Balon is the worst Military Leader in recent history

[watcher of the night]

53 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north.

This is just idiocity galore. You cannot defend the north from the northmen who are living up north by holding Moat Cailin.

The Starks were Kings of the North for thousands of years without holding Moat Cailin.

[khal drogon]

1 hour ago, VeryLittleGravitasIndeed said:

NwaThe Ironboave a lo t of ships butwarshian't replace those ships or the crews while with the gold of Casterly Rock and the timber of the North and Stromlands Robert can easily double or triple the size of his navy if need be. Also most of the Ironborn fleet are small longships, good for raiding not so good for battle.

Basically unless Balon can inflict hilariously lopsided casualties on the mainland navies then it becomes a game of numbers which he looses, badly and Balon would have to be an utter cretin to believe that he can do that much better against the likes Tywin Lannister, Jon Arryn or Robert Baratheon.  

Nope. The Ironborn had longships as well as war galleys. The Iron fleet Balon built is made up of war galleys. 

Yes with the money of Casterly Rock and timber from the North they could build ships but just ships doesn't become a Navy. The Ironborn are the greatest naval power in Westeros and in the sea they are tough to beat. If Victarion did not blunder against Stannis, they had a greater chance of winning. It almost looks like the plot wanted them to lose.

 

[Lord Cadwan]

Balon was a good commander and has effectively won a large part of the north with minimal losses of probably less than a 1000 men. The reason the Ironborn have since lost the North is that due to Balon's death most of them abandoned it and Euron does not care about it. If Balon had not died they would still hold Moat Cailin, the bulk of the North's trained forces would be in the south and they would be unlikely to lose Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square and the other territories they had conquered any time soon with the potential to gain more territories quite easily due to military superiority over the North's remaining armies. For those people saying Balon should have joined the Starks and taken Lannisport Balon himself says they would have lacked the strength to hold it and would have incurred heavy losses taking it. I would actually say Balon was the best commander of the War of the Five Kings as before his death which nobody could have foreseen they had taken plenty of territory with minimal losses and trapped their main opposing force in the south whilst still only committing a portion of their available forces to the conquest. The fact that it says in the World of Ice and Fire that large portions of the west coast of the north had been held by Ironborn in the past shows that their plans were feasible and could have worked if not for the unforeseen consequence of Balon's untimely death.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

This is just idiocity galore. You cannot defend the north from the northmen who are living up north by holding Moat Cailin.

Seems that you can. Why was Robb planning taking his entire Northern army (and the Freys) North if Moat Cailin was so easy to take from the Northmen who are 'living up North'?

Clearly Robb does not share your opinion.

6 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

The Starks were Kings of the North for thousands of years without holding Moat Cailin.

How does that make any sense? You mean the 'Kings of Winter', right? They would not be Kings of the North until they actually held all the North including Moat Cailin.

 

[Paxter Redwyne]

25 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Blackwater, Battle of Winterfell. Need I say more?

Battle of Winterfell happened only in show.

Stannis would have won kings landing if not tyrell forces showed up what he could not know. He lost most of his fleet, but thats mainly fault of imry florent and tyrion's clever idea. You can argue that stannis should get tyrell support before they joined joffrey, but we all know that stannis is terrible in diplomacy.

@edited  

Yes, say more, i am really curious.

 

[watcher of the night]

18 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Seems that you can. Why was Robb planning taking his entire Northern army (and the Freys) North if Moat Cailin was so easy to take from the Northmen who are 'living up North'?

Clearly Robb does not share your opinion.

How does that make any sense? You mean the 'Kings of Winter', right? They would not be Kings of the North until they actually held all the North including Moat Cailin.

 

You don't seem to understand the problem. You know northmen living up north, not all of them went to south with Robb. How do you defend the north from those northmen who are living up north by holding Moat Cailin?

Yes, they were called "Kings of Winter" so what? They did not need Moat Cailin for that, in fact the Moat is one the latest if not the latest addition to their kingdom.

Yes it prevents Robb from returning, but you are deluding yourself to think that there was no one north to the Moat willing to fight vs the ironborn. In fatc that was the main reason why Balon did not help Theon, you said it yourself: he was cautios not to overextend his forces. If north was empty and defensless how could he overextend?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

17 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

You don't seem to understand the problem. You know northmen living up north, not all of them went to south with Robb. How do you defend the north from those northmen who are living up north by holding Moat Cailin?

Where were these North men?

Why did Robb not try and get these Northmen to win back Moat Cailin?

17 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Yes, they were called "Kings of Winter" so what? They did not need Moat Cailin for that, in fact the Moat is one the latest if not the latest addition to their kingdom.

Is it? Source?

17 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Yes it prevents Robb from returning, but you are deluding yourself to think that there was no one north to the Moat willing to fight vs the ironborn.

So how come they didnt?

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just because Balon makes a statement, does not make it fact. Just because he says Winterfell would only have held out for a year does not mean that he was connected to reality when saying so. Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, Euron is maddest of all, remember.

The Starks could not take the Dreadfort in a 2 year siege, despite having the full power of the North behind them. How does Balon hope to take Winterfell in just 1 year, 500 miles from the ocean? He is disconnected from reality.

His plan was to take the coastal keeps and the abandoned Moat Cailin, and then hope that the rest of the North can somehow be brought under his control over time. This has not been achieved in 8000 years, even when the Ironborn were far stronger, and the North less united than it is today.

His best hope was to take the coastal keeps and then Winter would arrive. How is he going to out-campaign the Northmen in Winter, on their home turf, away from the ocean, which is the only area where the Ironborn have an advantage?

He was delusional. Asha who is obviously the saner of the two said as much. "The North is too large, and has too many Northmen in it".

Come summer, the Ironborn would have been huddled around their coastal strongholds and the North would have had 5 years to plan a campaign against them.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just because Balon makes a statement, does not make it fact. Just because he says Winterfell would only have held out for a year does not mean that he was connected to reality when saying so. Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, Euron is maddest of all, remember.

Seriously? You are seriously discounting Balon's statement and taking Baelor Blacktyde's statement as fact?

Balon was right on the money with everything else in his plan. We the reader saw how pitiful the Capitals defences were.  Balon overestimated how long Winterfell could withstand.

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Starks could not take the Dreadfort in a 2 year siege, despite having the full power of the North behind them.

Source for full power of the North?

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

How does Balon hope to take Winterfell in just 1 year, 500 miles from the ocean? He is disconnected from reality.

And yet it happened? 12 months ahead of schedule.

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

His plan was to take the coastal keeps and the abandoned Moat Cailin, and then hope that the rest of the North can somehow be brought under his control over time. This has not been achieved in 8000 years, even when the Ironborn were far stronger, and the North less united than it is today.

His plan was working, was it not? Everything he planned for had been accomplished.

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

His best hope was to take the coastal keeps and then Winter would arrive. How is he going to out-campaign the Northmen in Winter, on their home turf, away from the ocean, which is the only area where the Ironborn have an advantage?

Who knows. We were not shared that part of the plan. Perhaps he thought his deal with the Crown would pan out, perhaps once Robb and his army was defeated the rest of the north would compromise and make a peace or that Balon only really cared about the West Coast and was perfectly okay with only half of the North.

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

He was delusional. Asha who is obviously the saner of the two said as much. "The North is too large, and has too many Northmen in it".

You mean Asha who says:

If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Come summer, the Ironborn would have been huddled around their coastal strongholds and the North would have had 5 years to plan a campaign against them.

Maybe. All we can judge on is what actually happened in the books not the fan fiction we make up in our heads were the North has a much, much larger armies than they seem to have in the books written by GRRM.

 

Based on the books Balon did better than at least two of the other five Kings.

[The Wolves]

4 hours ago, khal drogon said:

North could be easier to hold once you have the Moat Cailin. I am not saying it is easy but better than the stupidity of invading Westerlands.

But what would holding Moat Cailin have gained Balon. He couldnt live off the land, the Northmen would have attacked from the North and what about the Cannogmen and their poisonous darts? 

Balon trying to hold Moat Cailin was stupid. 

Plus Manderly was building a navy, winter was coming and the North is just way to big to hold. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And yet it happened? 12 months ahead of schedule.

And yet Balon was angry when it happened because Theon taking winterfell wasn't planned by him.He wanted to siege winterfell what is clearly harder than plot twist.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

9 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And yet Balon was angry when it happened because Theon taking winterfell wasn't planned by him.He wanted to siege winterfell what is clearly harder than plot twist.

Balon was angry? When is that mentioned?

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Seriously? You are seriously discounting Balon's statement and taking Baelor Blacktyde's statement as fact?

Balon was right on the money with everything else in his plan. We the reader saw how pitiful the Capitals defences were.  Balon overestimated how long Winterfell could withstand.

Source for full power of the North?

And yet it happened? 12 months ahead of schedule.

His plan was working, was it not? Everything he planned for had been accomplished.

Who knows. We were not shared that part of the plan. Perhaps he thought his deal with the Crown would pan out, perhaps once Robb and his army was defeated the rest of the north would compromise and make a peace or that Balon only really cared about the West Coast and was perfectly okay with only half of the North.

You mean Asha who says:

If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square

Maybe. All we can judge on is what actually happened in the books not the fan fiction we make up in our heads were the North has a much, much larger armies than they seem to have in the books written by GRRM.

 

Based on the books Balon did better than at least two of the other five Kings.

Here is the most damning bit of all.

Even despite the absurd plot twist that allowed Winterfell to be taken by 20 sea raiders 500 miles from the sea, Balon's plan STILL would have failed, despite him holding Moat Cailin. Why? Because Robb was on his way back, through the Neck, to rally the North and eject the Ironborn. That was what he was about to embark on immediately after the Red Wedding.

So Balon STILL would have faced Robb, and would still have been attacked  at Moat Cailin FROM THE NORTH.

What you fail to understand, is that the North's primary problem was not a lack of men, but a lack of unifying leadership after Winterfell was taken. It was a temporary period of chaos and uncertainty. But all it needed was a Stark to unite them and galvanize them against the Ironborn.

Even if the lowest possible estimate for the North's strength is used, they still number around 35k men in total. That is the absolute lowest estimate for the North's full strength, using every reasonable fact at our disposal. So even without any of Robb's 20k men, the North still had around 15k men left. On their home turf. With Winter approaching. With cavalry where the Ironborn have none. With strong keeps. With knowledge of the environment. Fighting for their homes.

Even with the Umbers having left only old men and boys behind, Jon said they would still have bled Stannis's veteran host dry on a 100 league march through the Umber lands, where they know every nook and cranny.

Why would the result be any different when the Ironborn try to march across the North for any extended distances overland? It would not.

Balon was delusional.

[Paxter Redwyne]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Balon was angry? When is that mentioned?

Asha said that to theon. Also everything suggests that as balon strongly hated him. He also told Aeron that he was fool.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Asha said that to theon. Also everything suggests that as balon strongly hated him. He also told Aeron that he was fool.

Does she? Do you have a quote for that?

"Father commanded me to take Deepwood Motte," she snapped. "He said nothing of me having to rescue my little brother."
"Bugger Deepwood," he said. "It's a wooden pisspot on a hill. Winterfell is the heart of the land, but how am I to hold it without a garrison?"
"You might have thought of that before you took it. Oh, it was cleverly done, I'll grant you. If only you'd had the good sense to raze the castle and carry the two little princelings back to Pyke as hostages, you might have won the war in a stroke."

There is nothing about Balon's anger.

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Here is the most damning bit of all.

Even despite the absurd plot twist that allowed Winterfell to be taken by 20 sea raiders 500 miles from the sea, Balon's plan STILL would have failed, despite him holding Moat Cailin. Why? Because Robb was on his way back, through the Neck, to rally the North and eject the Ironborn. That was what he was about to embark on immediately after the Red Wedding.

lol that was a HAIL MARY! Robb was so confident of that plan working that, despite being 16 and newly married, started worrying about who his heir would be.

It was a complete long shot as he was out of options, as his Aunt refused to allow him to use her ships to get back home.

 

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

What you fail to understand, is that the North's primary problem was not a lack of men, but a lack of unifying leadership after Winterfell was taken. It was a temporary period of chaos and uncertainty. But all it needed was a Stark to unite them and galvanize them against the Ironborn.

What is this thread about? It is about Military command not your delusional fan fictions about how strong the North is.

If the North was not left with strong leadership then that falls under the remit of the Norths military commander.

 

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Even if the lowest possible estimate for the North's strength is used, they still number around 35k men in total. That is the absolute lowest estimate for the North's full strength, using every reasonable fact at our disposal. So even without any of Robb's 20k men, the North still had around 15k men left. On their home turf. With Winter approaching. With cavalry where the Ironborn have none. With strong keeps. With knowledge of the environment. Fighting for their homes.

 Numbers is not everything, as we see with Ramsay's 600 versus the poorly trained 2k with Rodrik many of whom were boys with little experience of war fare.

And once again, why is Robb not using this force? Why does he need his entire Northern army and the Freys to retake the North if there is all these other Northern soldiers sitting on their ass doing nothing?

Do you know more about the North's capabilities than Robb?

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Balon was delusional.

And yet successful according to what happened in the actual books written by the author. Which is what we are discussing, not the fan fiction that you want to have happened.

[khal drogon]

35 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

But what would holding Moat Cailin have gained Balon. He couldnt live off the land, the Northmen would have attacked from the North and what about the Cannogmen and their poisonous darts? 

Balon trying to hold Moat Cailin was stupid. 

Plus Manderly was building a navy, winter was coming and the North is just way to big to hold. 

The major point against him is Winter. Thanks for reminding. 

To say the truth he wouldn't get anything from holding the North other than satisfying his ego. But we are talking about his strategies  and rating him as a military commander. What he wanted from the North is irrelevant here.

[Paxter Redwyne]

I am pretty sure that somewhere in this chapter asha stated that balon was angry. Or maybe i heard it in the tv show. But nonethless, balon didn't cared much about theon.

[The Drunkard]

Balon never would have conquered the North. He simply didn't have the men or the wealth to force the entire kingdom into submission. The way I see it, and the only answer that doesn't make him a moron in my eyes, is that he intended to pen Robb and the main northern force down in the south while giving his own men free reign to loot, burn and otherwise terrorize the North, thereby forcing a desperate Robb to the table and having him surrender certain lands/acknowledge Balon's conquests.

[khal drogon]

7 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

Balon never would have conquered the North. He simply didn't have the men or the wealth to force the entire kingdom into submission. The way I see it, and the only answer that doesn't make him a moron in my eyes, is that he intended to pen Robb and the main northern force down in the south while giving his own men free reign to loot, burn and otherwise terrorize the North, thereby forcing a desperate Robb to the table and having him surrender certain lands/acknowledge Balon's conquests.

I think this too. He wanted victory against the Starks not the North. His plan did not even include taking Winterfell.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Remind us of the biggest Northern army that Balon actually defeated. Was it that Tallhart kid's 100 or so Young Hares on the Stony Shore? Was it a skeleton garrison of 50 men at Torhenn Square?

Note that Balon never actually defeated Ser Rodrik. In fact, Rodrik kicked Ironborn ass rather comprehensively with his 2000 men at Torhenn Square.

Rodrik never lost to Balon. Rodrik 's army was destroyed by the Boltons.

Similarly, the Dustins and Ryswells wiped out the Ironborn on the Fever River.

So the idea that Balon was this monstrously difficult foe to the Northman is not actually borne out by any major battles that he won against them. In fact, the evidence suggests that once the Northmen were able to gather any decent army together they made short work of the vaunted "Ironmen".