Masculinity

[Stego]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

More prone to physical strength. Also, more prone to consume more calories. 

 

Culturally neither are universal. Yes, even body morphology.

Ok, not capable of rational discussion on this subject. Check.

[Kalbear]

Rational meaning not backed up by data like your opinions? Yep.

There are several tribes where women have been the primary consumers of the food as well as the primary gainers of calories. They aren't common, but they do exist.

[Tears of Lys]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 2:11 PM, Kalbear said:

Like I said, there are only a couple universal traits: more prone to using violence, more prone to being the leaders, more likely to be the older one in a marriage. That's it. 

I would add: more innate ability to consume mass quantities of alcohol - although, there are a few outliers in the female population who put the lie to this general truism. 

As for "more prone to being the leaders," I would say that those of the feminine persuasion tend to observe this phenomenon with an arched eyebrow and a benign indulgence.

[peterbound]

Rational meaning not backed up by data like your opinions? Yep.

They aren't common, but they do exist.

See what you did right there? You validated your opponents argument, you lost.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, peterbound said:

15 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Rational meaning not backed up by data like your opinions? Yep.They aren't common, but they do exist.

See what you did right there? You validated your opponents argument, you lost.

 

 

Uh, what?

There is at least one culture that gives women calories more than men. I knew that. Stego didn't. Sorry if that wasn't clearer - but the notion that men universally consume more calories is not true, and is not a sign of masculinity. In that group from Mauritania it is a sign of femininity.

[peterbound]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 

 

Uh, what?

There is at least one culture that gives women calories more than men. I knew that. Stego didn't. Sorry if that wasn't clearer - but the notion that men universally consume more calories is not true, and is not a sign of masculinity. In that group from Mauritania it is a sign of femininity.

But, by and large, the opposite is true.  

For every argument there is some bullshit deviation from the norm.  You can't base shit on that, and when you do, your argument makes no fucking sense, and looks a little desperate. 

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, peterbound said:

But, by and large, the opposite is true.  

For every argument there is some bullshit deviation from the norm.  You can't base shit on that, and when you do, your argument makes no fucking sense, and looks a little desperate. 

Actually that's not really the case. The universal ones i stated are pretty much non-deviating. You can, actually, base shit on that when you're talking about what things might be based on human conditions in general - because when you find things that contradict it you find out that what you thought was true, well, isn't. 

Stego said that it's a universal case that men eat more calories in societies. That isn't truth, and there's a few examples of it out there. The Mauritania one is one such example; there are others. 

I'm not sure why this looks desperate save that it's an argument that beats someone who says something with no actual scientific or even anthropological backing. If 'bringing up facts' is desperate, well, that explains a whole lot about why you'd support someone like Trump. 

[MerenthaClone]

5 minutes ago, peterbound said:

But, by and large, the opposite is true.  

For every argument there is some bullshit deviation from the norm.  You can't base shit on that, and when you do, your argument makes no fucking sense, and looks a little desperate. 

When you're trying to argue that masculinity has some form of trait attached to the Y chromosome instead of that trait being related to how a society views the people who possess physical traits commonly associated with a Y chromosome, those deviations are important. If certain societies associate increased caloric intake with "not masculinity", then increased caloric intake is not an inherent trait to "men" 

[Free Northman Reborn]

WTF does "increased caloric intake" have to do with masculinity?

What kind of weird twilight zone do these pseudo-philosophers in this forum inhabit? So men have more muscle mass, burn more energy and eat more food as a result. Big deal. This is a response to men's higher calory needs, not a sign of their inherent masculinity. Energy in, energy out. Can't have the second without the first.

And so some cultures have traditions where they have the women take in more food (apparently). So what? Some cultures also walk around with friggin weights dangling from men's penises to stretch them out, or have their women insert big ass wedges in front of their lower teeth to stretch out their bottom lips.

WTF does the fact that some cultures like fat women and skinny-ass men as a result of reversed caloric intakes have to do with masculinity?

All it tells you is that you get weird friggin cultures out there.

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

WTF does "increased caloric intake" have to do with masculinity?

What kind of weird twilight zone do these pseudo-philosophers in this forum inhabit? So men have more muscle mass, burn more energy and eat more food as a result. Big deal. This is a response to men's higher calory needs, not a sign of their inherent masculinity. Energy in, energy out. Can't have the second without the first.

And so some cultures have traditions where they have the women take in more food (apparently). So what? Some cultures also walk around with friggin weights dangling from men's penises to stretch them out, or have their women insert big ass wedges in front of their lower teeth to stretch out their bottom lips.

WTF does the fact that some cultures like fat women and skinny-ass men as a result of reversed caloric intakes have to do with masculinity?

All it tells you is that you get weird friggin cultures out there.

It also tells you that increased eating is not by itself a universal masculine trait. Any more than stretching penises with weights is a universal  masculine trait. 

Which is what we were talking about. 

So the answer is that caloric intake has nothing to do with masculinity from a universal, anthropological cultural perspective. The claim was that it did. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It also tells you that increased eating is not by itself a universal masculine trait. Any more than stretching penises with weights is a universal  masculine trait. 

Which is what we were talking about. 

So the answer is that caloric intake has nothing to do with masculinity from a universal, anthropological cultural perspective. The claim was that it did. 

Makes sense.

That said, surely living beings will naturally eat according to their energy needs. And if both a man and woman use their muscle mass to its full potential, men will generally require more calories to generate the energy necessary to fuel their activities than women will.

But if some people deliberately choose to reverse that feeding pattern, well, whatever.

[Kalbear]

The thing about humans is that many tribes have their energy needs met and easily exceeded. So at that point, what you choose to eat is more of a cultural choice. We have almost no examples of tribes that are living at or below subsistence, but what we do have indicates that women get more of the food in that circumstance, largely due to needs for breastfeeding and gestation. 

In any case, it's not a universally masculine thing to eat more. (it's also not, as ToL said, a univeral masculine thing to drink more alcohol either). 

[TerraPrime]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That said, surely living beings will naturally eat according to their energy needs.

Do you really think this is true? If so, how will we explain the issue of obesity in America? Or, in fact, obesity anywhere else?

The fact is that eating is a cultural habit as much as dating and family structures are. In the US itself, we see a division along gender lines in terms of eating habits. Women tend to be more balanced eaters and eat more vegetables and fruits than men do. Women also tend to diet more than men do. Think of the stereotype that a man will order a steak and skip the salad whereas the woman will order an entree salad with chicken - does not that play into gender role expectations? Have you not encountered derisions against vegan men as not manly because they are weak and they don't eat meat?

[Larry of the Lawn]

On 1/22/2016 at 7:43 PM, MercifulChief said:

Masculinity is an interesting subject for me.  It is something that was a sense of measurement and worth for me a good bit of my life. 

First my dad,  a stoic war hardened laborer who balanced caring and providing for a family and his home with hunting, fishing and shooting.

As an undersized lad interested more in the history of guns than the shooting of them who spent a lot of time reading or drawing I had little in common with this man I admired.

To make matters worse the males who were my peers were entrenched in a 1950s idea of gender. I was well known as 'the fag.' I fought this and them. Between 10 and 18 I fought (and often lost) to anyone who challenged me. It didn't make me more masculine.  I didn't become accepted,  just more alienated.

Only through the combat sport of wrestling  (which I was good at) did I gain a semblance of acceptance.  But I knew it was only associated with my sporting persona. It did not translate into a girlfriend or romantic involvement. 

I realized in my 20's that the females had a far more difficult time trying to find a place in this toxic land of high school and painful backwoods ideas on everything from race to gender to education. No wonder they didn't want to date me. 

Strangely or appropriately I end up in the career path of a chef. Built on a military hierarchy kitchens traditionally are some of the most unwelcoming sexist and masculine environments one can work in outside the actual military, fire department,  police. Etc.

For years I was the standard ambitious  cook. It was all about avoiding your chefs scrutiny while making sure all around you knew you had a big dick. Kitchens can be a sick brotherhood based on a mutual goal but still with a desire to be the best and make sure the rest of them know it.

Nearing 40 now I am more secure as a man. Helps to see more of the world and to not let my career guide me as solidly as it once did. 

But no matter what I know my travels are easier than a gay man, the trans or a woman who has to traverse the highway of masculinity.


 

This is so familiar to me, thanks for posting it.  Substitute "wrestling" for "drinking and smoking and hiking" and "cooking" for "masonry" and it really hits home.  

 

One thing that I really remember from my teens:  At work as a laborer for my dad building chimneys,  I started talking about books or pottery or something while we were eating lunch with a bunch of the other contractors and my dad pulled me aside after lunch and told me in a really worried tone "You can't talk about that shit here, you sound like a faggot."  Then he asked, very concerned "You're not, are you?"

It was a really weird moment, and from then on when I was at work I pretty much didn't talk to anyone at lunch for about 10 years.

[TerraPrime]

You meant poetry? Or do masons have a thing against ceramics :-p

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, TerraPrime said:

You meant poetry? Or do masons have a thing against ceramics :-p

I know, right?

 

[Weeping Sore]

-snip-

[Ormond]

On 1/25/2016 at 10:13 PM, Tears of Lys said:

I would add: more innate ability to consume mass quantities of alcohol - although, there are a few outliers in the female population who put the lie to this general truism. 

 

Well, the problem with making any statements about differences between genders is that there are going to be "outliers" on everything. There is no such thing as a measurable characteristic where there is absolutely no overlap in the distribution. As I understand it, physical aggressiveness is indeed the trait which is more common among men than women in every culture in the world -- but there are always going to be some women who are more physically aggressive than the average man, and some men who are less physically aggressive than the average woman. 

[sologdin]

is there any alleged trait that is more diverse between each alleged 'sex' (whatever the fuck that is) than among each alleged 'sex' (however many there might be)?  

[peterbound]

20 minutes ago, sologdin said:

is there any alleged trait that is more diverse between each alleged 'sex' (whatever the fuck that is) than among each alleged 'sex' (however many there might be)?  

penis and lack of penis?