Why did the Others awaken NOW?

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, the title of the series has to mean something, and blood/fire/ice/shadow magic runs pretty heavily throughout the book.

That is true, but then we have the Others as a rather icy element and the dragons as a strong fiery element. The Targaryens are associated with dragons and the Starks to a much smaller degree to ice (through their sword Ice, basically, not some magic or magical animals) but can safely say that the Targaryens aren't fire, the dragons are, and the Targaryens aren't dragons. But the Others are true ice.

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not saying that blood itself has any magical ability, although more than a few characters in the book say it does, but that the mixing of these two bloodlines is bad in some way that we readers cannot discern yet.

The problem I've with such ideas is that this would mean that some contingent noble/royal family lines would be confirmed as truly 'super special' on a metaphysical level. That would be very strange in my mind.

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

My guess would be that ancestral blood does not count, for Dany, Aerys or anyone else -- otherwise Mel would be able to burn virtually anyone in the world and call it king's blood.

It would have to be a child from the leading branches of Houses Stark and Targaryen, Ice and Fire.

King's blood is another matter entirely. A king is set apart from mundane mortal men by his crown, his coronation, and so on. People in Westeros and the real middle ages believes that kings had special powers, and the like.

However, the truth seems to be that there are certain magical bloodlines, some of which - like the Targaryens (who are basically one of the surviving dragonlord bloodlines from Old Valyria) - became royal, and others did not. The Starks also seem to have inherited some skinchanger gene in their blood, suggesting that they also have a magical quality in their blood, perhaps because they are descended from some First Men who have a Child of the Forest among their ancestors. The fact that they once ruled the North in their own right as king didn't make their blood special, just as the Targaryen blood didn't get special when they made and sat the Iron Throne.

Mel might more be focused on the magic in 'king's blood' rather than the magic in the blood of certain bloodlines, especially not when they are rather far removed from the king in question.

Remember how the people interpreted the dragonbonding process as 'divine signs'. Prince Aenys bonding with the dragon Quicksilver was seen as a sign that he was the seed of the Conqueror, with the people overlooking the fact that Queen Rhaenys was a Targaryen, too. A similar thing is said for Rhaenyra's first three son, and Viserys II's dragon egg never hatching is seen as a bad sign. People see meaning in everything connected to the royals, but more often than not they interpret things wrongly. A dragon has no reason to care whether your birth is legitimate or not when the magical talent of dragonbonding is genetic trait that's inherited.

The same could go for the magical power of 'king's blood' in a blood sacrifice.

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

As far as we know, this has never happened, even when a deal was made between the two houses, which is not something that House Stark would simply let slide without good reason.

Cregan Stark had his pick of Targaryen women. Baela and Rhaena Targaryen were available at that point. He chose Black Aly Blackwood instead. It seems as if he had let it slide. If that pact thing was still a thing. Remember that Queen Rhaenyra and Prince Jacaerys (who had brokered that deal) were both dead by that point.

I agree that a direct Stark-Targaryen union in Jon Snow is going to be an important plot point but as of yet Jon is far less magical than one would expect if that was some really big metaphysical event even the Others would care about. As of yet he depicts the same magical talents as most of his siblings/cousins - basically skinchanging.

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

House Blackwood may have First Men blood, but as far as we know they don't have any Stark blood -- all of the Stark-Blackwood marriages that we know of brought female Blackwoods into House Stark, not the other way around. So the Blackwoods that AtU hooked up with don't appear to have any Stark blood; certainly not through any recent connection.

The MUSH indicates that Mariah/Marian Stark, the daughter of Cregan Stark by Black Aly was, in turn, betrothed to Melissa Blackwood's brother, the then-heir of Raventree Hall. They could have been the grandparents of Betha Blackwood. That is not much but in light of the fact that those houses intermarried after Dance and then again during the days of Maekar/Aegon V could be a strong sign that they also remained close for the time being.

That is not much, but it is not all that far-fetched, either.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is true, but then we have the Others as a rather icy element and the dragons as a strong fiery element. The Targaryens are associated with dragons and the Starks to a much smaller degree to ice (through their sword Ice, basically, not some magic or magical animals) but can safely say that the Targaryens aren't fire, the dragons are, and the Targaryens aren't dragons. But the Others are true ice.

The problem I've with such ideas is that this would mean that some contingent noble/royal family lines would be confirmed as truly 'super special' on a metaphysical level. That would be very strange in my mind.

King's blood is another matter entirely. A king is set apart from mundane mortal men by his crown, his coronation, and so on. People in Westeros and the real middle ages believes that kings had special powers, and the like.

However, the truth seems to be that there are certain magical bloodlines, some of which - like the Targaryens (who are basically one of the surviving dragonlord bloodlines from Old Valyria) - became royal, and others did not. The Starks also seem to have inherited some skinchanger gene in their blood, suggesting that they also have a magical quality in their blood, perhaps because they are descended from some First Men who have a Child of the Forest among their ancestors. The fact that they once ruled the North in their own right as king didn't make their blood special, just as the Targaryen blood didn't get special when they made and sat the Iron Throne.

Mel might more be focused on the magic in 'king's blood' rather than the magic in the blood of certain bloodlines, especially not when they are rather far removed from the king in question.

Remember how the people interpreted the dragonbonding process as 'divine signs'. Prince Aenys bonding with the dragon Quicksilver was seen as a sign that he was the seed of the Conqueror, with the people overlooking the fact that Queen Rhaenys was a Targaryen, too. A similar thing is said for Rhaenyra's first three son, and Viserys II's dragon egg never hatching is seen as a bad sign. People see meaning in everything connected to the royals, but more often than not they interpret things wrongly. A dragon has no reason to care whether your birth is legitimate or not when the magical talent of dragonbonding is genetic trait that's inherited.

The same could go for the magical power of 'king's blood' in a blood sacrifice.

Cregan Stark had his pick of Targaryen women. Baela and Rhaena Targaryen were available at that point. He chose Black Aly Blackwood instead. It seems as if he had let it slide. If that pact thing was still a thing. Remember that Queen Rhaenyra and Prince Jacaerys (who had brokered that deal) were both dead by that point.

I agree that a direct Stark-Targaryen union in Jon Snow is going to be an important plot point but as of yet Jon is far less magical than one would expect if that was some really big metaphysical event even the Others would care about. As of yet he depicts the same magical talents as most of his siblings/cousins - basically skinchanging.

The MUSH indicates that Mariah/Marian Stark, the daughter of Cregan Stark by Black Aly was, in turn, betrothed to Melissa Blackwood's brother, the then-heir of Raventree Hall. They could have been the grandparents of Betha Blackwood. That is not much but in light of the fact that those houses intermarried after Dance and then again during the days of Maekar/Aegon V could be a strong sign that they also remained close for the time being.

That is not much, but it is not all that far-fetched, either.

Lol, I'm not sure how you can square your problem with 'super special' blood on a metaphysical level with your acceptance of certain "magical bloodlines" -- one of which happens to be the Targaryens -- but I'm not arguing that either Stark or Targ blood is special because they were kings, but in what traits they carry: things like skinchanging and dragon-bonding.

Which leads me to (yet another) crazy thought: Perhaps the skinchanging trait in Stark Ice blood combined with the dragon-bonding traits of Targaryen Fire blood would allow a Stark-Targ to skinchange a dragon -- not just bond with it telepathically but actually inhabit and control its body like Bran does to Summer and Hodor. I surmise that this would simply be too great a power for anyone else to withstand, and it would also bring some closure to Bran's arc -- to help Jon open his third eye. We can put this theory to the test if Jon ever comes in contact with a dragon.

 

Yes, Cregan chose a Blackwood from the Riverlands who was good with a bow vs. a royal Targaryen princess who had a dragon. Quite strange, IMO. If you recall, Cregan wanted Lord Corlys Valaryon to die for poisoning Aegon II, even though Cregan fought for the blacks. But he was persuaded to let A III's pardon stand in exchange for Black Aly's hand. Why would he accept her in exchange for this boon when he already had a deal with A III's mother for a Targ princess?

 

I'm not sure how much stock we should place in the mush, but even if some Stark blood did make its way into Targ blood at this stage, we're only talking roughly 80 years ago -- not 300 years ago for the doom or thousands of years ago for the advent of dragonlords. There also doesn't appear to be any dragons at this point. (Please keep reading before you respond to that statement).

But you may be onto to something: Black Betha's first child would have been Duncan, born about 220 or 224 -- the same Duncan who drew the attention of Jenny of Oldstones and her little woods witch. It was also right about this time that Raymun Redbeard became KbtW and breached the Wall, and although we don't have any reports of Others at this time it is also not far-fetched to think that some kind of threat led the clans to put aside their differences and unite back then, just as they are doing now. I admit, though, that the timeline is a little tight here.

Of course, by 259, Duncan and Daeron were dead and Summerhall had failed to raise a dragon. Jahaerys and Shaera were dead a few years later, and Rhaelle's bloodline passed into the Baratheons. Then you have Aarys and Rhaella strengthening their Ice/Fire blood for a second generation in the form of Rhaegar who then re-energizes it with a women said to have the "wolf blood" to create Jon. And by this time, we have evidence that dragons had already re-entered the world:

Bran III, AGOT:

"He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

 

 

 

 

[Damon_Tor]

On 3/15/2016 at 3:05 PM, Masha said:

Sometime, relatively recently, the Others awakened and immediately went into offensive mode. The question is why now? It seems to have happened within last 100 years and actually sometime after the Robert rebellion.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" because the Starks are uniquely in tune with CotF telepathy: this means the CotF can influence human politics by manipulating the Starks via dreams, so this was included as a part of the treaty between the First Men and the Children.

The Others were on a dead-man switch tied to this provision. If the Children/the Weirnet loses contact with the Starks, the Others reactivate.

Catelyn Tully, because of her Whent mother, is uniquely RESISTANT to psychic manipulation, and so are her children. That means that every time Ned left Winterfell with one of his kids as "the Stark" the connection got "fuzzy" and the Others stirred. When Ned died they woke up.

They could be put back to sleep one of two ways IMO. Either Jon Snow (who has no Whent blood) must become the Stark in Winterfell (or a child of his must do the same) OR Harrenhall has to be restored and ruled by an empowered monarch with Whent blood. (The latter seems to be Littlefinger's endgame). It's possible BOTH might be required to actually end the threat.

[rotting sea cow]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I agree that a direct Stark-Targaryen union in Jon Snow is going to be an important plot point but as of yet Jon is far less magical than one would expect if that was some really big metaphysical event even the Others would care about. As of yet he depicts the same magical talents as most of his siblings/cousins - basically skinchanging.

Indeed! We are in book five and Jon doesn't seem at all special in comparison with his siblings/cousins. This should change soon! OTOH Dany has had her share of magical encounters.

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Indeed! We are in book five and Jon doesn't seem at all special in comparison with his siblings/cousins. This should change soon! OTOH Dany has had her share of magical encounters.

Quite honestly, even Dany isn't all that magical. It is quite clear that she is surrounded by prophecy and destiny, but there are no hints that she herself has powerful magical abilities. She might dabble in sorcery later on, to be sure, but one wonders whether she will have time for that. But then, Quaithe, Moqorro, and Marwyn certainly could help her with that.

Jon does lack all that prophecy and destiny stuff and if he was supposed to some great magical guy George could have done at least as much with him in that regard than he does with Bran already. Nobody thinks Bran is the prince that was promised or not Ned's son by Catelyn just because he has powerful magical abilities.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, I'm not sure how you can square your problem with 'super special' blood on a metaphysical level with your acceptance of certain "magical bloodlines" -- one of which happens to be the Targaryens -- but I'm not arguing that either Stark or Targ blood is special because they were kings, but in what traits they carry: things like skinchanging and dragon-bonding.

Oh, it is more about 'the legitimate birth kind of thing'. If Jon is special then not because he was born in wedlock but because he is the scion of two magical bloodlines.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Which leads me to (yet another) crazy thought: Perhaps the skinchanging trait in Stark Ice blood combined with the dragon-bonding traits of Targaryen Fire blood would allow a Stark-Targ to skinchange a dragon -- not just bond with it telepathically but actually inhabit and control its body like Bran does to Summer and Hodor. I surmise that this would simply be too great a power for anyone else to withstand, and it would also bring some closure to Bran's arc -- to help Jon open his third eye. We can put this theory to the test if Jon ever comes in contact with a dragon.

That certainly is a possibility for the future. It could come in handy if one of Dany's dragons goes wild, runs amok, or ends up under the control of the wrong guy.

I actually think that 'normal skinchangers' can't control dragons because we know that there were once dragons in Westeros and no story ever mentioned the Children of the Forest using them as weapons against the First Men which they most likely would have done had they been able to control them. I expect a 'normal skinchanger' trying to subdue a dragon to burn out just as Varamyr burned out when Melisandre attacked him and his bird because a dragon 'burns to hot inside'. But Jon could make a difference there. It could also come in handy should he be forced to sacrifice his dragon in the final fight against the Others.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, Cregan chose a Blackwood from the Riverlands who was good with a bow vs. a royal Targaryen princess who had a dragon. Quite strange, IMO. If you recall, Cregan wanted Lord Corlys Valaryon to die for poisoning Aegon II, even though Cregan fought for the blacks. But he was persuaded to let A III's pardon stand in exchange for Black Aly's hand. Why would he accept her in exchange for this boon when he already had a deal with A III's mother for a Targ princess?

One assumes Cregan really had the hots for Black Aly. They could have met before Cregan even arrived at the capital. Keep in mind that the man was only in his twenties at this time, at least according to the MUSH, and he had just recently lost his first wife. He might have preferred Aly over Baela and Rhaena who were both somewhat younger.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not sure how much stock we should place in the mush, but even if some Stark blood did make its way into Targ blood at this stage, we're only talking roughly 80 years ago -- not 300 years ago for the doom or thousands of years ago for the advent of dragonlords. There also doesn't appear to be any dragons at this point. (Please keep reading before you respond to that statement).

But you may be onto to something: Black Betha's first child would have been Duncan, born about 220 or 224 -- the same Duncan who drew the attention of Jenny of Oldstones and her little woods witch. It was also right about this time that Raymun Redbeard became KbtW and breached the Wall, and although we don't have any reports of Others at this time it is also not far-fetched to think that some kind of threat led the clans to put aside their differences and unite back then, just as they are doing now. I admit, though, that the timeline is a little tight here.

Actually, Raymun became king long before actually attacked the Wall, just as Mance did. Prince Duncan seemed to have married some other First Men/Children woman. Jenny is not likely to be related to the Starks. Rather the Mudds or some other very ancient First Men family.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course, by 259, Duncan and Daeron were dead and Summerhall had failed to raise a dragon. Jahaerys and Shaera were dead a few years later, and Rhaelle's bloodline passed into the Baratheons. Then you have Aarys and Rhaella strengthening their Ice/Fire blood for a second generation in the form of Rhaegar who then re-energizes it with a women said to have the "wolf blood" to create Jon. And by this time, we have evidence that dragons had already re-entered the world:

Bran III, AGOT:

"He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

Well, I'm not sure if I'm buying that. Even if there are dragons in Asshai, they won't affect the story at all.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually think that 'normal skinchangers' can't control dragons because we know that there were once dragons in Westeros and no story ever mentioned the Children of the Forest using them as weapons against the First Men which they most likely would have done had they been able to control them. I expect a 'normal skinchanger' trying to subdue a dragon to burn out just as Varamyr burned out when Melisandre attacked him and his bird because a dragon 'burns to hot inside'. But Jon could make a difference there. It could also come in handy should he be forced to sacrifice his dragon in the final fight against the Others.

Interesting thought, although it runs counter to my idea about Torrhen Stark and Aegon I negotiating a truce all night long before Torrhen bent the knee. I mean, after Harrenhall and the Field of Fire what is there to negotiate other than "surrender or burn with your army"? Torrhen must have had a chip to play, and the only thing I can think of is that he had some skinchangers or CotF with him who could warg the dragons. I suppose they could have taken over the horses, like the Ifeqevron apparently did to the Dothraki, but that's not much to pit against three dragons. Maybe they could get thousands of ravens to peck the dragon's eyes out.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Prince Duncan seemed to have married some other First Men/Children woman. Jenny is not likely to be related to the Starks. Rather the Mudds or some other very ancient First Men family.

No, I'm not saying Jenny was a Stark, but that her woods witch might know that Duncan had Stark blood through the Blackwood line, if in fact he does. This would then inform her prophecy that the PtwP would come from the Aerys/Rhaella union, and might also explain her involvement in Summerhall: to either raise a dragon for this new generation of Stark/Targ riders, or to sabatoge the line by taking out as many Targs as she can -- including, apparently, Rhaegar himself, whom the wiki says was born at SH the day of the fire, although the sources it lists don't actually confirm the location of his birth, just the date.

[Lord Varys]

45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Interesting thought, although it runs counter to my idea about Torrhen Stark and Aegon I negotiating a truce all night long before Torrhen bent the knee. I mean, after Harrenhall and the Field of Fire what is there to negotiate other than "surrender or burn with your army"? Torrhen must have had a chip to play, and the only thing I can think of is that he had some skinchangers or CotF with him who could warg the dragons. I suppose they could have taken over the horses, like the Ifeqevron apparently did to the Dothraki, but that's not much to pit against three dragons. Maybe they could get thousands of ravens to peck the dragon's eyes out.

Oh, Torrhen is not likely to have had any skinchangers or Children, even. If that were the case then the Starks would still believe in the Others, the Children, and the other stories they clearly don't believe in when the series starts.

I'm more inclined to believe that Brandon Snow was the guy Bran so making three weirwood arrows and that the dragons are vulnerable to weirwood. That would have been the way the ancient First Men would have slain the wild dragons that apparently once lived in Westeros.

But I'm with you that a skinchanger attempting to take over a dragon could result in result in the dragon going mad or in the bond between dragon and dragonlord being severed, neutralizing a dragon as a weapon later on. If this resulted in the skinchanger 'burning out' (like Varamyr sort of did after being attacked by Mel) or him even dying this wouldn't be a very good way to deal with an enemy.

It certainly could explain why the Valyrians never tried to conquer Westeros after they, perhaps, tried to get a foothold on the mainland very in very ancient times in the Oldtown region. If the Children had the powers to control the dragons via their skinchangers and greenseers back in the days of the war with the First Men then their power over these animals would have been absolute and they could have been used as devastating weapons against the First Men. A handful of dragons controlled by the Children certainly could have killed all the First Men. They would have acted with intent, being directly controlled rational minds. The dragons couldn't have been lured into traps nor could the First Men have sneaked up on them to kill them from behind or something of that sort.

45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, I'm not saying Jenny was a Stark, but that her woods witch might know that Duncan had Stark blood through the Blackwood line, if in fact he does. This would then inform her prophecy that the PtwP would come from the Aerys/Rhaella union, and might also explain her involvement in Summerhall: to either raise a dragon for this new generation of Stark/Targ riders, or to sabatoge the line by taking out as many Targs as she can -- including, apparently, Rhaegar himself, whom the wiki says was born at SH the day of the fire, although the sources it lists don't actually confirm the location of his birth, just the date.

Rhaegar was born at Summerhall during the fire. We see that on the picture of the event in TWoIaF.

We would have to have more information on the Ghost's prophecy to Jaehaerys II. It stresses the importance of Aerys and Rhaella, not any Stark/First Men-Targaryen union. That makes it more likely to me that the Ghost just got a glimpse of the future, realizing that the promised prince would either be a child of Aerys and Rhaella or a descendant of one of their children (a grandchild, great-grandchild, and so on).

If she had known more she certainly would told them what she knew, and if she had known about Rhaegar and Lyanna early on then Rhaegar Targaryen would never have married Elia Martell but Lyanna Stark instead.

[LordMiddleFinger]

Probably has something to do with the whole "Azor Ahai" prophecy. I mean, if the prophecy is true and Azor Ahai is destined to stop the Others, it sounds logical to me that they would come back at about the same time Azor Ahai comes back/is reborn... on the other hand maybe it's because of Littlefinger O_o

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaegar was born at Summerhall during the fire. We see that on the picture of the event in TWoIaF.

Aha, I never noticed that. Kind dark at the bottom of the picture in my book, but there it is. Cool.

[Gray Ghost]

I was just thinking the other day about the Others and a thought came to me.  As far as WHY the Others have chosen NOW to advance south.. There really doesn't seem to be any proper evidence.  Has it already been put forth as a theory anywhere that maybe there's a greater threat that we are unaware of currently? Whether it be another species or a coming cataclysm..

[Masha]

On 1/25/2017 at 5:53 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Has anyone else besides myself ever considered that the Others did not awaken but have been living in the Land of Always Winter since their defeat?

Now that the daylight is shorter and the night is longer and the snow has been falling the Others have started moving.

 

Yes, most consider Others to be dormant, passive, not necessarily asleep. By "awakening" I usually mean become aggressive. ITs kind of obvious that the Others didn't fall asleep as there are a LOT of stories about the Others AFTER the War for the Dawn supposedly ended and Brandon the Builder constructed the Wall. Main example is the story of the Night King which took place hundreds if not thousands of years after the end of original War and involves perfectly awake Ice Queen - aka Others Female.

Daylight being shorter means nothing, as it usually the case with Winters and there had been hundreds and thousands of Winters and the Others didn't attack like they do now.

On 1/28/2017 at 1:13 PM, The Fresh PtwP said:

First off I don't believe the Others were asleep, just weakened and passive after the Long Night. 

Second I think Valyria/dragons/fire magic is there "counter". 

Third I do not believe they have too much intel on what happens outside of the North.

So in my eyes Long Night happens, the Others are defeated, fast foward years and years of recovering and licking their wounds, than out of nowhere two "dragons" are at their doorstep in the form of BR and Aemon, and one of them certainly pings on the magic radar. That dangerous magical one is made leader of their archenemy and now they're right and pissed...So they start making their presence felt. Wildlings first, gathering troops, years, years, years, Craster, years, years...than Waymar. I think the Other inspecting his blade was looking for dragonglass or VS, after Waymar I think the Others realize men aren't what they used to be, and that men have forgotten about dragonglass. So with new knowledge that they're untouchable they are now really bearing down (i.e. The Fist, Long Night 2.0)

Well, Good Queen Alyanne visited the Wall and I believe spent some time there visiting most of Night's Watch Castles and she had her Dragon in tow perhaps more than one too. So why didn't actual Dragon antagonize the Others but some old "dragons" whose magic and blood had weakened since the heyday of Valyria did.

On 1/29/2017 at 2:10 PM, Damon_Tor said:

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" because the Starks are uniquely in tune with CotF telepathy: this means the CotF can influence human politics by manipulating the Starks via dreams, so this was included as a part of the treaty between the First Men and the Children.

The Others were on a dead-man switch tied to this provision. If the Children/the Weirnet loses contact with the Starks, the Others reactivate.

Catelyn Tully, because of her Whent mother, is uniquely RESISTANT to psychic manipulation, and so are her children. That means that every time Ned left Winterfell with one of his kids as "the Stark" the connection got "fuzzy" and the Others stirred. When Ned died they woke up.

They could be put back to sleep one of two ways IMO. Either Jon Snow (who has no Whent blood) must become the Stark in Winterfell (or a child of his must do the same) OR Harrenhall has to be restored and ruled by an empowered monarch with Whent blood. (The latter seems to be Littlefinger's endgame). It's possible BOTH might be required to actually end the threat.

First time I hear about Whent blood being uniquely resistant to psychic manipulation. Plus BR definitely psychically manipulated Bran, so that theory is off. 

As for the Others awakening, their first known attack on Nights Watch happened while Ned was at Winterfell for at least last 7 years nonstop. (The last war campaign that took him away was the Greyjoy Rebellion, 7 years past). Furthermore, it was kind of noticeable that it was just a recent escalation of the Others aggression, by the time they attacked young Royce, they already started to terrorize wildlings substantially. Within a year, it escalates.

On 1/30/2017 at 2:40 PM, John Suburbs said:

Interesting thought, although it runs counter to my idea about Torrhen Stark and Aegon I negotiating a truce all night long before Torrhen bent the knee. I mean, after Harrenhall and the Field of Fire what is there to negotiate other than "surrender or burn with your army"? Torrhen must have had a chip to play, and the only thing I can think of is that he had some skinchangers or CotF with him who could warg the dragons. I suppose they could have taken over the horses, like the Ifeqevron apparently did to the Dothraki, but that's not much to pit against three dragons. Maybe they could get thousands of ravens to peck the dragon's eyes out.

No, I'm not saying Jenny was a Stark, but that her woods witch might know that Duncan had Stark blood through the Blackwood line, if in fact he does. This would then inform her prophecy that the PtwP would come from the Aerys/Rhaella union, and might also explain her involvement in Summerhall: to either raise a dragon for this new generation of Stark/Targ riders, or to sabatoge the line by taking out as many Targs as she can -- including, apparently, Rhaegar himself, whom the wiki says was born at SH the day of the fire, although the sources it lists don't actually confirm the location of his birth, just the date.

I believe Aegon promised that every king who surrendered voluntarily could keep "keep his sword" aka power. So by peacefully surrendering Torrhen forced Aegon to fulfill his oath. As for letters, it was more like that they were negotiating their duties and obligations as lord and vassal. Like Taxes paid, or when Torrhen is supposed to join Aegon's army when called and when Aegon would be forced to defend North if so called and etc.

 

[Black Dragons]

I think it is the long winter that coming!

[Clegane'sPup]

53 minutes ago, Masha said:

Yes, most consider Others to be dormant, passive, not necessarily asleep. By "awakening" I usually mean become aggressive. ITs kind of obvious that the Others didn't fall asleep as there are a LOT of stories about the Others AFTER the War for the Dawn supposedly ended and Brandon the Builder constructed the Wall. Main example is the story of the Night King which took place hundreds if not thousands of years after the end of original War and involves perfectly awake Ice Queen - aka Others Female.

Daylight being shorter means nothing, as it usually the case with Winters and there had been hundreds and thousands of Winters and the Others didn't attack like they do now.

I can't speak to what other posters consider. I would say that the Others were driven back to the Land of Always Winter by the legendary hero who sought out the CotF to help in his quest. There their stayed until the conditions were ripe. Once the weather started to get colder, the day light shorter and the snow began to fall the Others began to move. The Thenns started to move from their lands carrying the word to the wildlings and free folk. The enemy that brings your dead to fight against you is moving. Why is it the free folk and wildlings know to burn the wights? Trial and error? A Sam chapter reveals that obsidian kills Others. It is not revealed until later in the story that the CotF supplied the NW with obsidian.

My take is that the Others have been living in the Lands of Always Winter and they decided to make a move because "Winter is Coming."

[Masha]

23 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I can't speak to what other posters consider. I would say that the Others were driven back to the Land of Always Winter by the legendary hero who sought out the CotF to help in his quest. There their stayed until the conditions were ripe. Once the weather started to get colder, the day light shorter and the snow began to fall the Others began to move. The Thenns started to move from their lands carrying the word to the wildlings and free folk. The enemy that brings your dead to fight against you is moving. Why is it the free folk and wildlings know to burn the wights? Trial and error? A Sam chapter reveals that obsidian kills Others. It is not revealed until later in the story that the CotF supplied the NW with obsidian.

My take is that the Others have been living in the Lands of Always Winter and they decided to make a move because "Winter is Coming."

Then why the Others didn't attack on such scale for the last 8 thousands years, there had been bad winters before that lasted years. What is different now, from say the bad Winter during Dance of the Dragons War, when thousands of Northmen joined Clegan Stark going South to War because they were expendable? Or the bad Winter during Robert's Rebellion, with the whole "false Spring" storyline meaning that Winter lasted a long time?

All this time, all these bad Winters with dragons and without, but the Others stayed relatively hidden and passive.  There might have been raids on Wildlings and such, but not to such extend for at least thousand years.  

Why this Winter, why now? Is this Winter going to be like the Long Night, just because, or perhaps it is going to be this bad because of the magic that the Others are carrying?

What changed?

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

4 minutes ago, Masha said:

What changed?

I wish I could answer your question. I can't. All I can comfortably say is that I (me) have to keep in mind the story progression. I'm going to go look up some stuff and maybe I can I can come up a some possibles.

[Minuteman]

The big mystery of the series is what/who are the Others and what do they want. My bet is that they are working to fulfill their interpretation of tptwp prophecy same as the Red Priests. Mel was in Westeros before the red comet so presumably the R'hllorists know that the time for the prophecy to be fulfilled is at hand. Also, remember that tptwp is a prophecy far older than the IT so how it resolves has noting to do with the IT itself. I strongly suspect that the Others are after something that was placed in the crypts with the body of the NQ. They may also simply be heading for Winterfell because that is where tptwp is due to reveal him/herself (i.e. tptwp is the prince that was promised to the Others as they have been without their Prince since the NQ was murdered and that is how he/she saves the realms of Men from them). As for what is/was in the crypts, maybe petrified dragon eggs weren't the only things thought dead that came alive when the red comet arrived.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Masha said:

Then why the Others didn't attack on such scale for the last 8 thousands years, there had been bad winters before that lasted years. What is different now, from say the bad Winter during Dance of the Dragons War, when thousands of Northmen joined Clegan Stark going South to War because they were expendable? Or the bad Winter during Robert's Rebellion, with the whole "false Spring" storyline meaning that Winter lasted a long time?

All this time, all these bad Winters with dragons and without, but the Others stayed relatively hidden and passive.  There might have been raids on Wildlings and such, but not to such extend for at least thousand years.  

Why this Winter, why now? Is this Winter going to be like the Long Night, just because, or perhaps it is going to be this bad because of the magic that the Others are carrying?

What changed?

I did some snooping around and this is what I came up with.

My answer is prefaced by this: The ASOIAF saga, books 1-5. No companion material. The way ASOIAF started in 1996, a story, a fiction novel, with the latest but not final installment of the ongoing saga being delivered in 2011.

A group of NW rangers are out tracking wildlings. It’s cold and getting dark.

The author setting up the story. Me, the reader has no idea what is going on. Stuff starts to happen. Will up the tree sees what is going on.

The Others made no sound. Will sees them. Waymar on the ground does not. I get my first description of the Others:

Quote

Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

 

Quote

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them.

I could go on with the quotes but it is not necessary. The point is the prologue sets up the description of the Others but addresses no motivation as to why these Others attack the NW men. Hell at that point I don't even know what the NW is.

Later I am introduced to wights. The story goes on with bits and pieces of information dribbled out. Fire kills wights. Burn the dead else they come back to get you. Dragonglass kills Others. Etc, etc, you know the story.

Even the comet streaking through the sky doesn’t explain why the Others are roaming around. The Others attacked before the comet is even mentioned. Or was it?

I still cannot answer your question as to why the Others began to prowl around. But they did. And the free folk, wildlings, Thenns and other groups started to move from their lands in order to escape them.

Throw into that I’m not sure whether the Others bring the cold or whether the cold brings the Others.

I used to bitch and complain about Martin’s ambiguous writing style. Now I figure eventually the saga will end and the dots will connect. Or maybe not.

I enjoy reading the threads and chatting about certain topics. I ain’t gonna fight to the death over a theory nor am I willing to get my panties, drawers or swimming sock twisted in a bunch.

 

 

[ravenous reader]

The King of Winter was born -- Jon.

 

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I enjoy reading the threads and chatting about certain topics. I ain’t gonna fight to the death over a theory nor am I willing to get my panties, drawers or swimming sock twisted in a bunch.

Good policy, Pup!  

[Clegane'sPup]

17 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The King of Winter was born -- Jon.

I swear to old gods and the new that idea never crossed my mind. you may be on to something.

17 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Good policy, Pup!  

Thank you.

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

I swear to old gods and the new that idea never crossed my mind. you may be on to something.

Thank you.

Hi Pup, well met once more -- though we read 'completely different books' !

I actually got the idea after pondering @Voice's ideas regarding the pivotal ouroboros imagery (the beginning and the end of things converging...now it begins, now it ends...) of the scene at the TOJ, as lyrically described in Ned's 'fever dream' -- the convergence of beginning and end represents among other things the seasons turning.

 Voice believes it was the slaying of the Sword of the Morning, i.e. Arthur, as the representative of Summer at the hands of the Night's King descendant, i.e. Ned, as the representative of Winter, that triggered the Others to start migrating South.  However, it occurred to me that perhaps it wasn't a death so much as a birth which triggered them -- and who else was born in that crucial moment but Jon?  In addition, we've found abundant evidence e.g. on @LmL's recent threads that Jon represents the new King of Winter.

That doesn't necessarily mean he will lead the Others, but I think it means he's their new boss and will sort them out (with a little help from his brother-cousin the King of Summer = Bran)...

I also think the reason the Kings of Winter in the crypts tell him it's 'not his place' is that Jon's got work to do 'upstairs' -- instead of lurking in the crypt, he needs to rise and get to work, because 'Winter is Coming'!