What the show got better than the books

[StepStark]

11 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

That statement makes no sense at all. You can like both, but recognise when one has done something better than the other.

Theoretically, one can like the source material and adaptation both, if both have qualities. But this is not such a case. GOT simply fails in ever way compared to the books. That is not my bias, that is the reality. I am sorry if you haven't seen enough shows to know what is a good storytelling on TV and what isn't. But in all honesty, this isn't. GOT is a major screw-up. To enjoy it, you must have very low demands from TV shows in general, and you must have very low demands from adaptation of ASOIAF. And because of that second part I wrote what I wrote. I think it really isn't hard to understand it.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, StepStark said:

Theoretically, one can like the source material and adaptation both, if both have qualities. But this is not such a case. GOT simply fails in ever way compared to the books. That is not my bias, that is the reality. I am sorry if you haven't seen enough shows to know what is a good storytelling on TV and what isn't. But in all honesty, this isn't. GOT is a major screw-up. To enjoy it, you must have very low demands from TV shows in general, and you must have very low demands from adaptation of ASOIAF. And because of that second part I wrote what I wrote. I think it really isn't hard to understand it.

Lol, that comment sums up exactly what was talked about earlier

[StepStark]

10 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Really?!

you take away so much from your pleasure if you are so absolute about one or the other! I may have issues with both an yet I love both,

There is a whole thread where posters count as traitors if they dare to like anything in the show. I have been annoyed by so much arrogance but by now I only pity the posters there who dedicate so much of their time to negativity instead of having fun. Worse: they enjoy dedicating their life to negativity. Well....enjoy

i like the characterization of Cersei so much better in the show. She is not cartoonishly evil but a mother who loves her kids. She does not fit into the cliché of saintly madonnalike mother who has no ambition of her own. She is no monster, she is a parent who fails, a ruthless politician who has little compunctions, a desperate lover. She is relatable person, more than in the books. 

Tywin! Charles Dance!

Jorah! Ian Glen!

Tyrion's confession! I laughed tears! Dinklage in general!

And Dany's wedding night is so much more believable in the series than in the books! A shy thirteen year old enjoying her own rape and abuse. Given what we see in the news today  It was a mistake by Martin to romanticize the wedding night scene. We know better now and we did not think about forced marriages back then when it was still some kind of exotic custom. The book has been written many years ago and by now we are much more aware of rape and abduction of girls, given what IS and Boko Haram did and continue to do. Today I guess Martin would have gone the way of the show and would have been very clear about what was done to Dany. Imagine the - justified - outrage if the show had romanticized the forced consummation at the wedding night in light of present day political events and fanaticism hatred of women! 

But Dany taking charge of her fate and relating to Drogo is believable in both books and show, she has been characterized as resilient and strong.

 

Why would you think that I am taking away anything from my pleasure? Do you think that I dislike GOT on purpose? It wasn't my choice. GOT is simply terrible. I have nothing to do with that. I'm simply reacting to what I see on screen. It's not my fault that what I see is usually terrible.

And also, Cersei is really not cartoonish in the books in any way. She's far from cartoonish even before she becomes POV character, and after that she only gained depth. Cersei in the show is a different story, because she is all over the place, literally.

[shadow282]

3 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Theoretically, one can like the source material and adaptation both, if both have qualities. But this is not such a case. GOT simply fails in ever way compared to the books. That is not my bias, that is the reality. I am sorry if you haven't seen enough shows to know what is a good storytelling on TV and what isn't. But in all honesty, this isn't. GOT is a major screw-up. To enjoy it, you must have very low demands from TV shows in general, and you must have very low demands from adaptation of ASOIAF. And because of that second part I wrote what I wrote. I think it really isn't hard to understand it.

[sweetsunray]

56 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

So by simplifying it, making it more about one single emotive issue you can get your head around, the show helped to create tension in the show that didn't exist in the book.

Just making sure here... Are you saying GOT is "aSoIaF for Dummies"?

[dsug]

The books are one of the finest series out their right now. The show is one of the finest series out there right now. 

I could talk for hours but I'll pick some highlights. 

-The White Walkers are an actual present threat that do things and appear. 

-Cersei has some shred of intelligence behind her very pretty face. 

- Everybody has personalities and likes and dislikes and attitudes and flaws. George has a habit of giving characters names, claiming they did something, and then never adding anything else about them. Almost all characters on the show have personalities, rather than just summaries of what they did according to someone else (Robb Stark, Margaery Tyrell, hell even Tommen's a sensitive, but romantic guy in the show. GRRM Tommen is a little boy that mentions a dislike for beets. That's a deep as we go). 

-Increased relationship between Tywin and all his children. Cersei and Tywin in particular are gold together.  

-resolutions to stories. The show has already resolved a lot of stories that George is still dragging on. Stannis comes to mind. They had Stannis crash and burn. Some people liked it, some didn't. At least they told a story and ended a story. George is still stringing Stannis along, pretending that his relevance didn't die with Blackwater. 

and last but not least 

-the show is actually coming out in the foreseeable future

[StepStark]

10 hours ago, Woman of War said:

And Dany's wedding night is so much more believable in the series than in the books! A shy thirteen year old enjoying her own rape and abuse. Given what we see in the news today  It was a mistake by Martin to romanticize the wedding night scene. We know better now and we did not think about forced marriages back then when it was still some kind of exotic custom. The book has been written many years ago and by now we are much more aware of rape and abduction of girls, given what IS and Boko Haram did and continue to do. Today I guess Martin would have gone the way of the show and would have been very clear about what was done to Dany. Imagine the - justified - outrage if the show had romanticized the forced consummation at the wedding night in light of present day political events and fanaticism hatred of women! 

I think you're confusing Martin with D&D. They are the ones who write rape scenes unintentionally. Martin doesn't do that. He knows the difference between rape and not rape. And Dany's wedding night is not written as rape. Therefore, Martin isn't romanticizing rape. He is romanticizing Dany's wedding night, which he's perfectly entitled to, because he created the story and the characters. But he's not romanticizing rape. If you think that he is, then it's you who are reading something into it.

And before you say something else, in ADWD Dany still bitterly remembers what it means when you're being sold. So Martin isn't romanticizing anything. Not even arranged/forced marriages. He simply made a realistic story with realistic characters in a setting that is very similar to realistic settings from our history. It is you who read ISIS and Boko Haram into it. That has nothing to do with Martin.

And honestly, what does "so much more believable" mean anyway? What is so believable or unbelievable about Dany's wedding night in either version? You do know that arranged marriages in our history were not all disastrous, right? You are aware that not all arranged marriages in ASOIAF are disastrous? If you think Dany's wedding night is unrealistic, do you also think that Ned and Cat's marriage is also unrealistic? I'm curious, where do you draw the line? Is it maybe because one is changed in the show, and the other isn't? If in the show Ned too was depicted as someone who raped Cat on their wedding night, would you find their marriage from the books unrealistic too?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Just making sure here... Are you saying GOT is "aSoIaF for Dummies"?

Not saying it's for dummies, but does it need to be simplified in considering its limited screen time and wide ranging audience, yes of course 

[sweetsunray]

25 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Not saying it's for dummies, but does it need to be simplified in considering its limited screen time and wide ranging audience, yes of course 

Just making sure, since you seemed to be complaining you "couldn't wrap your head" around Jon's arc in aDwD, even though it's written in plain English without too complex a grammar, vocabulary or punctuation. It's not as if you're struggling through Joyce's Ulyssis. You seemed to say it was so difficult to "wrap your head around it" that you could not feel the "tension" (aka excitement?), which I do understand. When people do not comprehend something, they do tend to judge it as boring or tedious.

Time constraints in a visual medium indeed can warrant cutting out subplots (even significant ones), but when you desire it because you can't wrap your head around the original it seems to me you were talking about "dumbing down" instead of "simplification".

Anyway, thanks for explaining. Carry on

[Woman of War]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

Why would you think that I am taking away anything from my pleasure? Do you think that I dislike GOT on purpose? It wasn't my choice. GOT is simply terrible. I have nothing to do with that. I'm simply reacting to what I see on screen. It's not my fault that what I see is usually terrible.

...

Ok, you don't like the series. It wasn't your choice to dislike it but it is your choice if you continue to torture yourself with it.  

If I don't like something I simply move on to something I do like. It is not that earth gets shattered by people who stop watching GOT. I could vote with my remote control and switch it off. Free time for something else.

Don't  get get me wrong, I can be passionate and persistent about issues I do not like, racism, censorship, gender issues, poisoned rivers, whatever. Talking about it is important. Or if I were a journalist it would be my job to tell the world what I think about this or that, book and movie features e.g., apart from the income  I'd earn by doing so. But since I watch GOT for my personal private pleasure  I am free to stop any time.

Disliking a tv series as much as you seem to do or a book, a movie or a restaurant is not earth shattering enough to make so many words about it.  If I do not like it I move on because life is too valuable to waste it with ranting. I prefer positive change to feeling at home in my little soup bowl of negativity.

I am no longer annoyed by that thread, I feel sorry for those who have nothing better to do.

So many words, LOL, for simply telling that I don't understand you  

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Just making sure, since you seemed to be complaining you "couldn't wrap your head" around Jon's arc in aDwD, even though it's written in plain English without too complex a grammar, vocabular or punctuation. It's not as if you're struggling through Joyce's Ulyssis. That it was so difficult to "wrap your head around it" that you could not feel the "tension" (aka excitement?).

Time constraints in a visual medium indeed can warrant cutting out subplots (even significant ones), but when you desire it because you can't wrap your head around the original it seems to me you were talking about "dumbing down" instead of "simplification".

Anyway, thanks for explaining. Carry on

I understand Jons arc, I just felt almost nothing whilst reading it. It wasn't a slow build up, or a increase in momentum, it was a Chinese water torture of almost endless problems for him to fix, none of which were especially thrilling. 

Dumbing down isn't a completely unfair term, if you have a lot of complex issues happening all at once and the author is making those problems obscure or hiding a lot of the discontent Jon has to deal with, then it's very hard to communicate that, especially on screen ( I don't think it was well communicated on the page either). So you have to boil it down to its simplest parts, and make it easier to understand for everyone. 

Thats something that applies to a lot of the show. It doesn't mean the show is dumb, it's not. But it's not just not doing things the same as the books and shouldn't be expected to.

[Tianzi]

22 minutes ago, StepStark said:

And honestly, what does "so much more believable" mean anyway? What is so believable or unbelievable about Dany's wedding night in either version? You do know that arranged marriages in our history were not all disastrous, right? You are aware that not all arranged marriages in ASOIAF are disastrous?

Dany's marriage is neither written nor depicted in the show as disastrous. I also don't have a problem with the sole scene of their wedding night in the books and I think it still stays clear on what an adult man boning a sold 13-year old is. However, it doesn't really go with their later interactions, when the romantic wedding Drogo abruptly changes back into a barbarian, just because his bride isn't a virgin anymore. So I prefer the show depiction where he is a consistent barbarian figure from the beginning and their relationship only starts to improve when she gains his respect.

Tywin - well, I'm not a fan of much of the show writing (Harrenhall in particular is disastrous), and I was hesitant in including actors' performances in comparisons, but... Tywin was perfectly written in the books, but Dance just Tywined him up on screen.

Cersei - given how much we see of her, it's good she is not so tiresome anymore, though I now have a problem to see her as a villain.

Dany's storyline - I feel like I'm watching a cartoon, but it's at least enjoyable in a silly way, while the book version was yawnfest past a certain point.

Less food and traveling, and people whose names you just won't remember - 'nuff said.

The Greyjoys were awesome back in season 2 and Theon is still one of the highlights.

 

And well, I do have 'you must be joking' reaction to many of the examples in this thread (not the music, it was a valid point :D), but I feel that arguing over them will cause this thread to descend into complaining.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

A lot of whether you prefer the books or the shows comes from which you read/watched first. I re-read the books after a long time and after watching all the shows back to back last year, and I'd forgotten so much of the books as I have a terrible memory, and some of the poor decisions and poor writing of GRRM did wind me up quite a lot, which I don't remember the first time around because I had nothing to compare it against and I was just trying to follow the story.

Both the show and the books are very strong in their own mediums, which are enormously different and something unless you are in the writing industry you will not really understand, and thus they should not be compared too literally or too closely.

[StepStark]

6 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Dany's marriage is neither written nor depicted in the show as disastrous. I also don't have a problem with the sole scene of their wedding night in the books and I think it still stays clear on what an adult man boning a sold 13-year old is. However, it doesn't really go with their later interactions, when the romantic wedding Drogo abruptly changes back into a barbarian, just because his bride isn't a virgin anymore. So I prefer the show depiction where he is a consistent barbarian figure from the beginning and their relationship only starts to improve when she gains his respect.

But that's the thing, he doesn't change after the wedding night. And it's not about Dany not being a virgin any more. If you read the chapter in question, I'm sure you'll see that he's not forcing Dany. He's not even aware how hurt she is because of their intercourses. That doesn't make him a gentleman, but it also doesn't make him a rapist either. That's just him being his usual Dothraki. And anyway, Drogo's entire storyline is about him being undecided what does he want to be, does he want to stay a Dothraki or to become something else. So the beginning of his relationship with Dany fits perfectly into that. In my opinion, it would be unrealistic if he was gentle and watchful toward Dany all the time. He is a Dothraki after all. But he never hurts her intentionally. And, since I read the books long before the show, I don't remember anyone interpreting their wedding night as rape before the show. And I also don't remember anyone having any problem with Dany's next chapter and her agony. It really isn't about Drogo, but about Dany and how she adjusts to Dothraki way of life, and how she changes it when needed.

[shadow282]

10 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But that's the thing, he doesn't change after the wedding night. And it's not about Dany not being a virgin any more. If you read the chapter in question, I'm sure you'll see that he's not forcing Dany. He's not even aware how hurt she is because of their intercourses. That doesn't make him a gentleman, but it also doesn't make him a rapist either. That's just him being his usual Dothraki. And anyway, Drogo's entire storyline is about him being undecided what does he want to be, does he want to stay a Dothraki or to become something else. So the beginning of his relationship with Dany fits perfectly into that. In my opinion, it would be unrealistic if he was gentle and watchful toward Dany all the time. He is a Dothraki after all. But he never hurts her intentionally. And, since I read the books long before the show, I don't remember anyone interpreting their wedding night as rape before the show. And I also don't remember anyone having any problem with Dany's next chapter and her agony. It really isn't about Drogo, but about Dany and how she adjusts to Dothraki way of life, and how she changes it when needed.

Yeah, there's absolutely no change between the wedding night, where he's described as gentle, tender, and never hurting her, to the rest of the times when she's trying not to cry in pain, bruised and in too much pain to sleep, and seriously considering suicide because she'd rather die than keep living with him.

Not at all different. Completely the same in every way. No changes.

Not sure how anyone could not see something that's so incredibly clear. Must just have very, very poor reading comprehension.

[Richard Writhen]

The show and the books have been "different animals" for quite some time. In fact, that's actually become part of the charm, being able to be outraged at stuff like S4 spoiler:

Spoiler

Arya killing Rorge.

 

[Maid So Fair]

1, Aging up the characters - makes many scenes a lot more believable

2, Omitting Sansa telling Ned's plans to Cersei, not that it has stopped people hating on Sansa. 

3, Skipping Tyrion's travels through Essos. Wish they kept him being sold into slavery, though - his getting to Dany was way too easy.

4, I prefer the show version of Jorah.

5, Show Cersei is way too nice, but watching her is far preferable to being in her head in AFFC and I think softening her around the edges was a good move.

6, No Ironborn (so far).

7, Jaquen - I like him in the books but I love the way the actor plays him.

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, shadow282 said:

Yeah, there's absolutely no change between the wedding night, where he's described as gentle, tender, and never hurting her, to the rest of the times when she's trying not to cry in pain, bruised and in too much pain to sleep, and seriously considering suicide because she'd rather die than keep living with him.

Not at all different. Completely the same in every way. No changes.

Not sure how anyone could not see something that's so incredibly clear. Must just have very, very poor reading comprehension.

Since you're talking about reading comprehension, please tell me where does Dany say or think that she'd rather die than keep living with him. And this is direct quote from the books, from the chapter in question:

Quote

 

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night . . .

 

So, it is pretty obvious that she doesn't want to carry on like that, but it is stated nowhere that she doesn't want to keep living with him.

As for Drogo, you can clearly see that he's unaware of the agony he's putting Dany through. The paragraph is worded that way for a reason. Again, it doesn't make Drogo a shining knight, but it doesn't make him a rapist either. I'm sorry some think only in black and white, and therefore miss all the complexity of Drogo's character. And he's complex from the very start. He is someone who marries a young girl of 13 years, but he's also someone who asks for her approval before he penetrates her. He is someone who keeps ignoring his new wife and doesn't notice her agony, but he's also someone who gladly accepts her initiative as soon as she shows some, later in the same chapter. Throughout the entire book, Drogo is of two minds. He is like that on their wedding night, too, because after all he is marrying a 13 year old girl who's been sold by her own brother. Pity that you missed that, but he really isn't a shining knight on their wedding night either. He's actually trying to be better than the rest of Dothraki, but he's also trying to stay a Dothraki. That's what got him killed at the end.

It's all there, in the book. You just need a reading comprehension that is slightly above the average comprehension of the show fanboy.

[shadow282]

13 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Since you're talking about reading comprehension, please tell me where does Dany say or think that she'd rather die than keep living with him. And this is direct quote from the books, from the chapter in question:

 

 

So, it is pretty obvious that she doesn't want to carry on like that, but it is stated nowhere that she doesn't want to keep living with him.

As for Drogo, you can clearly see that he's unaware of the agony he's putting Dany through. The paragraph is worded that way for a reason. Again, it doesn't make Drogo a shining knight, but it doesn't make him a rapist either. I'm sorry some think only in black and white, and therefore miss all the complexity of Drogo's character. And he's complex from the very start. He is someone who marries a young girl of 13 years, but he's also someone who asks for her approval before he penetrates her. He is someone who keeps ignoring his new wife and doesn't notice her agony, but he's also someone who gladly accepts her initiative as soon as she shows some, later in the same chapter. Throughout the entire book, Drogo is of two minds. He is like that on their wedding night, too, because after all he is marrying a 13 year old girl who's been sold by her own brother. Pity that you missed that, but he really isn't a shining knight on their wedding night either. He's actually trying to be better than the rest of Dothraki, but he's also trying to stay a Dothraki. That's what got him killed at the end.

It's all there, in the book. You just need a reading comprehension that is slightly above the average comprehension of the show fanboy.

You just quoted the exact passage that says that she wanted to kill herself. If you honestly can't figure it out from that, try reading it again. Maybe slowly would help you?

You said he doesn't change after the wedding night. He very clearly does. Again, in the paragraph you so helpfully quoted, so thanks for that. Makes this much easier. Maybe slower reading would help here too?

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

But that's the thing, he doesn't change after the wedding night. And it's not about Dany not being a virgin any more. If you read the chapter in question, I'm sure you'll see that he's not forcing Dany. He's not even aware how hurt she is because of their intercourses. That doesn't make him a gentleman, but it also doesn't make him a rapist either. That's just him being his usual Dothraki. And anyway, Drogo's entire storyline is about him being undecided what does he want to be, does he want to stay a Dothraki or to become something else. So the beginning of his relationship with Dany fits perfectly into that. In my opinion, it would be unrealistic if he was gentle and watchful toward Dany all the time. He is a Dothraki after all. But he never hurts her intentionally. And, since I read the books long before the show, I don't remember anyone interpreting their wedding night as rape before the show. And I also don't remember anyone having any problem with Dany's next chapter and her agony. It really isn't about Drogo, but about Dany and how she adjusts to Dothraki way of life, and how she changes it when needed.

I agree. She tries very hard to adapt; by trying to become a rider despite the pain and saddlesores she gets at first because she's not used to riding. Pain, bruises, and saddlesores that make intercourse a particularly unpleasant and painful experience, especially from behind, Dothraki style. She tries to adapt also by hiding her pain and tears from Drogo who, as you say, is not a knight but never rapes her. And she succeeds, and there's real love between the two, something Dany still remembers fondly.