Hodor's Aunt Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 What I wonder since the first time I read the story is, wether it really would be possible for a dwarf like Tyrion to kill a young, healthy and full grown woman like shae with his bare hands by strangling her. When I read the story I thought about it and reasoned that Tyrion had fought in battle so he might have trained his strengths and it could do. But when I watched the scene on the TV show I was quite convinced that it would be impossible for Tyrion to kill her. I like Peter Dinklage and his play on the show a lot, but that scene was rather ridiculous. It only kinda "worked" because Shae would stop fighting at once after he pulls the golden chains she wears (not the chain of the hand as in the books). The gold in the chains could not be very pure btw, because else the chains would break in the attempt. But anyway. Shae would not scream to summon help (Tywin).... That scene is really absurd IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodofthedragon1995 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 It does seem quite impossible that a little dwarf would be overpower a normal sized healthy woman. However, i think the incident happened because Tyrion was so full of adrenaline and anger at Shae's 'betrayal'. This gave him the strength to kill her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I'm surprised this is the scene you pick to question Tyrions abilities. If he can kill full grown men in battle he can kill an untrained woman. Him killing full grown men in battle is a whole other thing, but if thats what GRRM wants... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I think the motivation is important. Tyrion's actions are fuelled by Jaime's revelations which elicit a powerful emotional response, heightened further by Shae's presence in Tywin's bed. Such an emotionally charged state and motive could give him the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 If we've learned anything from LOTR, it's that a dwarf can fight full grown men and win. Besides, Tyrion is Jaime's brother, he's bound to have some genuine physical strength and skill taught into him over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Man Racey Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Tyrion most likely suffers from achondroplastic dwarfism. Individuals with this condition have a limited range of motion but are often very physically strong. Tyrion's being able to strangle Shae, a small woman, is not at all absurd. Especially when considering that he doesn't do it with just his hands, but has the mechanical advantage of a garrote to assist him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I'm surprised this is the scene you pick to question Tyrions abilities. If he can kill full grown men in battle he can kill an untrained woman. Him killing full grown men in battle is a whole other thing, but if thats what GRRM wants... This. Twice, no less. But I've come to accept that Tyrion's physicality really depends on the plot. Like, one minute he gets cramps climbing stairs, the next he's doing cartwheels like it's nobody's business, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Hodor's Aunt said: What I wonder since the first time I read the story is, wether it really would be possible for a dwarf like Tyrion to kill a young, healthy and full grown woman like shae with his bare hands by strangling her. When I read the story I thought about it and reasoned that Tyrion had fought in battle so he might have trained his strengths and it could do. Yes, that. Plus, Shae didn't physically fight back, she tried to rely on her feminine wiles, and they proved to be completely ineffective. Quote But when I watched the scene on the TV show No. You watched a scene on the TV show. A different scene, inspired by the novels, but fundamentally different nevertheless. Anyway, what show? We talk the books here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damosel in Distress Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Men are roughly a minimum of twice the strength of women on average, anyway. (Or even thrice?) Assuming Shae is of average female strength and Tyrion possesses average male amounts of testosterone, then I assume their physical strength would be about equal given Tyrion's reduced muscle mass. However, the nature of testosterone adds not just strength to the muscles, but also increases overall aggression. It's very hard for any woman to overpower a man of even lower athletic capabilities, so I find the scene believable enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 For me far greater mistery is how did he kill all those men on Blackwater???? Those were knights, I mean I love him, but this just seems unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I'm surprised this is the scene you pick to question Tyrions abilities. If he can kill full grown men in battle he can kill an untrained woman. Him killing full grown men in battle is a whole other thing, but if thats what GRRM wants... I don't find this too absurd. If the sharp end of a battleaxe hits you in an unarmoured area, it's likely to seriously injure or kill you, whether it's swung by an adult dwarf or an 8 year old child, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said: I think the motivation is important. Tyrion's actions are fuelled by Jaime's revelations which elicit a powerful emotional response, heightened further by Shae's presence in Tywin's bed. Such an emotionally charged state and motive could give him the advantage. Shae is literally fighting for her life - her motivation is at least the equal of Tyrion's. I don't think this works as an argument. 11 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said: I don't find this too absurd. If the sharp end of a battleaxe hits you in an unarmoured area, it's likely to seriously injure or kill you, whether it's swung by an adult dwarf or an 8 year old child, no? A child couldn't swing a battleaxe. Those things are heavy. As I understand, most medieval warfare, at least between armoured opponents, was about bludgeoning each other - it's all about physical strength. But I really don't know whether a male dwarf could legitimately beat a healthy female in a contest of strength. A quick Google doesn't tell me. Any medics are welcome to chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 22 minutes ago, dariopatke said: For me far greater mistery is how did he kill all those men on Blackwater???? Those were knights, I mean I love him, but this just seems unrealistic. It seems that both Jaime and Tyrion have an almost magical battle ability that causes time to slow down for them in combat - in that scene Tyrion describes the battle as appearing to happen in slow motion at one point, and is reminded of a similar experience Jaime described to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: It seems that both Jaime and Tyrion have an almost magical battle ability that causes time to slow down for them in combat - in that scene Tyrion describes the battle as appearing to happen in slow motion at one point, and is reminded of a similar experience Jaime described to him. I think that's just a description of adrenaline rather than magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 43 minutes ago, dariopatke said: For me far greater mistery is how did he kill all those men on Blackwater???? Those were knights, I mean I love him, but this just seems unrealistic. To be fair, I remember he killed a guy by puncturing his horse's belly with the spike on his helmet. The horse then went nuts and dropped the dude and fell on top of him. That, I thought, wasn't that farfetched (and pretty awesome, too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 22 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said: I think that's just a description of adrenaline rather than magic. Possible, but I am not sure about that. There are a lot of battles described and none are described as Tyrion's experiences are. The skilled warriors that Tyrion dispatches with ease would also be experiencing adrenaline as well. This is a series where magical special abilities are often associated with a bloodline, and Jaime has been considered one of, if not THE, greatest swordsmen since he was a teen, and he received less training than many children of great lords, since Tywin made him study his letters for four hours a day due to his dyslexia. I think it's definitely possible that both Jaime and Tyrion have a special ability conferred by birth. If the enhanced perception is a true special trait, that allows a dwarf with little training to effortlessly kill multiple trained warriors, then that edge would make someone who was trained extremely deadly, as all agree that Jaime is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Just now, A Song of Ass and Fire said: Possible, but I am not sure about that. There are a lot of battles described and none are described as Tyrion's experiences are. The skilled warriors that Tyrion dispatches with ease would also be experiencing adrenaline as well. This is a series where magical special abilities are often associated with a bloodline, and Jaime has been considered one of, if not THE, greatest swordsmen since he was a teen, and he received less training than many children of great lords, since Tywin made him study his letters for four hours a day due to his dyslexia. I think it's definitely possible that both Jaime and Tyrion have a special ability conferred by birth. If the enhanced perception is a true special trait, that allows a dwarf with little training to effortlessly kill multiple trained warriors, then that edge would make someone who was trained extremely dealt, as all she Jaime is. I don't really see what magical Matrix time would really bring to the series or mean or whatever. The description given matchers perfectly with something a great deal of people feel in the real world with sports, etc. Btw, I don't think there's any evidence that Jaime has dyslexia in the books, nor any mention of having to spend inordinate time on learning to read. He reads just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mountain That Flies Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Red Man Racey said: Tyrion most likely suffers from achondroplastic dwarfism. Individuals with this condition have a limited range of motion but are often very physically strong. Tyrion's being able to strangle Shae, a small woman, is not at all absurd. Especially when considering that he doesn't do it with just his hands, but has the mechanical advantage of a garrote to assist him. Added to these astute observations is the fact that Shae has even less combat experience than Tyrion, at least that we know of. She may have never been involved in physical violence in her life, so at a purely mental level he had the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChromeWeasel Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Hodor's Aunt said: What I wonder since the first time I read the story is, wether it really would be possible for a dwarf like Tyrion to kill a young, healthy and full grown woman like shae with his bare hands by strangling her. When I read the story I thought about it and reasoned that Tyrion had fought in battle so he might have trained his strengths and it could do. But when I watched the scene on the TV show I was quite convinced that it would be impossible for Tyrion to kill her. I like Peter Dinklage and his play on the show a lot, but that scene was rather ridiculous. It only kinda "worked" because Shae would stop fighting at once after he pulls the golden chains she wears (not the chain of the hand as in the books). The gold in the chains could not be very pure btw, because else the chains would break in the attempt. But anyway. Shae would not scream to summon help (Tywin).... That scene is really absurd IMO. Tyrion in the books is a much different physical character than Tyrion in the show. Book Tyrion is a deformed freak with relatively long, powerful arms and a strong chest. Book Tyrion is short because his legs are crooked and tiny. Book Tyrion also has two different colored eyes and some other deformities. He's not a midget or a dwarf in the sense that Peter Dinklidge is. Book Tyrion is capable of walking on his hands, doing somersaults, and is very physically capable of kicking ass when he only needs to use the top half of his body. Show Tyrion is a relatively good looking, run of the mill little person. His body and limbs are underdeveloped but consistent. His arms are short, his legs are short, and he's overall just a normal person with normal dwarfism. Dinklage is a lot better looking overall than Book Tyrion, but Book Tyrion is far more athletic. GRR Martin has pointed out that his character and Peter Dinklage do not look the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime4Brienne Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I think Tyrion has the advantage of a smaller size with a heavier weight. Shae was both taller and thinner than he was. I think she would have a hard time throwing him off of her because he has a better center of gravity. Not to mention he is highly motivated to kill her. I just re-read the passage and when she first sees him her eyes fill with tears and she's trying to win his sympathy. She is completely unprepared for what is going to happen. She calls him "her giant of Lannister" and that was her big mistake. Not to mention Tyrion also had the leverage of having the chain in his hand. It says he twists it and it immediately dug into her neck so she didn't have a lot of time to fight him off. In conclusion I think yes, Tyrion could kill Shae like its described in the books and she couldn't have fought him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.