Masculinity

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, peterbound said:

the question was specifically what we consider masculinity is.  If the question was about femininity, all those points would be valid, and may of the traits would bleed over.  You want to know what about what people think about femininity, start a fucking thread, but don't put words into our mouths.  We are addressing masculinity here.  

Okay then - how is a trait that can be both masculine and feminine be a masculine trait? That doesn't make any sense at all. You wouldn't call that a masculine trait - you'd call that a human trait. 

If you consider masculine traits to be things that can define either sex, then that isn't a masculine trait by definition and you're using the word wrong. 

[TerraPrime]

Some of the conflict arises from the ambiguity of English. 

One way to interpret "masculine trait" is to say the traits that which makes one person appear to others as masculine. 

Another way to interpret "masculine trait" is to say the traits that are shared by most people who are perceived to be masculine. 

Seems that Kalbear and solo are asking about the first, and peterbound was replying with the second. 

 

I also think people who say that they are not personally affected by gender roles or social ideas of masculinity are wrong. They are. The fact that you go to work wearing a pair of pants instead of a skirt is a result of social expectations of masculinity and/or gender roles for men. When a man is called a "pussy" for doing something that is sneaky or that avoids confrontation, when a man is described as being "pussy whipped" when his wife/gf seems to make calls about their joint life, when a man is described as someone else's "bitch" when he takes the follower's role - these are all examples of punishment for violating the socially accepted notion of masculinity. So if you've used these terms in these ways, then you have already bought in to the social definition of masculinity. It is true that some take less cues from social norms on the idea of masculinity than others do, but we are affected by the aggregated effect of gender in our lives. 

Here's another example: do another round of the board game of "there's one lifeboat that holds 50 people and there are 500 people on this ship: who gets to go on the lifeboat." I am willing to bet a cup of coffee that some of the people who say they are above the influence of masculinity will still, somehow, feel obligated to pick mostly men to stay behind and put mostly women and children on the lifeboat. 

Unlike feminism, where there are/were quantifiable and documented ill effects against women, the exploration of masculine identification is often stymied at the first step, which is the awareness in problematizing social phenomenons. Sadly, this step is often hijacked by reactionary misogynists, hence the appearance of #notallmen and such. Even in clear-cut cases like admitting women to combat roles where men are discriminated against by virtue of, for a long time, being the only gender sent to very dangerous roles, the push-back against that is much stronger from amongst men and often framed in misogyny. This ought to be a men's rights issue - to not have to shoulder the burden of taking risks in the military alone - but it's not. Because, coming full circle, not willing to let a woman take a bullet for you is one dimension of masculinity in our culture. 

In many ways, with the work done by feminists, one would expect the exploration of the masculine identity to be easier because there's a template and we can see where the pitfalls might be. But in practice, feminism actually becomes an irresistable red herring to so many men exploring the issues we face. They mis-attribute the source of the problems to feminism, when feminism is just the light used in exposing the structural issues in our culture. 

[Kalbear]

 

Quote

 

Another way to interpret "masculine trait" is to say the traits that are shared by most people who are perceived to be masculine. 

Seems that Kalbear and solo are asking about the first, and peterbound was replying with the second. 

 

Yeah, sorry, that still doesn't fly. Working hard isn't a masculine trait; women aren't considered masculine if they work hard. Being loyal to your friends doesn't make a woman more masculine. 

[TerraPrime]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 

Yeah, sorry, that still doesn't fly. Working hard isn't a masculine trait; women aren't considered masculine if they work hard. Being loyal to your friends doesn't make a woman more masculine. 

If we get the top 500 most-masculine men poll, you don't think hard-working and loyalty to friends will show up as a commonly shared trait? 

[Bonesy]

I too feel that it should be both, but after a moments reflection it makes no sense if we consider masculine opposite to feminine.

Should we?

[Kalbear]

I don't. I doubt either would make a top 10.

As an example the rock is someone I would suspect most people would consider pretty masculine. Who are his friends?

[Kalbear]

I too feel that it should be both, but after a moments reflection it makes no sense if we consider masculine opposite to feminine.

Should we?

Dunno if we shoild, but that is typically how they are presented in the US. ]

[TerraPrime]

I don't know. I don't follow The Rock's social circle. But stereotype wise, I think if you ask people "how likely is Wayne Johnson aka The Rock to "have your back" and come through for you at difficult times if he were your good friend," you'd get a lot of guesses that he will, as opposed to say, I don't know, Johnny Depp or someone considered to be less macho-masculine. 

I do know there's a show called "Band of brothers" and not "Band of sisters." I also know there are sayings like "bros before hos." I also know that the one of the most idealistic masculine badass thing you can do is to go back into the war zone and drag out your brothers-in-arms. In Chinese culture, the concept of "friendship loyalty" or "義氣" is eclipsed in importance only by loyalty to one's parents, i.e. filial duties. Watch any of the gangster movies from that region and you will see no end of glorifying that aspect in the context of manly man. 

[Theda Baratheon]

I never know how to feel about this topic because on the flip side I have no idea how or even if I do in anyway feel connected to femininity. I am a woman. I know that and feel comfortable in that but...what the fuck does it really mean? I have absolutely no idea if I am feminine at all - I don't really feel like it and I don't really care or think about it very much at all so I'm sure there must be plenty of guys ij similar situations but with masculinity instead? I dunno. I just (hippy music) want to be a good person the rest doesnt really matter to me 

[Melphis Amekia]

Ideally, if we could have "what a decent human being would do" traits as something to form our opinions about others on instead of subjecting to judging people by their "masculine" and/or "feminine" traits(which are just another thing to divide us as humans, as people), that would make things so much easier. Alas, we do not.

My stance in general has always been that we should cut/ignore/stop caring about as many societal constructs as it is possible that divide us(race, nation, religion, gender/sex divisions, etc.). To be on topic(and ignore the other possible discussion issues), the problem isn't just that we have desired "masculine" and "feminine" traits, it's that we seperate males and females as if they are other entities instead of humans. There is stuff that is different, yes, but nowhere near enough that such a division should have ever existed in the first place.

My best friend by far is female. If we went by what we consider traditionally masculine traits/conceptions(which are very similar in Croatia as in the US, though a bit more pronounced), being best friends with a woman in the first place wouldn't be possible. I would also have to prove that I am better than her in every way, even though I am nowhere near the artist she is just like she isn't the writer I am, and not only that, I would have to not encourage her in doing her art, which is of course the opposite of what I am doing. I would have to keep the shit I went through in myself instead of, as I did, tell her all of that honestly and earnestly because I knew she would understand and try to help; and if she had any problems I would have to dismiss them instead of supporting her and giving her the best advice I could give. And not only that, I believe only one of my friends out of all the people I know truly believe we are "just" best friends, because really that's impossible, isn't it? I could go on...

Now, when the other guys on this thread read about this and say "but that is what being masculine means" or whatever, NO. That is what a decent human being who doesn't care about the division between male and female means. That is my opinion. I do not claim I do it perfectly or that I have achieved the "complete dissonance in contrast to the traditional societal influences", because I haven't. But I always try to do anything a decent human being would do because that would be a thing a decent human being would do, not because it would mean being masculine/feminine/whatever or because I connect it to that, just like I do apprently romantic stuff without meaning them to be romantic because doing that stuff feels like a good thing to do for its own sake and not for the concept of romance.

[Dr. Pepper]

When I think of masculinity, I always think of things like bubble wrap or styrofoam peanuts, because #MasculinitySoFragile.

[Tears of Lys]

4 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I never know how to feel about this topic because on the flip side I have no idea how or even if I do in anyway feel connected to femininity. I am a woman. I know that and feel comfortable in that but...what the fuck does it really mean? I have absolutely no idea if I am feminine at all - I don't really feel like it and I don't really care or think about it very much at all so I'm sure there must be plenty of guys ij similar situations but with masculinity instead? I dunno. I just (hippy music) want to be a good person the rest doesnt really matter to me 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Darzin]

6 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I never know how to feel about this topic because on the flip side I have no idea how or even if I do in anyway feel connected to femininity. I am a woman. I know that and feel comfortable in that but...what the fuck does it really mean? I have absolutely no idea if I am feminine at all - I don't really feel like it and I don't really care or think about it very much at all so I'm sure there must be plenty of guys ij similar situations but with masculinity instead? I dunno. I just (hippy music) want to be a good person the rest doesnt really matter to me 

As a man, this is pretty much where I am. Well said. 

[lessthanluke]

7 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I never know how to feel about this topic because on the flip side I have no idea how or even if I do in anyway feel connected to femininity. I am a woman. I know that and feel comfortable in that but...what the fuck does it really mean? I have absolutely no idea if I am feminine at all - I don't really feel like it and I don't really care or think about it very much at all so I'm sure there must be plenty of guys ij similar situations but with masculinity instead? I dunno. I just (hippy music) want to be a good person the rest doesnt really matter to me 

Yup exactly the same here. Think we've talked about this before.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

On 1/19/2016 at 2:26 AM, Iskaral Pust said:

I haven't paid attention before to this sleazy fringe but I wonder if the core motivation is really anything new. Human society has for a very long time been moving away from interpersonal violence, rape, patriarchy and, lately, physicality in labor -- all areas where men had an advantage over women and so were linked to masculinity. I suspect each era had its own disenfranchised men who resented and blamed the latest move away from a nostalgic ideal of masculinity: hunters become farmers, warriors become civilians, farmers become factory workers, etc.

One irony is that we have not yet shed expectations, whether biological or sociological, that powerful men are more attractive to women, but the route to power has shifted dramatically and become more feminized: aside from entertainers (including athletes), most wealth and power now lies with sissy knowledge workers. We are primates obsessed with social hierarchy. This fringe sounds like resentful betas/losers who are trying to convince themselves that they're not really the sad sacks the world tells them they are. But if they want to withdraw into sulky, posturing bachelor colonies (pretty common in nature), I wouldn't pay too much heed to their self-righteousness provided we can police their behavior.

Humans as a socially competitive species will always have disenfranchised losers and society will always have to balance between pandering or policing.

Hmm. I don't necessarily disagree with your points as such, but if we are talking about the "red pilled" (or what you want to call it) subculture in particular as opposed to disenfranchised men at large, I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. 

To sum up what I've seen these groups rather tend to take the perspectives of precisely those "sissy knowledge workers" you mention, who they think ought to be on the top of the sexual hierarchy because of their money and power, but where even so the women still choose to sleep with the dumb, macho "douchebags". Only to settle for one of the previously mentioned knowledge workers when they get older and less attractive, and want some rich guy to provide for them. Hence these groups then reach the conclusion that the most important factor for getting some is to appear like an "alpha" rather than being nice or smart or whatever, which is the reason for their pretty unpleasant advice on how to behave when dealing with women.  

That's my impression of their core philosophy. 

[TrackerNeil]

10 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

This ought to be a men's rights issue - to not have to shoulder the burden of taking risks in the military alone - but it's not. Because, coming full circle, not willing to let a woman take a bullet for you is one dimension of masculinity in our culture. 

A real men's rights movement would in my view take up issues like this, or the higher rates of death by homicide, prison rape, etc. The movement would be complementary to feminism, and not stand in opposition to it.

[Magnar of Skagos]

18 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

When I think of masculinity, I always think of things like bubble wrap or styrofoam peanuts, because #MasculinitySoFragile.

This is one of the things I see on social media that I don't understand. There are several movements (often, but perhaps not always so) associated with the modern feminist "movement" (maybe it's just tumblr feminists, I really don't know, I have only seen it posted on a few pro-feminist pages) which speak about how it doesn't really make sense for men to feel like they have to be these emotionless, firm-all-the-time figures, but then when a man acts more sensitive, or opens up regarding his feeling uncomfortable about the way things about they or their gender are perceived, they are met with "#MasculinitySoFragile" "lol #MaleTears faggot"

I'm only asking you because you used the hashtag. Can you explain? I don't see the purpose behind this?

[Dr. Pepper]

46 minutes ago, Hrokkan of Skagos said:

This is one of the things I see on social media that I don't understand. There are several movements (often, but perhaps not always so) associated with the modern feminist "movement" (maybe it's just tumblr feminists, I really don't know, I have only seen it posted on a few pro-feminist pages) which speak about how it doesn't really make sense for men to feel like they have to be these emotionless, firm-all-the-time figures, but then when a man acts more sensitive, or opens up regarding his feeling uncomfortable about the way things about they or their gender are perceived, they are met with "#MasculinitySoFragile" "lol #MaleTears faggot"

I'm only asking you because you used the hashtag. Can you explain? I don't see the purpose behind this?

By any chance did you read the linked article?  When I was browsing for something to link, I thought the LA Times article was probably the most accessible and concise.  I think the closing lines sums it up rather well:

Quote

 

The fear of emasculation is so ingrained in our society that it can make men violent, and make men afraid to touch each other or buy a pink iPhone.  

That's how fragile masculinity is.  It is so fragile that it can be exploited to sell cotton swabs. 

And it can even be fatal. 

 

 

[Kalbear]

Orgasmo had the best answer.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DoiXaT_1I-vw&ved=0ahUKEwi2pJKWvrnKAhUJ82MKHRFvAHUQyCkIHTAA&usg=AFQjCNFHN4fee1DRGZV0EBWLexTTKUrXQA

[karaddin]

Any feminist that would use a homophobic slur for any reason, let alone for a man genuinely expressing feelings, is not a genuine one and hurting her own purported cause. I'm not denying that they exist, but I sure as hell wouldn't defend them and it's not representative of anyone I've seen using that hashtag.

What that is actually having a go at it the societal construct of masculinity being described in part in here, which will admittedly be critical by extension of those men who do actually buy into it, but it's hard to take any profession of feeling seriously from someone who is defending a masculinity that decries emotion other than anger. It's not mocking men who are constrained by that box and want to break free (go put Queen on now).

Most mockery that I see of men from feminists when feelings are expressed are to do with the sense of entitlement that still pervades what is being said, which is obviously not all men but you spend a while online as a woman and you'll get to know it.

I was largely trying to stay out of this thread, my views on the popular perception of masculinity are quite critical and complex and I felt like the thread was more for men so wasn't going to insert my viewpoint, but felt that hashtag could very easily be taken as something its not.