Why did Tywin want to marry Jaime to Lysa, not Cat?

[Ser Leftwich]

It is not necessarily just a lie from Cersei:

“The first time I saw Riverrun, I was a squire green as summer grass,” Jaime told his cousin. “Old Sumner Crakehall sent me to deliver a message, one he swore could not be entrusted to a raven. Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me beside his daughter Lysa at every meal.” - AFfC p. 495 -

While Jaime might be reading more meaning into the event, it did happen.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

12 hours ago, Leonardo said:

I suspect the most likely is that Cersei was lying.

Jaime remembers Hoster seating him next to Lysa during a visit. So, there is some truth on that.

[grinny]

Because at that time Lysa was the best available option, if he didn't want to marry him to one of his bannermen and why would he. They fear him to much to rebel. So he would want to make ties with some other high Lord. Especially because the others doing die heavy intermarriages, and Tywin wouldn't want to be out of that power block if he can help it.

Arryn didn't have anyone close enough, he had to worry about any heirs at all.

Baratheon, no girls either.

Tyrell, the sisters are all to old and probably married.

That leaves the Starks, the Martells and the Tullys.

Keep in mind that Lysa at that time was young, beautiful (even if Cat was the more beautiful one, she was still pretty) and a virgin. She was around the same age as Jamie. So at that point there was absolute nothing against her.

We don't know at what point the Lyanna and Robert deal was made, but Lysa would be a better match than Lyanna anyway. It's the own border and the Jamie would be brother-in-law with the Starks through Cat and Lysa as well. When it comes to grandkids inheiring because the true heir dies without kids, than Lysa would be one again be better than Lyanna. Lysa only as one brother and sister in front of her in line. Lyanna has three brothers.

That leaves Elia and she is old. She was older than Rheagar and he is couple of years older than the twins. So why marrying your heir to a woman so much older(around 10 years) than his son (least years for childbearing) and you is known to be sickly? Nevertheless Jamie isn't the most cunning guy and Tywin knows that. So risking that is house is governed be the older woman, who could play his son especially if you consider that she is Dornish?

No Lysa would be a much better choice.

[Maxxine]

This is a simple answer. By that time Cat was already betrothed to Brandon. Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert. Elia was already married. As far as why Tywin declined the Elia before she was married to Rhaegar there could be two reasons. 1) Elia's mother asked at an obviously bad time. Maybe he just didn't want to talk betrothals right after his wife died. 2) At this point he seemed to still be on good terms w/ Aerys since he planned to marry Cersei to Rhaegar. Maybe he was trying to hold out to see if Aerys had a girl to marry Jaime.

So Lysa was the only one left (at least of the major houses) and all this is before the Littlefinger-Tansy tea incident so it makes sense. It's possible there was some Hightowers or Tyrells around too

[Unbent_Unbroken]

5 hours ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

Cat was propably already betrothed to Brandon Stark and considering Cersei is the only source I can think of, it might not even be true. The much more interesting question ist, why did Tywin refuse Elia Martell? Refusing a dornish princess but accepting Lysa Tully makes no sense whatsoever, unless it was something personal for Tywin, wich would only really make sense after Elia marries Rhaegar, not before. 

Elia has to be the Nr. 1 prospect amongst noblewomen across the realm. (next to Cersei herself, obviously) Was it just geographical convenience to have an alliance with a next door neighbour? Is Tywin a racist?!

This move would not only seal an alliance with the Martells who should be considered at least one step above the Tullys, but would also take Elia off the table for Rhaegar to marry, dramatically increasing Cerseis chances to become queen. This sounds like a very Tywin-like thing to do. But for some reason, he didn´t.

Tywin's a world class ass, but he did have legitimate reasons to reject Elia as a match. Elia was nearly a decade older than Jaime and in poor health. Those aren't good things when you're considering who will be the mother of your heir's heirs. Also, from a geographical stand point, a marriage alliance with the Riverlands makes much more sense than an alliance with Dorne if you're the Westerlands. The only real advantage to marrying Jaime off to Elia would be, as you say, to remove her as competition for Rhaegar but that's no guarantee that Aerys would agree to marry Rhaegar to Cersei.

[bent branch]

If we make two assumptions, the first being that Lady Dustin was correct in her belief the maesters were up to something and the second being that marriages were being arranged between the great houses in order to make a political force in opposition to the Targaryens, then it makes perfect sense that Tywin would want to marry Jaime to Lysa in order to buy into the alliances being made. And has been pointed out, Lysa was a perfectly good marriage prospect at the time Tywin was proposing this marriage.

[PrinceHenryris]

11 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

It is not necessarily just a lie from Cersei:

“The first time I saw Riverrun, I was a squire green as summer grass,” Jaime told his cousin. “Old Sumner Crakehall sent me to deliver a message, one he swore could not be entrusted to a raven. Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me beside his daughter Lysa at every meal.” - AFfC p. 495 -

While Jaime might be reading more meaning into the event, it did happen.

 

I wonder if it was Hoster's idea or Tywin's?

When I first read  that passage, I thought it was Hoster's idea to put Lyssa and Jaime together.  Despite what we hear from Littlefinger that Cat was better looking (which might not have been the case), Lyssa was still considered a beauty and might have been able to charm Jaime.  One daughter married to the heir to Winterfell and the other married to the heir to Casterly Rock, would be a pretty good score for Hoster.

After reading some of the other thoughts on this thread, I have to wonder.  Why would Sumner have to send Jaime of all people personally to Riverrun?  Even if the pretense that the "message" was too important to send by Raven is correct, why would he risk Tywin's son on the roads?  After that, why would Sumner and/or Tywin tolerate Jaime spending a fortnight at Riverrun while Hoster thought things over?

In the end, I would have to guess that Tywin and Hoster had discussed a possible marriage between Jaime and Lyssa.  Whether it ever reached the dowry stages, we only have Cersei's word.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Not got a book in front of me, but I seem to recollect that Tywin confirms to Tyrion that his plan was to marry Jaime to Lysa when they’re discussing his marriage to Sansa. Tywin lists all the houses that turned down a match with Tyrion, and says that after Jaime joined the Kingsguard, he offered Tyrion to marry Lysa in his place. Therefore, there seems more to it than a lie on Cersei’s part.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I also don’t really see why Cersei would lie about that, as in, what was she trying to gain? The reason Cersei would want Jaime to join the Kingsguard would be to prevent him marrying someone else…if that wasn’t about to happen, why say it was? I see no gain to Cersei in doing that unless she was telling the truth.

 

If she was just generally trying to get Jaime to join the Kingsguard in order to prevent him from marrying anyone ever, why not just suggest that plan to Jaime rather than make up that lie?

[norwaywolf123]

Becouse catelyn was betrohed to brandon stark and tywin wanted to join the Stark/Tully/Arryn/Baratheon alliance

[Ser Leftwich]

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Not got a book in front of me, but I seem to recollect that Tywin confirms to Tyrion that his plan was to marry Jaime to Lysa when they’re discussing his marriage to Sansa. Tywin lists all the houses that turned down a match with Tyrion, and says that after Jaime joined the Kingsguard, he offered Tyrion to marry Lysa in his place. Therefore, there seems more to it than a lie on Cersei’s part.

 

Correct!!

“You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle,” Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. “This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have.” He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. “I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter.” - ASoS p. 269 -

[Walda]

On 23/2/2016 at 3:09 AM, Ser Leftwich said:

Correct!!

“You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle,” Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. “This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have.” He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. “I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter.” - ASoS p. 269 -

Ouch! That must have hurt Lord Tywin's pride.

So Cersei was not just making things up - Lord Hoster had hoped to marry Jaime to Lysa. 

Jamie goes on to say that Lysa was indeed a very beautiful girl, although not as interesting as her sister, who was 'promised to some Northern boy, the heir of Winterfell', then adds that there were more interesting people than the girls around that table:

Quote

no girl interested Jaime half so much as Hoster’s famous brother, who had won renown fighting the Ninepenny Kings upon the Stepstones. At table he had ignored poor Lysa, whilst pressing Brynden Tully for tales of Maelys the Monstrous and the Ebon Prince.

*

On 23/2/2016 at 5:19 PM, PrinceHenryris said:

<snip>After reading some of the other thoughts on this thread, I have to wonder.  Why would Sumner have to send Jaime of all people personally to Riverrun?  Even if the pretense that the "message" was too important to send by Raven is correct, why would he risk Tywin's son on the roads?  After that, why would Sumner and/or Tywin tolerate Jaime spending a fortnight at Riverrun while Hoster thought things over?</snip>

I'd love to know what the message was. I suspect it would make no sense if it wasn't delivered by Tywin's son.

As to why Crakehall would risk Tywin's son on the roads - well, Jaime had already proven himself an able warrior against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and Tywin himself makes no attempt to protect his children, especially in war (Cersei shows how unlike him she can be, when it comes to Joffrey participating in the Battle of Blackwater).

I think Crakehall was allowed to have Jaime as a squire precisely because Tywin knew the boy would learn his craft and not be wrapped in cotton wool.  Tywin would have the Lion rampant, have the other beasts go into hiding when he appears. He wouldn't be pleased to know his son was hiding among the pigs. When he was young, Tywin did not seek to protect himself in battle, and when he marches against Riverrun in Clash of Kings, both Jaime and Tyrion are placed in vanguards, at his command.

Why would Crakehall tolerate Jaime being absent a fortnight while Lord Hoster  prevaricated? I suspect because the message really came from Lord Tywin (even if it was written in Crakehall's hand), and the timing of Hoster's reply was important to understanding how to interpret it, or else important to making it evident to Aerys, if some little bird of Varys's should present him with a copy, that the whole thing was really a pretext for Hoster to attempt to foist his daughter onto Tywin's son, and nothing to do with fomenting a rebellion against him.

But the presence of Blackfish does indicate that there is something more going on. Firstly, there were a lot of acquaintances formed on the battlefields of the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Blackfish had fought alongside the young Tywin Lannister and Steffon Baratheon, becoming fast friends. Lord Hoster had befriended Lord Baelish, hence Petyr becoming his ward.

The war had not improved all relationships, though. Prince Aerys had fought in the Stepstones (I presume in a naval battle) and so also belonged to this Band of Brothers. And Steffon was dead. So maybe they were not so chummy any more.

Second, after the war of Ninepenny Kings, Hoster must have felt some need for friends in the right places. First he became increasingly determined to marry Blackfish off to Bethany Redwyne, which would not only increase the family fortunes, but give the family a connection in the Reach, and by the sea. Blackfish refused, they quarrelled and became estranged, but not before Hoster had found more alternative wives to quarrel over with Blackfish:

Quote

I had other offers. Lord Bracken’s girl. Walder Frey … any of three, he said … Has he wed? Anyone? Anyone?

(AGoT,Ch.71 Catelyn XI)

Sometime around the time of Jaime's visit, Lord Hoster is called upon to arbitrate on the dispute between Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood (apparently the grandson or great-grandson of Otho Bracken, the Brute of Bracken, and the grand or great-grand nephew of Ser Quentyn Blackwood, who he slayed at the Tourney of Kings Landing in 205, ensuring that when Otho inherited the Lordship of Stone Hedge after the Great Spring Sickness of 210, the Blackwoods would take up arms against him, and there would be territory for their heirs to dispute.)

Lord Hoster might have wished to consult with the Brackens and the Blackwoods before returning his message to Crakehall via Jaime. Or maybe he thought it a bit rude to send the boy off before the big feast.

Quote

Were you there?” Lysa descended from the high seat, her skirts swirling. “Did you come with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood, the time they visited to lay their feud before my father? Lord Bracken’s singer played for us, and Catelyn danced six dances with Petyr that night, six, I counted. When the lords began to argue my father took them up to his audience chamber,...[Petyr] drank until he passed out at the table. Uncle Brynden carried him up to bed before my father could find him like that.(ASoS, Ch.80 Sansa VII)

At this feast we have recalcitrant Uncle Brynden left to drink with the children, and it is entirely possible that Cat was obliged to dance six dances with Petyr to ensure that Lysa was free to dance six dances with Jaime, if he could spare a moment from monopolising the Blackfish.

(Even if it isn't the same occasion, Hoster is kind of keen to marry off his family ASAP after the war of the Ninepenny Kings, isn't he?)

It also seems to me that Jaime's Riverrun arc has a lot of foreshadowing of the next Ninepenny Kings (and possibly the next Summerhall) -that is, the invasion of Westeros by JonCon, fAegon and the Golden Company, possibly followed by Dragonfire or fDragonfire. 

Again and again, Jaime seems to connect the old Riverrun alliances with the Crownlands and the Stormlands formed in the time of Duncan the Tall, with the new ones that seem to be needed for the battle against the Golden Company. 

Also, maybe Tom Sevenstreams was at this dinner:

Quote

Tom Sevenstrings sang a silly song about Big Belly Ben ..."Lord Hoster was hanging outlaws before you were shaving. And that son of his … a man who hates music can’t be trusted, I always say.”
“It’s not music he hates,” said Lem. “It’s you, fool.”
“Well, he has no cause. The wench was willing to make a man of him, is it my fault he drank too much to do the deed?”

(ASoS, Ch.22 Arya IV)

Big Belly Ben was the outlaw that Jaime had rescued Lord Crakehall from, shortly before this trip to Riverrun. Edmure also got munted that night. If  Tom Sevenstreams was Lord Bracken's singer, the song about Big Belly Ben and the Septon's Goose might (or might not) have been well received on the occasion, and 'The Floppy Fish' might have been composed after, to commemorate it.

If Edmure was born in 268 or 269, he would be 13 or nearly 13 at the time. Any younger and the floppy fish incident would have nothing to do with the alcohol.  On the other hand, the later Edmure was born (the latest possible is 274, making him six or seven that night), the less likely it becomes that he would have remained at the high table getting drunk after his father had gone to his audience chamber with the Lords Blackwood and Bracken.

'The Floppy Fish' also implies that there was another girl at the dinner - as I doubt Cat or Lysa were willing to make a man out of Edmure. This would be consistent with a young Bracken girl being sent along to the feast to seduce the Blackfish, who would rather spend the time getting information out of Jaime Lannister, and allowing his nephew to drink, perhaps to dance, with the young lady.

The lady in question seems to be up for it and is probably ambitious (Smart move, dumping the obviously not interested uncle for the future Lord of Riverrun). She might be a sister or aunt of Lord Jonos Bracken, but maybe she is a Blackwood (a great-grand-daughter of that politically astute matchmaker Betha Blackwood?). Or even a stray Frey - I'm guessing Lythene, if ambition and sluttiness are as hereditary in this world as Walder Frey implies, or the more age-appropriate Morya, who might have accompanied her Grandfather Blackwood to Riverrun.

On the face of it, even though the right people, with the right familial connections to organise a conspiracy for the Tourney at Harrenhal are at Riverrun that night (through them, Lord Whent and the major houses of  Stormlords, the Westerlands, the Riverlands, the North - everywhere except Jon Arryn's Vale, Dorne, and the Reach, can be drawn in without any unusual activities that Varys's spies might pick up on). Only, it seems to have been more a night for bickering and petty jealousies, than for making alliances. The ball seems to have been less than delightful for all involved, too.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 23-2-2016 at 8:19 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

I wonder if it was Hoster's idea or Tywin's?

When I first read  that passage, I thought it was Hoster's idea to put Lyssa and Jaime together.  Despite what we hear from Littlefinger that Cat was better looking (which might not have been the case), Lyssa was still considered a beauty and might have been able to charm Jaime.  One daughter married to the heir to Winterfell and the other married to the heir to Casterly Rock, would be a pretty good score for Hoster.

After reading some of the other thoughts on this thread, I have to wonder.  Why would Sumner have to send Jaime of all people personally to Riverrun?  Even if the pretense that the "message" was too important to send by Raven is correct, why would he risk Tywin's son on the roads?  After that, why would Sumner and/or Tywin tolerate Jaime spending a fortnight at Riverrun while Hoster thought things over?

In the end, I would have to guess that Tywin and Hoster had discussed a possible marriage between Jaime and Lyssa.  Whether it ever reached the dowry stages, we only have Cersei's word.

Why wouldn't he? It was a time of peace, after all.

 

On 24-2-2016 at 3:45 PM, Walda said:

As to why Crakehall would risk Tywin's son on the roads - well, Jaime had already proven himself an able warrior against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and Tywin himself makes no attempt to protect his children, especially in war (Cersei shows how unlike him she can be, when it comes to Joffrey participating in the Battle of Blackwater).

The battles against the Kingswood Brotherhood were later. The visit to Riverrun was before.

 

On 24-2-2016 at 3:45 PM, Walda said:

But the presence of Blackfish does indicate that there is something more going on. Firstly, there were a lot of acquaintances formed on the battlefields of the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Blackfish had fought alongside the young Tywin Lannister and Steffon Baratheon, becoming fast friends. Lord Hoster had befriended Lord Baelish, hence Petyr becoming his ward.

Why? Brynden was still living at Riverrun. There's nothing odd about him having been present during the dinners in the castle where he lived. 

And while Brynden fought in the same war as Tywin and Steffon had, nowhere is is stated that they had become 'fast friends'.

 

On 24-2-2016 at 3:45 PM, Walda said:

Sometime around the time of Jaime's visit, Lord Hoster is called upon to arbitrate on the dispute between Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood (apparently the grandson or great-grandson of Otho Bracken, the Brute of Bracken, and the grand or great-grand nephew of Ser Quentyn Blackwood, who he slayed at the Tourney of Kings Landing in 205, ensuring that when Otho inherited the Lordship of Stone Hedge after the Great Spring Sickness of 2010, the Blackwoods would take up arms against him, and there would be territory for their heirs to dispute.)

Lord Hoster might have wished to consult with the Brackens and the Blackwoods before returning his message to Crakehall via Jaime. Or maybe he thought it a bit rude to send the boy off before the big feast.

At this feast we have recalcitrant Uncle Brynden left to drink with the children, and it is entirely possible that Cat was obliged to dance six dances with Petyr to ensure that Lysa was free to dance six dances with Jaime, if he could spare a moment from monopolising the Blackfish.

Nothing currently suggests that those two events occured at the same time.

 

 

[Lord_Tyrell]

Eldest daughters aren't nearly as prized as eldest sons. It really makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. Lord Hoster could have had another boy, or the Blackfish could have gotten married. Plus Lysa was Jaime's age. Lysa would do for Tywin's purposes. She was a fine match for Jaime, at least at the time.

Plus Brandon was 5 years older than Jaime, Catelyn was 12, and I think Jaime was much too young to be betrothed at the time. Rickard beat Tywin to the punch regardless.

[Lord_Tyrell]

On 2/22/2016 at 4:24 AM, Neds Secret said:

That's a good question if it were true, however cersei is the source of this rumour and I think she is lying. Jaime is Tywins golden child and I do not accept that he would settle for lysa for Jaime and I believe Cersie is just trying to make Jaimes options seem even more easy to choose from, from Jaimes point of view. Settle for the soiled second daughter of an upstart house or be close to Cersei and guard the King as an elite soldier. For Jaime it is a no brainer

From what Tywin knew about Lysa at the time, why wouldn't he settle for her? I agree that if her virginity were taken, Tywin wouldn't have taken that, but the LF incident happened AFTER the Tourney at Harrenhall, by which point Jaime was a Kingsguard. Bringing Hoster into their alliance was a good move for Tywin, but unfortunately Jaime screwed that up (and maybe Lysa later if she slept with LF).

[MaybeINeverSawACamel]

On February 23, 2016 at 8:35 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Becouse catelyn was betrohed to brandon stark and tywin wanted to join the Stark/Tully/Arryn/Baratheon alliance

This. Southern Ambitions and all.

[Minsc]

On 2/22/2016 at 0:15 PM, Walda said:

Although lesser houses like the Green Apple Fossoways and the Redwynes do have some leverage through being neighbours and through previous marriages, the same factors could work in Tywin's favour- I could imagine Tywin cutting a deal with Hoster for the more immediately marriageable daughter, and re-negotiating with Rickard for Lysa to marry Brandon instead, just because it would a) Piss off the Starks and b ) Remind the Tullys that they are a lesser house than the Lannisters, live in the Lannister's  back yard, with the Lannister-by-law Freys between them and the North c) don't have a place at court, or as much money, and its an honour.

You are confusing Tywin with Cersei.  Tywin isn't a moron that is going to go out of his way to piss off two major houses for zero reasons that nets him no benefit.

Moreover, Hoster would have to agree to re-arrange Catelyn's betrothal with him having no reason to piss of the Starks like that (neither does Tywin).  Nor can Tywin re-negotiate a betrothal with Rickard for Lysa to marry Brandon without Hoster's approval.  Neither of these being likely if your stance is Tywin attempting this as a power play over the Tullys.  Nor is it likely Rickard will agree with said arrangement after Hoster had already broken his word for some reason had at the behest of Tywin.

 

Quote

the grander old houses like the Florents and the Hightowers and the Daynes, the Whents and the Royces might have old claims to Lord Paramount status

House Tully is more prestigious than all of those, besides maybe the Hightowers, and are actually Lord Paramounts.  Nor do any of those Houses have any old claims to Lord Paramount status as none of them ever actually held that position.  With the Vale unlikely to rise up against House Arryn or Dorne going to rise up against House Martell for House Dayne.