Small Questions v. 10105

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Right.Do we ever get a hint as to what Smallwood's issue might have been?

Not as far as I recall. One assumes it would have something to do with lands or taxes. Or the Smallwoods were favoring the Brackens over the Blackwoods on some issue. Perhaps because of a recent marriage or something of that sort.

We should also keep in mind that there were many people at that 'traitors' tourney' who had no idea what was going on. Uthor Underleaf, for instance. Ser Kyle the Cat and Glendon 'Ball'. Possibly also some of those village heroes and tourney knights participating in the tourney.

[shizett]

I haven't read the world book. Is there any information about Ned Stark's mother's death? When it happened, why, and how?

[Philokles]

59 minutes ago, shizett said:

I haven't read the world book. Is there any information about Ned Stark's mother's death? When it happened, why, and how?

No. All we know about Lyarra is her name and that she was Rickard's cousin, I believe.

[shizett]

Just now, Horse of Kent said:

No. All we know about Lyarra is her name and that she was Rodrik's cousin, I believe.

Thank you

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Within days of his coronation, Aegon's armies were on the march again ... Summoned to the defense of Harrenhal, Tully declared for House Targaryen instead, raised the dragon banner over his castle. (TWoIaF, The Conquest)

AFAWK, Aegon only revealed the heraldric banner of House Targaryen at his coronation. So how could Edmyn know of its design, have one made, raise it above Riverrun, then ride out to Harrenhal, & arrive outside Harren's castle by the time (if not before) Aegon's forces do?

Short of collusion between Aegon & Edmyn a deal earlier than just at Harrenhal, or I'm just misreading/over-analysing the text, the only explanation I can think of for this is that Aegon actually did reveal the Targaryen sigil in a way with a seal for all of the ravens he sent all across Westeros before the Targaryen forces left Dragonstone.

As a side-note: I'd have to imagine that the Citadel at the very least knew of the possibility for a Targaryen invasion for years given that Dragonstone had its own maester (with ravens for many Houses across the Seven Kingdoms), most likely commissioned by Aegon himself when he & Visenya visited Oldtown & the Citadel "in their youth" (not to mention perhaps also maps to have the Painted Table made).

[Lost Umber]

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Within days of his coronation, Aegon's armies were on the march again ... Summoned to the defense of Harrenhal, Tully declared for House Targaryen instead, raised the dragon banner over his castle. (TWoIaF, The Conquest)

AFAWK, Aegon only revealed the heraldric banner of House Targaryen at his coronation. So how could Edmyn know of its design, have one made, raise it above Riverrun, then ride out to Harrenhal, & arrive outside Harren's castle by the time (if not before) Aegon's forces do?

Short of collusion between Aegon & Edmyn a deal earlier than just at Harrenhal, or I'm just misreading/over-analysing the text, the only explanation I can think of for this is that Aegon actually did reveal the Targaryen sigil in a way with a seal for all of the ravens he sent all across Westeros before the Targaryen forces left Dragonstone.
 

Maybe it's just a Wikipedia mistake... not sure where they got it from. Or it could have been just a different banner to represent Targaryen than what Aegon eventually took for his sigil when he became king. I'd expect the Targ forces would have had some sort of banner or symbol to represent them when they were marching and fighting all over Westeros and prior to that. 

[Yaya]

Hi Everyone:  please help me, i've lost my favorites/bookmarks ... is there a "proper" listing of the "released" WoW chapters typed out online that i can read and reference?

i have to say that the damphair greyjoy chapter has got to be one of the best GRRM writings ever, one of the best things I have ever read - do you know what I mean?  I can't wait for the print.  It is some superior writing ...  WoW = wow indeed.

 

 

[Prince Brightfyre]

21 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Hi Everyone:  please help me, i've lost my favorites/bookmarks ... is there a "proper" listing of the "released" WoW chapters typed out online that i can read and reference?

i have to say that the damphair greyjoy chapter has got to be one of the best GRRM writings ever, one of the best things I have ever read - do you know what I mean?  I can't wait for the print.  It is some superior writing ...  WoW = wow indeed.

 

 

@Yaya here you go

https://angrygotfan.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/the-winds-of-winter.pdf

 

[Isobel Harper]

Where does the "Long" in House Longwaters come from?  Is it possible that Jon Waters (the founder of House Longwaters) married a woman from House Long, and combined their two surnames into one?

[Prince Brightfyre]

12 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Where does the "Long" in House Longwaters come from?  Is it possible that Jon Waters (the founder of House Longwaters) married a woman from House Long, and combined their two surnames into one?

Here:

During the Dance of the Dragons, the baseborn dragonseeds Addam and Alyn of Hull were legitimized as members of House Velaryon...

While Addam fell in the civil war, the dragon-scarred Alyn would go on to succeed his grandfather (or possible father) as Lord of Driftmark, Lord of the Tides, and head of House Velaryon. Dubbed "Oakenfist", he became very famous through his many deeds...

Although he had children with his wife, Lady Baela Targaryen, Lord Alyn loved Princess Elaena Targaryen, the youngest daughter of King Aegon III Targaryen and Queen Daenaera Velaryon (Baela's own half-niece). They had two children, Jon and Jeyne Waters.^[4] It is unknown whether Lord Alyn ever knew about his bastards, or whether the children were born after he left on his final voyage, from which he never returned...

Despite his bastardy, Jon Waters went on to become a great and famous knight in his own right. His son, whose name is yet unknown, went on to become the same. As the son was the legitimate child of Ser Jon Waters and his wife, he left the taint of bastardy behind him, and added "Long" to his name to show this.^[5] One of their descendants, Rennifer Longwaters, would later serve his distant Baratheonkin as chief undergaoler of the dungeons below the Red Keep of King's Landing.

tl;dr : Oakenfist had a bastard son named Jon Waters, and the true born son of this Jon Waters added the Long into his family name to get rid of the bastard stigma.

Hope that helps 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Prince Brightfyre said:

Here:

During the Dance of the Dragons, the baseborn dragonseeds Addam and Alyn of Hull were legitimized as members of House Velaryon...

While Addam fell in the civil war, the dragon-scarred Alyn would go on to succeed his grandfather (or possible father) as Lord of Driftmark, Lord of the Tides, and head of House Velaryon. Dubbed "Oakenfist", he became very famous through his many deeds...

Although he had children with his wife, Lady Baela Targaryen, Lord Alyn loved Princess Elaena Targaryen, the youngest daughter of King Aegon III Targaryen and Queen Daenaera Velaryon (Baela's own half-niece). They had two children, Jon and Jeyne Waters.^[4] It is unknown whether Lord Alyn ever knew about his bastards, or whether the children were born after he left on his final voyage, from which he never returned...

Despite his bastardy, Jon Waters went on to become a great and famous knight in his own right. His son, whose name is yet unknown, went on to become the same. As the son was the legitimate child of Ser Jon Waters and his wife, he left the taint of bastardy behind him, and added "Long" to his name to show this.^[5] One of their descendants, Rennifer Longwaters, would later serve his distant Baratheonkin as chief undergaoler of the dungeons below the Red Keep of King's Landing.

tl;dr : Oakenfist had a bastard son named Jon Waters, and the natural son of this Jon Waters added the Long into his family name to get rid of the bastard stigma.

Hope that helps 

"natural son" is another way of saying "bastard son". Oakenfist had a bastard son who married, and whose legitimite son added the "Long" to the family name.

4 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Where does the "Long" in House Longwaters come from?  Is it possible that Jon Waters (the founder of House Longwaters) married a woman from House Long, and combined their two surnames into one?

The account of Rennifer Longwaters doesn't add any information

“I see you wonder, what sort of name is that?” the man had cackled when Jaime went to question him. “It is an old name, ’tis true. I am not one to boast, but there is royal blood in my veins. I am descended from a princess. My father told me the tale when I was a tad of a lad.” Longwaters had not been a tad of a lad for many a year, to judge from his spotted head and the white hairs growing from his chin. “She was the fairest treasure of the Maidenvault. Lord Oakenfist the great admiral lost his heart to her, though he was married to another. She gave their son the bastard name of ‘Waters’ in honor of his father, and he grew to be a great knight, as did his own son, who put the ‘Long’ before the ‘Waters’ so men might know that he was not basely born himself. So I have a little dragon in me.”

However, I'd expect that, if the "Long" came from Jon's wife, Rennifer would have added that little detail. 

Though there is a House Long, they are from the north, and though not impossible, of course, I would not consider it the most likely scenario that Jon's son would marry a northern girl.

[Isobel Harper]

15 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

"natural son" is another way of saying "bastard son". Oakenfist had a bastard son who married, and whose legitimite son added the "Long" to the family name.

The account of Rennifer Longwaters doesn't add any information

“I see you wonder, what sort of name is that?” the man had cackled when Jaime went to question him. “It is an old name, ’tis true. I am not one to boast, but there is royal blood in my veins. I am descended from a princess. My father told me the tale when I was a tad of a lad.” Longwaters had not been a tad of a lad for many a year, to judge from his spotted head and the white hairs growing from his chin. “She was the fairest treasure of the Maidenvault. Lord Oakenfist the great admiral lost his heart to her, though he was married to another. She gave their son the bastard name of ‘Waters’ in honor of his father, and he grew to be a great knight, as did his own son, who put the ‘Long’ before the ‘Waters’ so men might know that he was not basely born himself. So I have a little dragon in me.”

However, I'd expect that, if the "Long" came from Jon's wife, Rennifer would have added that little detail. 

Though there is a House Long, they are from the north, and though not impossible, of course, I would not consider it the most likely scenario that Jon's son would marry a northern girl.

Maybe.  Branda Stark (Eddard Stark's maternal aunt) married into House Rogers, a house from the Stormlands.  Such marriages don't occur often, but they do occur.

I just noticed another potential "Long-," one that's a more likely candidate for Jon Waters' son's wife.  House Longthorpe.  House Longthorpe owes fealty to House Sunderland, who supported the Blacks (and the Velaryons) during the DotD.  In addition to being a potential political ally to House Velaryon, House Longthorpe also shares Velaryon's naval culture.

[Nittanian]

From TWOIAF: 

Quote

The temples of Braavos are far famed as well, and some are truly wonders to behold. The Temple of the Moonsingers is the foremost of these, for the Braavosi have a particular reverence for that deity, as previously recounted. The Father of Waters is almost as venerated; his watery temple is built anew each year for his feast days. The Lord of Light, red R'hllor, has a great temple on Braavos as well, for his worshippers have grown ever more numerous in the past hundred years.

Do we know why worship of R'hllor has increased in the last century?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Maybe.  Branda Stark (Eddard Stark's maternal aunt) married into House Rogers, a house from the Stormlands.  Such marriages don't occur often, but they do occur.

I just noticed another potential "Long-," one that's a more likely candidate for Jon Waters' son's wife.  House Longthorpe.  House Longthorpe owes fealty to House Sunderland, who supported the Blacks (and the Velaryons) during the DotD.  In addition to being a potential political ally to House Velaryon, House Longthorpe also shares Velaryon's naval culture.

Sure, such marriages happen But more often among the nobility, and not bastards. It would also depend on the status of the noble house in question, I suppose.

However, Jon Waters did have the advantage of being the son of a Targaryen princess, who not only lived a long life, but was also very influential at court by the time he had come of an age to marry (during the reign of Daeron II), which would have been in his favor as far as marriage candidates were concerned. But even so, I would expect a marriage closer to home. House Longthorpe could be an option. If not, they might simply have served as an inspiration for the name.

[Prince Brightfyre]

4 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Maybe.  Branda Stark (Eddard Stark's maternal aunt) married into House Rogers, a house from the Stormlands.  Such marriages don't occur often, but they do occur.

I just noticed another potential "Long-," one that's a more likely candidate for Jon Waters' son's wife.  House Longthorpe.  House Longthorpe owes fealty to House Sunderland, who supported the Blacks (and the Velaryons) during the DotD.  In addition to being a potential political ally to House Velaryon, House Longthorpe also shares Velaryon's naval culture.

I made a huge mistake. I meant true born son, not natural born 

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Sure, such marriages happen But more often among the nobility, and not bastards. It would also depend on the status of the noble house in question, I suppose.

However, Jon Waters did have the advantage of being the son of a Targaryen princess, who not only lived a long life, but was also very influential at court by the time he had come of an age to marry (during the reign of Daeron II), which would have been in his favor as far as marriage candidates were concerned. But even so, I would expect a marriage closer to home. House Longthorpe could be an option. If not, they might simply have served as an inspiration for the name.

Longwaters (given name unknown) was a knight of great renown and son of Ser Jon Waters, the bastard son of Princess Elaena Targaryen and Lord Alyn Velaryon. As a trueborn son, he added "Long" to his "Waters" name to show he was not himself baseborn. His line survives today in Rennifer Longwaters.^[1]

 

[Prince Brightfyre]

From my understanding, he added the Long into his name on his own volition, and with no outside influence; his aim was purely to disassociate himself from the social stigma of being bastard born, and subsequently to make things easier for any future descendants of his House. He was a knight of renown, as his father was, but just being a Waters keeps you a few notches down on the social ladder.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Is there any suggestion that the Mad King was an alcoholic? 

[Raisin' Bran]

15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is there any suggestion that the Mad King was an alcoholic? 

I never came across anything that would indicate that. Are you asking because of Cersei's propensity for wildfyre and booze?

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I never came across anything that would indicate that. Are you asking because of Cersei's propensity for wildfyre and booze?

No. The twisted little monkey demon's. 

[Raisin' Bran]

18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No. The twisted little monkey demon's. 

So you consider Tyrion an alcoholic? Hmmm... those may be fighting words.

Kidding, he does drink a lot, especially when depressed.