting that the knowledge is new to him would be like implying that he was not ten steps ahead of the game.Deny it, and he still finds out whatever they have to tell.

Also, though Stannis had more reason than most to suspect Joffrey's legitimacy, even if he did not, he would still have ambition. He aspired to be more than the Master of Ships and Lord of Dragonstone. Renly had ambition too, and without any particular reason to suspect Joffrey's legitimacy or care about it, Renly stayed in King's Landing, dreaming up schemes of having Cersei set aside for Margarey and getting his brother killed in melees or hunts. As with all ambitious men, if one justification fails, find another. It seems to me that Stannis might have foreseen Robert's death at Jon Arryn's funeral, and decided to stay well away from Robert and keep his own kingly hands clean.

We know that he was not so honourable that he wouldn't kin-slay Renly, and Edric Storm too, if Davos had not got him off to the Stepstones. Stannis' justifications for killing these two show he can bend like a pretzel when it serves his ambition, that his Iron sense of Justice only makes his ambition blind, so blind that when he sees his own death, he mistakes it for Joffrey's. "I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning … burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?"(ASoS,Ch.54 Davos V)

 

[Walda]

double post, sorry

[Minsc]

Stannis was seen visiting brothels with Jon Arryn, Robert was not suspected to know about the incest. Though he would have had Stannis told him.

Meaning the situation has changed for both Robert and Stannis thus you cannot say one is safe because of the past while the other isn't.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Walda, I would assume that Jon Arryn was convinced, and that he was trying to build a case as quietly as possible. That's why he was inquiring into breeding practices. 

[John Doe]

Again, Robert could not be suspected to know, Stannis could. Important difference.

[Ser Leftwich]

Barra's birth probably spurred on the idea. Robert went to see the baby, word leaks that the baby is his, someone (Varys, Jon Arryn, LF, or Stannis) figures the crown should provide for the child. Stannis sees the baby and notes the black hair. Robert almost definitely had a bastard at Storm's End, as Stannis lived there the first 20 years of his life (in addition to Edric Storm), who Stannis knows has the Baratheon look. Stannis thinks "Hmmm, maybe I will talk to Jon Arryn about this." Mya Stone comes up, either just in Jon Arryn mind or Jon mentions it to Stannis.