Star Wars Rebels (All Star Wars Spoilers)

[Jaxom 1974]

14 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Thought it was pretty good overall. Definitely the best episode of Rebels. Not totally sold on the Apache Inquisitorcopters though. And I felt that they cheapened the ending by having them both come out basically fine. Lots of build up for very little pay-off there.

 

Yeah, the KotoR stuff is largely implicit, not explicit, so it's only possible at best. However, they seem to have robbed Bioware blind of concept art. Just about every Sithy thing in there drew heavily from the Old Republic era Sith architecture, right down to the Star Map, obelisk in the middle of the temple.

Wait. You thought some of the Inquisitors survived? None of the three did. 

I also never realized Sarah Michelle Gellar was the female Inquisitor.

Overall, that was a hell of a season finale.

[ab aeterno]

9 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Wait. You thought some of the Inquisitors survived? None of the three did. 

I also never realized Sarah Michelle Gellar was the female Inquisitor.

Overall, that was a hell of a season finale.

Nah, sorry, I meant Ahsoka and Vader survived.

I thought they cheapened the grand confrontation by having no real pay-off. If we didn't know that Vader will survive it all it might have worked okay, in the way that Luke escaping from Vader in ESB works. But given we know more or less how this turns out in the end, it feels like a bit of a let-down to me. Plus, I kinda feel like it makes Vader seem less frightening/powerful, relative to everyone else. 

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Nah, sorry, I meant Ahsoka and Vader survived.

I thought they cheapened the grand confrontation by having no real pay-off. If we didn't know that Vader will survive it all it might have worked okay, in the way that Luke escaping from Vader in ESB works. But given we know more or less how this turns out in the end, it feels like a bit of a let-down to me. Plus, I kinda feel like it makes Vader seem less frightening/powerful, relative to everyone else. 

Considering what Maul said, I didn't think that. To me, it showed how powerful Ashoka is, not how weak Vader is.

[Jaxom 1974]

16 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Nah, sorry, I meant Ahsoka and Vader survived.

I thought they cheapened the grand confrontation by having no real pay-off. If we didn't know that Vader will survive it all it might have worked okay, in the way that Luke escaping from Vader in ESB works. But given we know more or less how this turns out in the end, it feels like a bit of a let-down to me. Plus, I kinda feel like it makes Vader seem less frightening/powerful, relative to everyone else. 

Yeah.  But I think the power of the moment comes from Asoka NOT leaving and confronting Vader, even as we the audience know that it's futile.  That she (likely) survived, the exact reason why could be a clue to what lurks beneath the surface within Vader that Luke will eventually reach...If Asoka survived, it's because she IS just that powerful and if and when she returns, the writers need to find a proper place for her, be it founding the Knights of Ren, or eventually dying at Vader's hands...

That's a bit of a ramble...basically I think I'm saying that I thought their encounter was powerful and isn't cheapened at all if she did survive...

[ab aeterno]

15 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Considering what Maul said, I didn't think that. To me, it showed how powerful Ashoka is, not how weak Vader is.

Dooku wiped the floor with both Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time (more or less,) Ahsoka only fairly convincingly beat the Inquisitors and fought to a standstill aginst Maul. So Vader is only marginally stronger than Maul and the Inquisitors, given what we see in this episode. Vader is more powerful, but only slightly, so I'd say it's a bit underwhelming. 

If the point is to show Ahsoka as being almost as powerful as Vader I'd be tempted to put that down to Filoni playing favourites, because her randomly being almost as powerful as someone who is canonically supposed to be one of, if not the, most powerful Sith, is a bit weak, IMO. And I say that as a fan of Ahsoka. After all the build up about how Vader is too powerful for them to defeat, he comes away looking strong but far from unbeatable. Not someone who would provoke the kind of reaction we see in S1 from the Grand Inquisitor.

[ab aeterno]

To be clear, I really liked the episode overall, and I think it's by far the best episode of Rebels so far. I just don't really like the section between Vader pushing Ahsoka off the side and Ezra opening the Holocron on the Ghost.

[Jaxom 1974]

2 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Dooku wiped the floor with both Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time (more or less,) Ahsoka only fairly convincingly beat the Inquisitors and fought to a standstill aginst Maul. So Vader is only marginally stronger than Maul and the Inquisitors, given what we see in this episode. Vader is more powerful, but only slightly, so I'd say it's a bit underwhelming. 

 

I think the fight with Dooku suffers from plot expediency and the desire to show how cool computer animation of Yoda fighting is...though you could also argue that he did as well against Obi-Wan and Anakin because Anakin was fighting rashly and not as a team with his Master.  Anakin's power levels were also not as advanced at that point as well.  But that's making excuses...

It isn't out of the realm that Asoka couldn't have gained power in the interim between the end of the Clone Wars and the time of Rebels.  It's what? 4BBY during this point of the story.  Plus, with her rejection of the Order, Asoka seems to draw more on both sides of the Force in her own way.

[ab aeterno]

12 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Yeah.  But I think the power of the moment comes from Asoka NOT leaving and confronting Vader, even as we the audience know that it's futile.  That she (likely) survived, the exact reason why could be a clue to what lurks beneath the surface within Vader that Luke will eventually reach...If Asoka survived, it's because she IS just that powerful and if and when she returns, the writers need to find a proper place for her, be it founding the Knights of Ren, or eventually dying at Vader's hands...

That's a bit of a ramble...basically I think I'm saying that I thought their encounter was powerful and isn't cheapened at all if she did survive...

I think my issue is more that it feels cheap from a narrative standpoint. They wanted the drama of the grand confrontation but without anything actually at stake. 

6 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I think the fight with Dooku suffers from plot expediency and the desire to show how cool computer animation of Yoda fighting is...though you could also argue that he did as well against Obi-Wan and Anakin because Anakin was fighting rashly and not as a team with his Master.  Anakin's power levels were also not as advanced at that point as well.  But that's making excuses...

It isn't out of the realm that Asoka couldn't have gained power in the interim between the end of the Clone Wars and the time of Rebels.  It's what? 4BBY during this point of the story.  Plus, with her rejection of the Order, Asoka seems to draw more on both sides of the Force in her own way.

This is supposed to be Vader basically at the height of his power though, when he's becoming a force feared throughout the universe, and to me at least, here he comes across as totally underwhelming. Compare it to how he's introduced at the beginning of the season, shrugging off everything and just dominating without any effort. To me, the way they presented him here undermines all that. It makes him seem like just another Sith, rather than Darth Vader. That's just me though.

It's not that Ahsoka couldn't have gained power since Clone Wars, it's more how much, relative to how powerful Vader is supposed to be. I can live with her drawing from both sides of the force, but I don't think they showed that very effectively.

I guess (another rambling answer) that my issue is more with the way it's presented on screen, rather than the outcome of their fight. 

[Myrddin]

But was Vader really trying to kill her? (initially, at least. The look through the cracked mask was chilling)

With Ezra, he obviously wasn't even trying to kill him. He was swatting aside his strokes like an adult would a child's.

[Jedi Renee]

6 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Interview with the writer/exec producer for anyone interested;

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/03/31/star-wars-rebels-dave-filoni-on-ahsokas-fate-mauls-return-and-much-more?page=2

 

Thanks that was a great read

[ab aeterno]

1 minute ago, Myrddin said:

But was Vader really trying to kill her? (initially, at least. The look through the cracked mask was chilling)

With Ezra, he obviously wasn't even trying to kill him. He was swatting aside his strokes like an adult would a child's.

No issue with Vader and Ezra, or with Vader not necessarily intending to kill Ahsoka. More how she takes him by surprise when she breaks his mask. Firstly, he should have felt her approaching him a mile off due to their connections, and secondly, even after she sees her his reaction is kinda... awful. 

[Corvinus85]

22 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

No issue with Vader and Ezra, or with Vader not necessarily intending to kill Ahsoka. More how she takes him by surprise when she breaks his mask. Firstly, he should have felt her approaching him a mile off due to their connections, and secondly, even after she sees her his reaction is kinda... awful. 

Well even Luke manages to pull one move on Vader in Empire with the half training he had, so I don't understand why Ahsoka pulling that on Vader upsets you.

[ab aeterno]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Well even Luke manages to pull one move on Vader in Empire with the half training he had, so I don't understand why Ahsoka pulling that on Vader upsets you.

It's not that it upsets me, it just disappoints me. It makes Vader seem disappointingly pedestrian after the brilliant way they introduced him in the first episode of the season. We had this discussion in the Rogue One thread - at this point, no-one should be able to come close to Vader. It should be a case of run or die. That's kinda the point of Obi-Wan sacrificing himself in ANH.

In Empire Vader is just toying with Luke to see whether he has any skills, but Vader is absolutely, dominatingly, in control throughout. Ahsoka not only takes him by surprise but comes within a couple of inches of killing him. (This being a guy who is able to see things before they happen - it's a Jedi trait). It's a bit of a case of "is that all it takes?"

 

 

[Jaxom 1974]

I'd want to watch the scene again, but Asoka was basically bum rushing Vader while his intent was on Ezra and the holocron.  I don't know that he didn't know Asoka was there, just that effect of her blow was something he didn't expect.

You didn't like the look in Vader's eye?  That you could tell that it actually was Anakin's face I thought was great.  Then she tells him she's not leaving him and his reaction is to tell her she's going to die?  C'mon.  That was pretty well done.

[ab aeterno]

6 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

You didn't like the look in Vader's eye?  That you could tell that it actually was Anakin's face I thought was great.  Then she tells him she's not leaving him and his reaction is to tell her she's going to die?  C'mon.  That was pretty well done.

Yeah, I thought they did that part brilliantly, which is part of the reason why I feel a bit let down that she neither leaves nor dies.   I hate when they drop lines like that and then don't follow up on them. - Unless she does turn to the dark side, and "dies" like Anakin "dies."

Like I said, it's not necessarily what happened that bothers me, so much as the way they show it on screen. It doesn't look (or at least it didn't look to me, I'll rewatch) as though she got lucky, it looks like she Obi-Wan'd him (i.e. like when Obi-Wan catches Maul by "surprise" in Phantom). It's like the Dark Side gives you a +5 seconds penalty to reaction time.

[ab aeterno]

It's growing on me a bit in hindsight, but I still don't think that Ahsoka's sneak attach was handled very well (especially with Vader struggling to pull the holocron from Ezra. And I still can't take the Inquisicopters seriously.

[Howdyphillip]

2 hours ago, ab aeterno said:

 

In Empire Vader is just toying with Luke to see whether he has any skills, but Vader is absolutely, dominatingly, in control throughout. Ahsoka not only takes him by surprise but comes within a couple of inches of killing him. (This being a guy who is able to see things before they happen - it's a Jedi trait). It's a bit of a case of "is that all it takes?"

 

 

That is not correct at all... The Vader/Luke fight is fought in three separate rounds. The first round being in the chamber where Han is frozen in carbonite, the second round in the hallway up to the point where Vader starts to use the Force to throw stuff at him, and then in the hallway, to the bridge. 

Luke was easily defeated, and narrowly escaped the first round. He drew the second round and scored points on Vader, and he was dominated in the third round.

The Ashoka/Ezra/Cannan vs. Vader fight was 3-1 and Vader would have easily walked away completely victorious if the area didn't explode. It was all that the three of them could do to let two of them escape. He was completely bad ass all the way through. 

Also, he rode in standing on top of a tie fighter like a boss.

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Considering what Maul said, I didn't think that. To me, it showed how powerful Ashoka is, not how weak Vader is.

I was always thrown by how much everyone seemed convinced she would just get curb stumped by him. In TCW she's pretty clearly regarded as extremely high potential but rash, pretty much exactly like Anakin. She then spends the next few years training under him and Obiwan fighting as an active participant in some of the most challenging battles of the TCW, and while she's still a padawan at that point she improves a lot over the course of the series and is a better fighter than almost all full Jedi by the end - she's weaker than the ones we see, but we are hanging with the Masters not the knights. Then she's had many years hanging by herself out of the other, learning things Jedi don't and still fighting at times like at Mangalore. 

And on top of all that, *he* was the one that trained her. If there's anyone that she should be able to fight above her level for, it's him. Yes, he's ridiculously powerful but she was destined to be one of the Masters, it should be competitive at least.

And Yoda saw the way to beat the Emperor, not Vader. It needed flipping Vader not killing him, so even if she could beat him it wouldn't matter if she can't lay a finger on Palps and fighting With force techniques was never shown as her strength, she's a light saber duelist. If all they needed was to kill Vader...Obi DID have the high ground

3 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Yeah.  But I think the power of the moment comes from Asoka NOT leaving and confronting Vader, even as we the audience know that it's futile. 

This was very much it for me, that emotional beat was everything.

On him not sensing her coming... There was a sith temple blowing up at the time, it was unleashing a lot of force energy. Why couldn't that have been blocking his perception?

[ab aeterno]

52 minutes ago, Howdyphillip said:

That is not correct at all... The Vader/Luke fight is fought in three separate rounds. The first round being in the chamber where Han is frozen in carbonite, the second round in the hallway up to the point where Vader starts to use the Force to throw stuff at him, and then in the hallway, to the bridge. 

Luke was easily defeated, and narrowly escaped the first round. He drew the second round and scored points on Vader, and he was dominated in the third round.
 

I'd say he only drew the second round because Vader was toying with him. Otherwise I agree, but I didn't say anything that contradicts what you're saying here, so I'm not sure what isn't "correct at all."

52 minutes ago, Howdyphillip said:

The Ashoka/Ezra/Cannan vs. Vader fight was 3-1 and Vader would have easily walked away completely victorious if the area didn't explode. It was all that the three of them could do to let two of them escape. He was completely bad ass all the way through. 

Also, he rode in standing on top of a tie fighter like a boss.

I wouldn't call it three vs one. I mean, sure, he was playing tug of war with Ezra and Kanan, but Ezra had already lost his lightsaber and been defeated, while Kanan was blind and was leaning on Chopper and Ezra just to stay upright. And Vader was having so much trouble force pulling the holocron that he let Ahsoka sucker punch him.

Of course, it could just be that you and I have different definitions of "bad ass".

Other than that, I have no problem with Ezra and Kanan running, nor with Ahsoka staying. They just used the explosion as a get out clause. It was a cheap way of avoiding a proper pay-off. Oh, and the TIE Fighter thing was kinda dumb, IMO. Something that Prequel Trilogy Anakin would do though.

[Gronzag]

I liked the fight and was happy that Ahsoka survived. But that reminds me, what a hell happened to Bariss Offee?! She is a padawan who bombed Jedi temple and than framed Tano. If she was jailed instead of executed, and in the meantime Republic became an Empire in the need of skilled Force-users, maybe we will see her come back for the rematch against Ahsoka.