Masculinity

[Magnar of Skagos]

5 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Right, I gotcha. I was just trying to add a lil humor. Your right though, I've heard guys called pussy before for what they were drinking. Some would let it bother them, others are just fine with it. Hell, that actually might be a good test to see if someone is in touch with their feminine side or not.

I'd have to agree with you here. I know a few of these people that call each other pussies for something as ridiculous as their choice of beverage one night. Tell-tale indicator that someone is trying too hard draw attention away from their own insecurities.

[Red Tiger]

24 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Right, I gotcha. I was just trying to add a lil humor. Your right though, I've heard guys called pussy before for what they were drinking. Some would let it bother them, others are just fine with it. Hell, that actually might be a good test to see if someone is in touch with their feminine side or not.

The breakthrough for me was the whole losing the vriginity thing. Out of my friend group I was the last to do so, but my friends were constantly in their own heads about "getting as many girls as possible" and they would feel emasculated when they struck out with girls. I was more secure with being a virgin than they were being "ladykillers". I kept thinking to myself "is this real life"? I could not believe that this stuff was giving them this much anguish and I never took masculine stereotypes seriously again.

[Altherion]

16 hours ago, Darzin said:

Well I think a large part of all this is the changing economy and changing roles. As these stabilize we should see some of this fade.

Why do you think that they will stabilize? If anything, the forces that provoked the changes (automation in its various forms) are as strong as they ever were and are continuing to destroy "traditionally masculine" jobs.

[jarl the climber]

That's sort of odd without quoting anyone there seems to be a consensus that masculinity is determined by others, society or technology and that the individual male has no real self determination in deciding what it means for himself.

[Iskaral Pust]

I haven't paid attention before to this sleazy fringe but I wonder if the core motivation is really anything new. Human society has for a very long time been moving away from interpersonal violence, rape, patriarchy and, lately, physicality in labor -- all areas where men had an advantage over women and so were linked to masculinity. I suspect each era had its own disenfranchised men who resented and blamed the latest move away from a nostalgic ideal of masculinity: hunters become farmers, warriors become civilians, farmers become factory workers, etc.

One irony is that we have not yet shed expectations, whether biological or sociological, that powerful men are more attractive to women, but the route to power has shifted dramatically and become more feminized: aside from entertainers (including athletes), most wealth and power now lies with sissy knowledge workers. We are primates obsessed with social hierarchy. This fringe sounds like resentful betas/losers who are trying to convince themselves that they're not really the sad sacks the world tells them they are. But if they want to withdraw into sulky, posturing bachelor colonies (pretty common in nature), I wouldn't pay too much heed to their self-righteousness provided we can police their behavior.

Humans as a socially competitive species will always have disenfranchised losers and society will always have to balance between pandering or policing.

[Magnar of Skagos]

5 minutes ago, jarl the climber said:

That's sort of odd without quoting anyone there seems to be a consensus that masculinity is determined by others, society or technology and that the individual male has no real self determination in deciding what it means for himself.

For me personally, my masculinity is not determined by others. I am quite comfortable with myself and don't really feel the need to defend my masculinity from those who decide to tell others what "makes a real man" or not. I really could not care less what society thinks/expects/wants. 

[sologdin]

goodness.  of all the worthless concepts, 'manliness' is the most abject.  

[jarl the climber]

51 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I haven't paid attention before to this sleazy fringe but I wonder if the core motivation is really anything new. Human society has for a very long time been moving away from interpersonal violence, rape, patriarchy and, lately, physicality in labor -- all areas where men had an advantage over women and so were linked to masculinity. I suspect each era had its own disenfranchised men who resented and blamed the latest move away from a nostalgic ideal of masculinity: hunters become farmers, warriors become civilians, farmers become factory workers, etc.

One irony is that we have not yet shed expectations, whether biological or sociological, that powerful men are more attractive to women, but the route to power has shifted dramatically and become more feminized: aside from entertainers (including athletes), most wealth and power now lies with sissy knowledge workers. We are primates obsessed with social hierarchy. This fringe sounds like resentful betas/losers who are trying to convince themselves that they're not really the sad sacks the world tells them they are. But if they want to withdraw into sulky, posturing bachelor colonies (pretty common in nature), I wouldn't pay too much heed to their self-righteousness provided we can police their behavior.

Humans as a socially competitive species will always have disenfranchised losers and society will always have to balance between pandering or policing.

Well, let me ask you this. If you were a woman and one of these disenfranchised losers was your son would you view him that way?

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

6 hours ago, Commodore said:

if you mean manliness

- the ability to provide safety/security/comfort for your family and community

- skills for doing the above (which can include physical strength/stamina)

- instilling virtue in one's offspring (setting an example, issuing discipline, providing guidance/instruction)

 

I am the manliest of men!  I totally rock!

[MerenthaClone]

52 minutes ago, Lany Freelove Strangeways said:

I am the manliest of men!  I totally rock!

Most of my (predominately female) coworkers do too.  Huh.  Almost like the entire concept is outdated.  

[Commodore]

didn't mean to imply those qualities were exclusive to men

 

[Lyanna Stark]

23 hours ago, sologdin said:

am recommending fausto-sterling's sexing the body, which troubles sexual dimorphism as a significant distinction, at least by implication, in a manner similar to how judith butler troubles gender distinctions.  

Excellent read. Thanks for that. Nice complement to Serano's Whipping Girl.

16 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

I don't know what those are, cause I don't drink. But the essence of the quote remains, shame and insecurity only work if you care about living up to a very fragile illusion of masculinity.

 

 

That depends how you frame it. I see it more as the activities or behaviour described in MSJ's post are now within the acceptable realms of masculinity for most people.

There are still activities or behaviour most people would deem as outside that acceptable range. As a rule, if a man moves outside of this acceptable range of masculinity, then you are made to care, because of social pressure. Some examples of this may be boys wearing dresses or make-up, for instance. Or participating in ballets, knitting or other activities that are still strongly associated with femininity. In other words: this highlights how gender expressions change over time with changing trends and norms. 300 years it was not seen as anything strange for men to cry in public. Today that sort of behaviour would not fall within the range of acceptable masculinity. It does show that these things are socially coded, even if a lot of more regressive groups really like to claim how natural all of this is.

[Wise Fool]

So here's a thing - reddit's red pill community. I've been looking at them for a while. And holy shit. Yes, I understand that like most angry internet voices they are harmless. But because of the way harassment and doxxing and cyber war and social media works they are also not, even when they are not Elliot Rodgers type murderous psychopaths. They are rape culture warriors, gleefully championing the vilest traits of man-children. Aggression, contempt, arrogance, insecurity, deceit, pettiness, and so forth. And violence. Love of violence. How I loath these brats. How I'd like to make them eat their idiot words. Such weak, low dogs, not fit to eat scraps from the table of a real man.

[MerenthaClone]

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/

Here, now you can read all about whichever various MRA groups you want without giving the fuckers any ad traffic.  

[Red Tiger]

4 hours ago, Lyanna Stark said:

Excellent read. Thanks for that. Nice complement to Serano's Whipping Girl.

That depends how you frame it. I see it more as the activities or behaviour described in MSJ's post are now within the acceptable realms of masculinity for most people.

There are still activities or behaviour most people would deem as outside that acceptable range. As a rule, if a man moves outside of this acceptable range of masculinity, then you are made to care, because of social pressure. Some examples of this may be boys wearing dresses or make-up, for instance. Or participating in ballets, knitting or other activities that are still strongly associated with femininity. In other words: this highlights how gender expressions change over time with changing trends and norms. 300 years it was not seen as anything strange for men to cry in public. Today that sort of behaviour would not fall within the range of acceptable masculinity. It does show that these things are socially coded, even if a lot of more regressive groups really like to claim how natural all of this is.

I dont think about it this deeply.

[peterbound]

Hmmm, i'm not going to go back and re read all the comments, as I'm sure they are filled with the same thing I'm about to do. 

So manliness.  I work around a lot of the 'red pill' men you talk about.  While I think your description of them is kinda shitty, and a bit fucking judgmental, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as I assume you haven't ran in the same circles as I have, and formed the opinions about different types of folks.  But whatever.  They aren't that bad.  

 

However, that's not to say I agree with them.  For me it's pretty simple.  I take care of my family, I work hard, I provide top cover for my son and my wife so they can enjoy life (although my wife makes more than me, so that's more emotional top cover than financial), I respect my elders, raise my son to be a good man (see all these traits),  I try to leave shit better than I found it, I'm loyal to my friends, I'm a gentlemen with the ladies, and I don't let anyone talk shit about my mother without getting a punch in the mouth, I don't talk shit about people behind their backs, I'm comfortable with conflict (sometimes seek it out), and I try to not take myself too seriously.  For me that's a man. 

I'm pretty square in the middle of traditional masculinity, and I don't give a fuck about feminism or it's effect on my worldview.  If someone can do the job, and be a productive member of society (in any form they choose), I couldn't care less about gender, sex, race, or religion.  

[Red Tiger]

9 minutes ago, peterbound said:

Hmmm, i'm not going to go back and re read all the comments, as I'm sure they are filled with the same thing I'm about to do. 

So manliness.  I work around a lot of the 'red pill' men you talk about.  While I think your description of them is kinda shitty, and a bit fucking judgmental, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as I assume you haven't ran in the same circles as I have, and formed the opinions about different types of folks.  But whatever.  They aren't that bad.  

 

However, that's not to say I agree with them.  For me it's pretty simple.  I take care of my family, I work hard, I provide top cover for my son and my wife so they can enjoy life (although my wife makes more than me, so that's more emotional top cover than financial), I respect my elders, raise my son to be a good man (see all these traits),  I try to leave shit better than I found it, I'm loyal to my friends, I'm a gentlemen with the ladies, and I don't let anyone talk shit about my mother without getting a punch in the mouth, I don't talk shit about people behind their backs, I'm comfortable with conflict (sometimes seek it out), and I try to not take myself too seriously.  For me that's a man. 

I'm pretty square in the middle of traditional masculinity, and I don't give a fuck about feminism or it's effect on my worldview.  If someone can do the job, and be a productive member of society (in any form they choose), I couldn't care less about gender, sex, race, or religion.  

Welp, definitely agree with these.

[sologdin]

the coupling of those traits with 'masculinity' specifically is kinda gross.  why can't they simply be positive traits without reference to gender politics--for though gender is disclaimed, it is always already present in the recitation as traditional masculinity, no? it is in fact a fatal aporia in the presentation.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, sologdin said:

the coupling of those traits with 'masculinity' specifically is kinda gross.  why can't they simply be positive traits without reference to gender politics--for though gender is disclaimed, it is always already present in the recitation as traditional masculinity, no? it is in fact a fatal aporia in the presentation.

Exactly. How is 'working hard' a masculine trait? How is being loyal to your friends a masculine trait? Same with commodore's list:

Quote

 

- the ability to provide safety/security/comfort for your family and community

- skills for doing the above (which can include physical strength/stamina)

- instilling virtue in one's offspring (setting an example, issuing discipline, providing guidance/instruction)

 

If those are masculine traits, what does that say about what you think it is to be feminine? Providing for your family and community is a masculine trait, so women doing it aren't feminine? Or not providing it is a feminine trait? If a  woman is instilling virtue in their children that's a masculine value - so presumably if you're feminine you don't inspire any?

And that doesn't even speak to what is truth in this country about being a man or what masculinity is. The notion that providing for your family is a manly trait when child support is one of the things that men in this country complain loudest about? Hah. The notion that men are the ones instilling virtues when we get frat cultures? Come on. This list is what you think of when you think of admirable men, but it's not what people in the US consider masculine traits at all. 

Some off the top of my head:

• Lack of emotions other than anger, save in very specific circumstances (joy at winning things, sadness in limited ways)
• Acting authoritative regardless of authority ability
• Acting competitively vs. collaboratively
• Lack of any individual style, especially any style that isn't considered mainstream. 
• Heavy involvement or support with sports, especially contact sports
• Any defined musculature
• Any body hair

Note that I am not endorsing or believing that this is what should make someone masculine, only what US society in general perceives it to be. 

 

[peterbound]

the question was specifically what we consider masculinity is.  If the question was about femininity, all those points would be valid, and may of the traits would bleed over.  You want to know what about what people think about femininity, start a fucking thread, but don't put words into our mouths.  We are addressing masculinity here.