What the show got better than the books

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Can't there be a single topic that doesn't turn into bashing and getting personal? Can't people be allowed to have their own opinion without someone having to tell them they are wrong? Why can't I say LSH was not needed in the books and I am glad she hasn't been in the show, without someone else deciding I am wrong? People, this is entertainment. Books, television, not life altering things here.

Out of curiosity, what is then the point of posting? If you don't want other people to question your opinion, why not keep it to yourself? I'm really just asking, nothing more.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, StepStark said:

Out of curiosity, what is then the point of posting? If you don't want other people to question your opinion, why not keep it to yourself? I'm really just asking, nothing more.

If you don't want your opinion questioned, the Rant thread exists. 

[Tianzi]

7 minutes ago, dbunting said:

People, this is entertainment. Books, television, not life altering things here.

Tits and dragons are serious business.

To make my post non-off topic (and some of the posters should really follow this example) - little dragons in the show were cute, I'd like to adopt one.
 

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, dsug said:

I'd say if Daenerys would rather die than have sex with drogo, it's non consensual. 

But I didn't say that it was consensual. Dany obviously didn't want to have sex with Drogo that way. She definitely didn't agree to that way of love making. But it still doesn't make it a rape, and it doesn't make Drogo a rapist. Had he known her agony and still continued to cause it, then it would be a rape without a question, in both their culture and ours. But the way Martin wrote it, it isn't a rape, even though Dany is clearly suffering. But her suffering in this case is not too different than any other suffering any other forced spouse goes through. It doesn't mean it's okay, because it isn't. I suspect that is why Martin used such a strong language (she thinking about killing herself), to drive the point home: in this world it's normal, but it really is terrible for persons involved.

[StepStark]

3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

If you don't want your opinion questioned, the Rant thread exists. 

Congratulations, you misunderstood it again. Completely. For the zilionth time.

For the record, I have no problem with my opinion being questioned. The other poster seem to have that problem. That's why I asked him why is he posting at all. But never mind, go on with misunderstanding everything, don't let me stop you.

[TepidHands]

8 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Tits and dragons are serious business.

To make my post non-off topic (and some of the posters should really follow this example) - little dragons in the show were cute, I'd like to adopt one.
 

They'd come in very handy for lighting the grill, toasting marshmallows, and the like. And I'd let one ride in the back of my truck to encourage pesky tailgaters on the highway to back off. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Congratulations, you misunderstood it again. Completely. For the zilionth time.

For the record, I have no problem with my opinion being questioned. The other poster seem to have that problem. That's why I asked him why is he posting at all. But never mind, go on with misunderstanding everything, don't let me stop you.

It seems you misunderstood my post. Congratulations to you also.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Seriously though, why are continuing this rape chat, it will just get you banned and the thread closed.. which I'm sure is your intention.

[StepStark]

3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Seriously though, why are continuing this rape chat, it will just get you banned and the thread closed.. which I'm sure is your intention.

What's my intention? To be banned, or to close the thread? Or both? You seem to know my intentions, please enlighten me!

[HairGrowsBack]

19 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Game of Thrones has a limited number of seasons and episodes in which to cover the vast story GRRM has set up. Every single storyline has to work hard to contribute to pushing that story forwards, via their own plot and the plots surrounding it. Martin doesn't have that worry and his story meanders slowly along, often diverging off in different direction, almost aimlessly at times. Some might like that, personally I found it a little too slow, especially when combined the extreme lack of resolution to most of the plots.

Either way, its not an option for the show. 

You might say Brienne's chapters have action in them, but they don't have any action that remotely ties into any other plots, or have any effect on the main plot at all, until right at the end of her story. Her entire plot is a diversion, a mild short story set alongside the major players, but not really going anyway. Of course that couldn't be included. Also to say all Brienne did is watch a candle is hugely disingenuous. 

The same could be said for Sansa's storyline in particular, and many of the other plotlines that seem to be doing nothing but holding formation until GRRM can figure a way of getting Dany to Westeros.

And characterisation is good, of course, but not at the expense of plot, narrative and pacing. 
 

You're not responding to my comment, though. How is having characters IN character at the expense of the plot ? If anything, it should help it. But we disagree on a fundamental level anyway, since I don't read stories for the plot, but for characters, and you seem to be okay with having empty shells so long as you have a plot (not that the show has a coherent one, mind you).

Again, it is an option for the show. Lots of shows do that, but they're not targetting dudebros, so there is that.

If it is disingenious, how would you describe Brienne's arc in season 5 ? I'm legitimately curious here. And, fwiw, the fact that Brienne has an arc that doesn't necessarily tie her with major characters might mean she has become an important character as well, just a thought.

People love watching complex characters grow and interact with each other, without any showy action scene needed. There is precedent for this, but it looks like the show is not bold enough to do it. 

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

I liked Robb & Talisa's romance on the show better than Robb & Jeyne's non-relationship in the books.  A passionate young man like Robb betraying his word for love is more believable than Robb betraying his word out of respect for Jeyne's honor in the books.  Love is the most powerful drug of all, and Robb was experiencing it for the first time.

I also liked the Daznak's pit scene in the show better than in the books.  I like that the show established a psychic connection between Dany and Drogon, and that Drogon came to protect his mother instead of just smelling blood.  I also liked how they added the Harpies' attack to the scene.

Also like show Tormund better than book Tormund.

Show is great (but not perfect), and so are the books.

[Valetudo]

10 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Can't there be a single topic that doesn't turn into bashing and getting personal? Can't people be allowed to have their own opinion without someone having to tell them they are wrong? Why can't I say LSH was not needed in the books and I am glad she hasn't been in the show, without someone else deciding I am wrong? People, this is entertainment. Books, television, not life altering things here.

 

Well, this is a debate forum, so it's logic that people with other opinions will try to respond when they disagree with you.

I agree that insults and personal attacks are not needed, but most of the posters don't do it. The vast majority just try to respond by giving arguments of their own. Arguments that you can then counter with your own to prove your point. That's called discussion.

If you don't want to deal with opposing points of view, there are two threads in this forum for that: the Rant and Rave one and the Positive gasps. In these threads, debate is not allowed, so you can post your critics or praise freely.

The other threads of the forum are discussion ones. You can have your point of view, and other posters can have theirs. If you feel that another poster is going too far, you can report his/her post. Or even better, use the ignore function. That way, everyone can be happy!

[Dragon in the North]

-Hardhome, giving the White Walkers more of a presence

-making Stannis the protagonist of his own storyline

-Theon killing Rodrick

-moving Sansa's Vale plot to the North (I'm predicting this will have a big payoff this season)

-giving Shireen a bigger role

-Tyrion meeting Danerys

-the Battle at the Wall

-the Hound, Podrick, Mance Raydar, Yoren, and Oberyn are more fleshed out in the show

-focusing on Robb's campaign in the Riverlands and showing him break his vow on screen.

-Varys and Littlefinger

[dbunting]

47 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Out of curiosity, what is then the point of posting? If you don't want other people to question your opinion, why not keep it to yourself? I'm really just asking, nothing more.

If it was a honest discussion, nothing is wrong. When it comes preloaded and is just leading to bashing someone who doesn't think like you, that's different.

[dbunting]

25 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Well, this is a debate forum, so it's logic that people with other opinions will try to respond when they disagree with you.

I agree that insults and personal attacks are not needed, but most of the posters don't do it. The vast majority just try to respond by giving arguments of their own. Arguments that you can then counter with your own to prove your point. That's called discussion.

If you don't want to deal with opposing points of view, there are two threads in this forum for that: the Rant and Rave one and the Positive gasps. In these threads, debate is not allowed, so you can post your critics or praise freely.

The other threads of the forum are discussion ones. You can have your point of view, and other posters can have theirs. If you feel that another poster is going too far, you can report his/her post. Or even better, use the ignore function. That way, everyone can be happy!

But this thread is not a discussion thread at all. Its what each of us feels the show did better than the books. Not, hey anyone who disagrees please tell me that I am not able to have my own opinion. Not every topic is a discussion or debate.

You can't debate someones tastes. I love the El Chapulin restaurant in Adrian Michigan, would be my last meal on earth. If someone else hates it, does that make my love for it invalid or wrong? No, it's just their opinion and they shouldn't try to force it on me or tell me my opinion is wrong. 

[JonSnow4President]

No, but we're free to ask why you have your opinion, and even point out why something you say about that might be illogical.  

Like someone saying Jon shows more leadership in the show than the book (patently false), or that Brienne does more than she did in the Riverlands (also false objectively), or questioning how Sansa being a sex doll for Ramsay is an improvement on "doing nothing" in the Vale.  Or how cutting the Northern lords and reducing the North to sex doll + watching a window for a candle + 20 good men is a better story than the equivalent in the books because ????.

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

4 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

You're not responding to my comment, though. How is having characters IN character at the expense of the plot ? If anything, it should help it. But we disagree on a fundamental level anyway, since I don't read stories for the plot, but for characters, and you seem to be okay with having empty shells so long as you have a plot (not that the show has a coherent one, mind you).

Again, it is an option for the show. Lots of shows do that, but they're not targetting dudebros, so there is that.

If it is disingenious, how would you describe Brienne's arc in season 5 ? I'm legitimately curious here. And, fwiw, the fact that Brienne has an arc that doesn't necessarily tie her with major characters might mean she has become an important character as well, just a thought.

People love watching complex characters grow and interact with each other, without any showy action scene needed. There is precedent for this, but it looks like the show is not bold enough to do it. 

Because I am predominately talking about the plot, and the limitations of making a tv series. Whether they are ' in character', by which you really mean ' the same as they are in the books', is really not what I'm talking about ( and also basically not that important as long as they are consistent within the show universe)

im not sure what it is about my posts that you aren't understanding. Im saying that characters need to be able to push the plot forward because there isn't enough time or room to have them wandering around 'growing' while essentially sitting on their ass. Characterisation and growth is good but it also has to come at the same time as plot progression. That is a reality of the show. 

Brienne in the show at least interacts with major plot lines. She attempts to take back Sansa, is chased off, follows Sansa and makes an attempt to rescue her. She also kills Stannis. The time spent 'watching a candle' is off screen and not taking up any space. 

As opposed to book Brienne who interacts with almost no major plotlines, has a bunch of fights which amount to nothing until eventually she is captured. She would be treading water for an entire season, taking up precious space for the sake of what? It's hard to justify 

Again this is about identifying that there were huge problems with adapting those two books to screen, that possibly didn't exist for the previous 3 books. I'd say only the most blind of Martin fans would fail to recognise those issues. Whether the solutions were better or not, I'm not really trying to defend them here , but if you cannot even recognise those book problems then I'd suggest you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the show, and television in general

[Meera of Tarth]

11 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Because I am predominately talking about the plot, and the limitations of making a tv series. Whether they are ' in character', by which you really mean ' the same as they are in the books', is really not what I'm talking about ( and also basically not that important as long as they are consistent within the show universe)

im not sure what it is about my posts that you aren't understanding. Im saying that characters need to be able to push the plot forward because there isn't enough time or room to have them wandering around 'growing' while essentially sitting on their ass. Characterisation and growth is good but it also has to come at the same time as plot progression. That is a reality of the show. 

Brienne in the show at least interacts with major plot lines. She attempts to take back Sansa, is chased off, follows Sansa and makes an attempt to rescue her. She also kills Stannis. The time spent 'watching a candle' is off screen and not taking up any space. 

As opposed to book Brienne who interacts with almost no major plotlines, has a bunch of fights which amount to nothing until eventually she is captured. She would be treading water for an entire season, taking up precious space for the sake of what? It's hard to justify 

Again this is about identifying that there were huge problems with adapting those two books to screen, that possibly didn't exist for the previous 3 books. I'd say only the most blind of Martin fans would fail to recognise those issues. Whether the solutions were better or not, I'm not really trying to defend them here , but if you cannot even recognise those book problems then I'd suggest you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the show, and television in general

But why is it important to interact with major players? Arya and The Hound in S4 don't interact with any major player, they just stay alone.

Her interaction with Sansa was out of a sudden, it was a coincidence that they meet there, not very realistic.....Anyway, they could have just met like it happened or made her know about Sansa being in Winterfell, but still make her stay in The Riverlands and give her some adventures. There is an scene when she explains her past to Pod which IMO is a very good one; so if that is a good scene, imagine something more adventurous, tied with introspection, like when she speaks with Pod.

Her chapters may be boring for many people, but on screen would have been much better, (I don't know if we will see anything of her chapters in Season 6) but they would have been more interesting that the candle stuff, in which we agree that is not the best of her scenes. But the point is that this candle is her story in Season 5. Nothing else, except her killing Stannis (out of a sudden too). 

[HairGrowsBack]

3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Because I am predominately talking about the plot, and the limitations of making a tv series. Whether they are ' in character', by which you really mean ' the same as they are in the books', is really not what I'm talking about ( and also basically not that important as long as they are consistent within the show universe)

im not sure what it is about my posts that you aren't understanding. Im saying that characters need to be able to push the plot forward because there isn't enough time or room to have them wandering around 'growing' while essentially sitting on their ass. Characterisation and growth is good but it also has to come at the same time as plot progression. That is a reality of the show. 

Brienne in the show at least interacts with major plot lines. She attempts to take back Sansa, is chased off, follows Sansa and makes an attempt to rescue her. She also kills Stannis. The time spent 'watching a candle' is off screen and not taking up any space. 

As opposed to book Brienne who interacts with almost no major plotlines, has a bunch of fights which amount to nothing until eventually she is captured. She would be treading water for an entire season, taking up precious space for the sake of what? It's hard to justify 

Again this is about identifying that there were huge problems with adapting those two books to screen, that possibly didn't exist for the previous 3 books. I'd say only the most blind of Martin fans would fail to recognise those issues. Whether the solutions were better or not, I'm not really trying to defend them here , but if you cannot even recognise those book problems then I'd suggest you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the show, and television in general

But why does the plot requires Jaime to be Cersei's thrall after five seasons, or Sansa to be as dumb as a bag of hammers, or Brienne to be a brute, or Tyrion to be completely white washed ? The plot has nothing to do with that. They could have had the same (nonsensical) events happen and still get the characters mostly right. Take the WST scene for example : it is part of the plot in both books and show, but somehow the show takes a 180 in Jaime and Cersei's interaction. Why ? No one fucking knows.

Overall if you think only the plot matters, you're not appreciating the story, and that's not good writing. If it's just about writing random events, my four year-old nephew can do it. It's how the characters react to what's happening to them (ie the plot) that's at the core of the story.

The last two books ahave editing issues, yes, which ultimately doesn't matter when you're adapting them. But instead of cutting one or two superfluous elements, they adaptated almost nothing and filled the blanks with even more pointless stuff : Missandei/Greyworm romance, brothel scenes, brothel scenes, catfights, catfights, shint useless battle...

Re. Brienne : again, Brienne is to be considered a rather major character, so she can well have some time on her own. AFFC is, more than any other books, a thematic novel, and Brienne, along with Cersei and Jaime, is at the core of the thematic reflection. The only thing she did in season 5, aside from watching the candle, was killing Stannis, and that came out of nowhere. The scene was just so laughable, and unrealistic that even the strongest suspension of disbelief is put to test.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, HairGrowsBack said:

But why does the plot requires Jaime to be Cersei's thrall after five seasons, or Sansa to be as dumb as a bag of hammers, or Brienne to be a brute, or Tyrion to be completely white washed ? The plot has nothing to do with that. They could have had the same (nonsensical) events happen and still get the characters mostly right. Take the WST scene for example : it is part of the plot in both books and show, but somehow the show takes a 180 in Jaime and Cersei's interaction. Why ? No one fucking knows.

Overall if you think only the plot matters, you're not appreciating the story, and that's not good writing. If it's just about writing random events, my four year-old nephew can do it. It's how the characters react to what's happening to them (ie the plot) that's at the core of the story.

The last two books ahave editing issues, yes, which ultimately doesn't matter when you're adapting them. But instead of cutting one or two superfluous elements, they adaptated almost nothing and filled the blanks with even more pointless stuff : Missandei/Greyworm romance, brothel scenes, brothel scenes, catfights, catfights, shint useless battle...

Re. Brienne : again, Brienne is to be considered a rather major character, so she can well have some time on her own. AFFC is, more than any other books, a thematic novel, and Brienne, along with Cersei and Jaime, is at the core of the thematic reflection. The only thing she did in season 5, aside from watching the candle, was killing Stannis, and that came out of nowhere. The scene was just so laughable, and unrealistic that even the strongest suspension of disbelief is put to test.

Ok you seem to be completely incapable of separating the problems with the book  and their high level solutions, with individual character decisions, which makes discussing this very difficult. If you could PLEASE try and just concentrate on what I'm saying rather than getting obsessed about White washing or some nonsense, because its really unhelpful.

Lets just take it from D&D's perspective shall we. 

You have to produce a tv show which has at most maybe 30 episodes left in order to tell the entirety of GRRMs novels, including books he hasn't written. You also have a limited budget, ability to film in different locations and logistical issues. OK? Right so from that point you need to be reasonably economical with which stories you tell and focus on those that move the plot ahead and get the pieces set up for the end game. Those pieces are generally the major characters ( Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa etc ) and also playing out the major events so that the end game can occur (Jon dying, Dany being taken away). That is your one major priority, and the most difficult piece of the puzzle.

You have GRRMs novels which now feature a whole host of new locations, characters and plots. The novels are very long, the major characters don't move a lot forward plot-wise during them, and there are numerous plot-lines that veer off in wildly different directions, many taking the scenic route to their destination. 

So Briennes storyline in the book for instance, you look at it. Does Brienne in the book help us get to our destination in an efficient satisfying manner? The answer is no, her storytelling is not efficient at all, its like a long slow bubble bath.. it takes its time, has some fun and ultimately doesn't result in much other than her bumping into LS. Its a lot of pages, and for what? You may say character growth, but could that be achieved whilst still helping to advance the main plot and surrounding stories? Thats clearly what the intention of the show was. 
Now you don't like the solution. I don't care. I'm trying to help you understand that there are fundamental problems when adapting Martins work.

You can look at all of the storylines in the book and lay out the issues they create when it comes to adaptation, and on the whole the choices the producers made were the correct ones, because they led to a much more streamlined concise version of events, which is their priority. The purpose of the show is NOT to create a word for word recreation of the books, but to create a show that works on its own steam. Lets not pretend there is no characterisation in the show either, the characters might not always be the same as the books, but who cares? Again not the purpose of the show.