A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, LordImp said:

Crackpot: The original dragons was talking dragons like Smaug . With the use of magical horns the Bloodstone Emperor took away that ability and made them slaves .

I now have an image in my head of the BSE as an evil Bilbo. 

But in all seriousness, given Varamyr's description of his "enslaved" animals vs. his wolves, I could see dragons as perhaps being made into slaves.

[LordImp]

Just now, Sly Wren said:

I now have an image in my head of the BSE as an evil Bilbo. 

But in all seriousness, given Varamyr's description of his "enslaved" animals vs. his wolves, I could see dragons as perhaps being made into slaves.

Starting to think that dragons was dangerous and wild predators , but free. Then someone enslaved them. I'm a little bit torn between the idea of dragons being created or just natural creatures enslaved . 

[Jon Fossoway]

You know, the first chapter makes a lot more sense when you look at it with the "nature songs" lense. Will notices trees looking alive, and when the rangers are advancing through the woods, a wolf howls. Sounds like a huge warning the trees and the animales were giving them.

AGoT, I, or "winter is coming, fools".

Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things.

...

Somewhere off in the wood a wolf howled

Will pulled his garron over beneath an ancient gnarled ironwood and dismounted. “Why are you stopping?” Ser Waymar asked.

...

Will could feel it. Four years in the Night’s Watch, and he had never been so afraid. What was it? “Wind. Trees rustling. A wolf. Which sound is it that unmans you so, Gared?”

[DarkSister1001]

15 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Right, but my point is Ghost was only spared for budgetary reasons, not plot reasons. That's terrible.

I'm a glass-half-full gal so I see it as there was no plot reason for him to be there so don't spend the dough when we need it for Wun Wun who does have a plot purpose. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed.

And it would help explain why they include details like the five forts in the World book.

On the dragon bond and wolfbond--I could definitely see the "dragon bond" being violated with horns. Rather like we're told Varamyr's bond with various animals is violent and horrible. And his skin changing of Thistle is abomination. Euron's horn has that same abominable horror to it--kills to get what it wants. So, the idea that this bond could have been violated long ago by other dragon riders/makers--yes. I buy that.

Yeah, I think it makes a lot sense. @LordImp, yes, that was one of my ideas - the BSE mutating the original mutual dragonbond. I have found other clues that dragonbonding is related to greenseer magic, and though I'm far from sure of that, I do like the idea and others have had it as well. It may be that the Westerosi Targs actually rediscovered this, as their dragonbonding seems to be mutually agreeable  - a lot of ink is spilled about how the dragon has to accept the rider. But the dragonbinder horn, if it works as advertised, is basically a psychic rape horn. If that's how Valyria controlled dragons, then the Valyrians were really enslaving dragons. This gets into the mystery of why Valyria never came to Westeros and why the Targs coming there is so significant. When the Targs first came to Westeros, there was an explosion on dragon population. They came with three dragons and in 100 years time, there were like 24 of them. Was it something about the living continent of Westeros that triggered this?  

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

On the black draongs being a different species--I had not thought of that. But I wonder if it might not be more like Ghost is separate from his siblings. The albino wolf, separate and distinct and extra magical--as albinos are in many cultures. I can't prove that Martin is referencing this idea, but he does make a point of distinguishing the white wolf born with his eyes open.

So, perhaps the black dragon is a similar thing? Separate and distinct and more magical? And perhaps much more rare--like an albino. Thus having different characteristics, like Ghost is so distinct from his siblings.

That's a great conparison, I hadn't thought of it on those terms. I have noticed the pale and silver Dany with a black shadow animal is a mirror opposite to Jon dressing all in black and having a white shadow animal, but you're right, Drogon is seperate much like Ghost is. Hard to say if it's just his personality or if the black dragons might be somehow different, but it seems like Martin goes out of his way to show us Drogon's behavior as being different, and both Drogon and Balerion were huge dragons. The Cannibal, the wild black on Dragonstone, was also huge. 

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Starting to think that dragons was dangerous and wild predators , but free. Then someone enslaved them. I'm a little bit torn between the idea of dragons being created or just natural creatures enslaved . 

I tend to think they were wild originally. But perhaps their current form had been modified. 

[LordImp]

@LmL i'm completely on board with the horn being a mental rape of dragons . Which means that Daenerys represents the natural skinchanging bond with dragons while Euron represents the mental rape of dragons with his horn . I will not be surprised if one of the dragons go nuts when Euron or someone else uses that .

Also Nettles gave sheeps to Sheepstealer in order to tame him. So it's pretty clear that there is some natural bound with dragon and rider . The rider needs to build up a relationship to the dragon , just as Targ babies have eggs in their cribbs building a dragonrider relationship even before their birth . 

[Sly Wren]

On June 30, 2016 at 9:14 AM, LmL said:

That's a great conparison, I hadn't thought of it on those terms. I have noticed the pale and silver Dany with a black shadow animal is a mirror opposite to Jon dressing all in black and having a white shadow animal, but you're right, Drogon is seperate much like Ghost is. Hard to say if it's just his personality or if the black dragons might be somehow different, but it seems like Martin goes out of his way to show us Drogon's behavior as being different, and both Drogon and Balerion were huge dragons. The Cannibal, the wild black on Dragonstone, was also huge. 

I had not thought of Cannibal, but you're right. 

So, the albino wolf with his eyes already open has power. And Jon hears his silent call when Ghost gets left behind as a pup--a very powerful bond early on.

The black dragon--would the size alone be the key factor (insert jokes that would make  @Voice giggle here)? Or is it also the psychic bond? Cannibal is huge but never bonded. Always dangerous, no matter who tried.

Which suggests that the dragon bond is MUCH trickier than the Targs fully understood, no? Some riders can bond with the animal--psychically or by tempting with food. But if they couldn't unlock Cannibal, seems like they didn't have a solid, foolproof handle on their nuclear footballs.

[Arry'sFleas]

On 29/06/2016 at 8:10 AM, LmL said:

I believe that we may be headed for anew moon disaster event, which would unleash a new Long Night and the the full-scale invasion of the Others.

how long does the red comet take to come back from its swing around the sun and 'kiss' the remaining Nissa?

I am not convinced the ww/ice dragons existed prior to the LN as i think the first celestial cataclysm provided the raw material for them. So a new cataclysm might bring a lot more raw material...great! but who is going to use it?

But i see a big difference with fire dragons; they are not created in our story. They are born from eggs, they probably started as a product of evolution which is then manipulated by the early breeders/genetic engineers of the time, from Asshai.

Alternatively, and perhaps more poetic, they are 'thunder eggs' deposited by comets, inspired by the long held scientific view that comets played some part in the start of life on earth (amino acids have even been found by NASA on a comet but that was long after GRRM wrote the first book of the series)

[Sly Wren]

On June 30, 2016 at 8:37 AM, King Merrett I Frey said:

You know, the first chapter makes a lot more sense when you look at it with the "nature songs" lense. Will notices trees looking alive, and when the rangers are advancing through the woods, a wolf howls. Sounds like a huge warning the trees and the animales were giving them.

Amen! Especially with some of the trees' being sentinels. Will is protected in the sentinel, watching it all, until he comes down.

Martin brings up the "alert" quality of nature a number of times, but he makes no bones about it in the Game prologue. Only Will really listens, poor man. He hears the "call" to the Watch. But no one listens to him.

On June 30, 2016 at 8:37 AM, King Merrett I Frey said:

AGoT, I, or "winter is coming, fools".

I'm liking this as an addendum to the Stark words. 

Though Arya would amend it further: "Winter is coming, stupid."

On June 30, 2016 at 8:37 AM, King Merrett I Frey said:

Somewhere off in the wood a wolf howled

YUP! The direwolves seem tied to the "let humans live" side, to some extent. Or at least to the "don't mess with nature" side of things. Seems like the Others might very well be too much abomination for them. 

Ghost is the one who brings Jon the wight hand and helps him fight the wight. A specific wolf raising the alarm again for the Watch--like the one Will hears in this scene. Ghost just works silently. And with props.

On June 30, 2016 at 8:37 AM, King Merrett I Frey said:

Will could feel it. Four years in the Night’s Watch, and he had never been so afraid. What was it? “Wind. Trees rustling. A wolf. Which sound is it that unmans you so, Gared?”

"Unmans"--a good choice of words. The Others are quite possibly "unmanned" men. And the wights are definitely "unmanned" with the human souls gone, they become "things" not people. 

And the wolves remind/warn humans of all of this.

[Sly Wren]

7 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

I am not convinced the ww/ice dragons existed prior to the LN as i think the first celestial cataclysm provided the raw material for them. So a new cataclysm might bring a lot more raw material...great! but who is going to use it?

But i see a big difference with fire dragons; they are not created in our story. They are born from eggs, they probably started as a product of evolution which is then manipulated by the early breeders/genetic engineers of the time, from Asshai.

Very possible--but is the idea that the dragons were genetically/magically changed from wyverns into dragons innately at odds with the idea that the material for them came from a comet? 

If that material was necessary for the magic that humans used to transform the wyverns, might not both ideas work? 

Could even help explain how they can still be hatched from petrified eggs. And why their laying and hatching is so sporadic and unpredictable.

[LordImp]

I think dragons started out as wild dragons but was then enslaved with dark magic and horns . Eventually all the wild dragons was enslaved and then someone started to create dragons with dark magic ( wyvern + wyrm ) . So the original dragons was free and natural but was enslaved . The dragons Dany has descends from the enslaved and unatural dragons . All the natural dragons are gone . 

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

I think dragons started out as wild dragons but was then enslaved with dark magic and horns . Eventually all the wild dragons was enslaved and then someone started to create dragons with dark magic ( wyvern + wyrm ) . So the original dragons was free and natural but was enslaved . The dragons Dany has descends from the enslaved and unatural dragons . All the natural dragons are gone . 

If so, are you thinking that the dragon bond we see Dany have with Drogon is only due her magically raising him from store? And that other dragons were. . . bribed/finagled into allowing riders, like some assert that Nettles just fed her dragon until he didn't mind carrying her?

Or are you thinking that although the first/natural dragons were enslaved, some of the enslavers eventually developed a bond with some dragons?

And yes, I could see the dragons has having been once more natural magic and now being fire and blood magic. 

[shizett]

@Sly Wren, this is amazing. I have missed the discussion on this great thread for a while, so please excuse me if some of my comments are a bit out of place. But there were some very minor things I wanted to comment on in the main post:

On 20/04/2016 at 4:36 AM, Sly Wren said:

3. Jon looks as Stark as it gets—long of face and grey of eye. He has more of the North in him than his siblings. Long faced and solemn, like the faces in the Stark crypt. ALL in black—a shadow. Like the dead. Waiting and watching.

Jon has more of the North in him than his brothers, Arya looks as every bit as Stark as Jon.

Quote

Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."  (aGoT, Jon I)

As for him being a shadow, while this was a great quote, we are told in Theon's dream that WF shadows are pale, maybe an allusion to them being related to Others (like Ghost):

Quote

Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. (aCoK, Theon V)

 

On 20/04/2016 at 4:36 AM, Sly Wren said:

Wolfmaid7 shows the importance of song in the novels. In this case, I’d argue that the wolves sing to wake and unite the other wolves.

I really like this idea. I also find it interesting that the NW vow is not a song. It seems to me that in a move from North to south, one also moves from songs to words. While the singers in the North are CotF, wolves, and non-humans in general, Bards are the singers are the south. Very human. So, could it be that the vows are an Andal version of something they could not comprehend?

On 20/04/2016 at 4:52 AM, Sly Wren said:

C. Jon thinks of Sansa, singing while brushing Lady’s coat. (Dance, Jon XIII) And if Sansa were any more associated with songs, the pages in the books themselves would start singing.

            D. Arya listens for wolves howling, not singing. But still—sound. Uniting a pack.

I disagree with this. Lady does not sing, Sansa does. She doesn't sing as a wolf, she sings (and associated with) human songs, not wolf songs.

Arya also starts having wolf dream and hear wolf howls when she is in the south. She finds them friendly, but not yet understanding them as songs. SO, I really am curious if the geography has something to do with this!

On 20/04/2016 at 4:52 AM, Sly Wren said:

But Ghost has not sung. At all. Though Jon wonders if he will—and if the rest of the pack will unite in song with him

Well, he did produce something in that weird passage between the dream and reality from Clash, when Jon/Ghost see Bran in the WW:

Quote

He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. (aCoK, Jon VII)

But it is hardly a song. He also produced some sound for Jon to find him at the very beginning. Jon seems to hear somethings from Ghost, but maybe not consciously.

On 20/04/2016 at 3:09 AM, Sly Wren said:

Only after the threat of the undead begins does Jon finish his dream and wake the dead. There must be a reason for this. Who better to fight the undead wights than woken dead Starks?

At the end (while this was the beginning of your essay), I really like the connections you make here.

I just wanted to add here that if (IF) Jon is a Dayne, the fact that he feels "he does not belong" to WF crypts might be because he belongs to the land of living and that is the underworld. (I am not good with this kind of symbolism, so please bear with me):

All Stark children have their journeys to the underworld (other than Rickon the kid, and Robb the dead): Bran with the cave and BR, Sansa in her snow chapter, and Arya in Hob&W. Bran and Rickon wanted to go to the Crypts after a dream (willingly) and stayed there for a while. They all have been willing, Jon is the only one that isn't. 

The lands beyond the wall seem to be the underworld in our story, but even traveling beyond the wall, Jon never actually sees the army of the dead. While the NW and Bran's group deals with WW and Wights, Jon has many many moments of Dawn and beautiful frost. He falls in love and finds warmth. This could also be why Ghost is silent. If he really is Jon's Stark heritage, Jon has yet to fully accept this part of himself.

But on the other hand, can Ghost be Jon's Dawn? He is pale. Also, since Jon sees a direwolf at the end of one of his dreams, I always thought maybe the reason he feels he does no belong to the crypts is lack of Ghost at his heel. It could work both ways: Ghost as the Stark in Jon, or Ghost as the Dawn that wakes the sleepers!

So basically I completely agree with your conclusion, just had some minor thoughts.

On 20/04/2016 at 8:59 PM, Sly Wren said:

As @Voice was pointing out,  "words are wind" makes it sound like words don't count.

But we see throughout the novels what happens when words aren't heeded. Or get broken. Let alone what happens at the Black Gate.

Exactly, it is mostly Dany that says and believes in those words. And we should never look to Dany for wisdom.

Osha tells Bran that Winds is how the gods talk. So, if winds are god's words and words are winds, does that make each word an oath?

We also have Sweet Robin that is hearing songs in the castle that is famous for its winds (and he is from the blood of Flacons). So, at least in Westeroes, "words are winds" is an evidence of taking them very seriously, not the other way around.

(I think I might have said things that others talked about too, just ignore the similar points, because I need to post it before it becomes too big!)

[LordImp]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If so, are you thinking that the dragon bond we see Dany have with Drogon is only due her magically raising him from store? And that other dragons were. . . bribed/finagled into allowing riders, like some assert that Nettles just fed her dragon until he didn't mind carrying her?

Or are you thinking that although the first/natural dragons were enslaved, some of the enslavers eventually developed a bond with some dragons?

And yes, I could see the dragons has having been once more natural magic and now being fire and blood magic. 

Yes. I am thinking that there once was a natural relationship between rider and dragon until someone simply mentally raped them with horns. So yeah the dragon gets a bond with there enslaver.  

I think the Targaryens rediscovered the skinchanging tradition to dragons. And Danys relationship with Drogon is because Dany is his " mother " Dany was the first one he saw and she has always been together with him so i think their bond is due to that they builded up a relationship , she is his " mother " .

Then we also have the theories that Drogon is possessed by Drogo and thats the reason Dany has a special bond with Drogon. This idea actually makes sense if you give It a second tought. 

[shizett]

 

 

On 17/05/2016 at 1:31 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

SoS Jon 8
 You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away...... They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place.

SoS Sam 4
All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice, and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.

This one seems to be more of the past, recollecting the King's feast at the start of the story, but a feast for the dead. A feast in which his uncle is not mentioned, btw.

 

Have you seen this? It is brilliant.

It also, again, reinforces the idea that Jon is of the living, and the crypts is a liminal place.

On 17/05/2016 at 5:18 PM, Sly Wren said:

Note that this time, he's not dreaming of waking kings, but of stone ones. He feels unwelcome in the crypts and in Winterfell per se. He's looking for help, he's feeling guilty over Ygritte and probably over Robb. 

I think this is guilt over "breaking" his vows and missing his family and all the conflicting emotions that brings up.

This is off topic. But I just realized how incredibly similar to Ned Jon is in this dream of his.

He is lumping, is calling to his father and brandon, feels guilty over a hurt beloved red-headed person. Could Ned have felt the same when he came back from the war?

 

Sorry I pushed the enter button much too soon.

 

[LordImp]

On 28. april 2016 at 10:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

Kingsguard

I really like your idea @Scorpion92 . I have always belived that the white walkers will eventually join the northerners with Jon as King. Jon just has to kill the one leading them now and then become their new King . 

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, shizett said:

@Sly Wren, this is amazing. I have missed the discussion on this great thread for a while, so please excuse me if some of my comments are a bit out of place. But there were some very minor things I wanted to comment on in the main post:

 Dive on in, Shiz!

3 hours ago, shizett said:

Jon has more of the North in him than his brothers, Arya looks as every bit as Stark as Jon.

Agreed--with this and the point re: Ghost's silence--a few people have pointed this out. I need to go back and edit the OP.

On Ghost's howl, I will say that's in a wolf dream with Jon skin-changing/dream-changing him. Which makes me wonder if that's when Ghost can howl. 

@Voice has suggested that Ghost's howl might not be audible outside of the dream realm, which would be cool.

But, one way or another, Ghost has not been completely silent.

3 hours ago, shizett said:

I disagree with this. Lady does not sing, Sansa does. She doesn't sing as a wolf, she sings (and associated with) human songs, not wolf songs.

True--but in Jon's memory, Sansa and Lady are together, with Sansa singing. That was the only image I could find re: Sansa and her wolf and sound. Otherwise, the books have nothing--as far as I could find.

3 hours ago, shizett said:

Arya also starts having wolf dream and hear wolf howls when she is in the south. She finds them friendly, but not yet understanding them as songs. SO, I really am curious if the geography has something to do with this!

Very interesting. Robb seems to get that the wolves are singing for Bran and that Bran needs to hear it. But even Bran says he feels like he should understand but can't yet. The Stark kids all seem on the verge of understanding--until they actually skin change their wolves. 

So, yes--will be very interesting to see what happens when Arya gets back to Nymeria--especially if they get back to the North together.

3 hours ago, shizett said:

I just wanted to add here that if (IF) Jon is a Dayne, the fact that he feels "he does not belong" to WF crypts might be because he belongs to the land of living and that is the underworld. (I am not good with this kind of symbolism, so please bear with me):

All Stark children have their journeys to the underworld (other than Rickon the kid, and Robb the dead): Bran with the cave and BR, Sansa in her snow chapter, and Arya in Hob&W. Bran and Rickon wanted to go to the Crypts after a dream (willingly) and stayed there for a while. They all have been willing, Jon is the only one that isn't. 

The lands beyond the wall seem to be the underworld in our story, but even traveling beyond the wall, Jon never actually sees the army of the dead. While the NW and Bran's group deals with WW and Wights, Jon has many many moments of Dawn and beautiful frost. He falls in love and finds warmth. This could also be why Ghost is silent. If he really is Jon's Stark heritage, Jon has yet to fully accept this part of himself.

But on the other hand, can Ghost be Jon's Dawn? He is pale. Also, since Jon sees a direwolf at the end of one of his dreams, I always thought maybe the reason he feels he does no belong to the crypts is lack of Ghost at his heel. It could work both ways: Ghost as the Stark in Jon, or Ghost as the Dawn that wakes the sleepers!

So basically I completely agree with your conclusion, just had some minor thoughts.

Okay--this is very interesting. I had not thought of the Daynes as being "of the living" vs. the Starks as being "of the dead" 

Might work as well if the Daynes are of the dawn and the Starks are of the liminal space--the hour of the wolf, after all, comes right before the dawn in Martinlandia.

And yes--they all have gone to some kind of underworld Hiding identity and life under stones--literally or symbolically. 

And I like the idea that Jon needs to fully accept Ghost, or at least finally skin change him, to let Ghost sing. That might fit with the thoughts I mentioned up-post re: Ghost's singing when Jon wolf-dreams, but not otherwise.

As for Ghost being Jon's Dawn--there are a few parts int eh novels where Ghost is associated with dawn.

But Jon is both a wolf and a sword in a lot of ways. And there's that moment in the crypts where Osha lights the torches for Bran and Rickon with a "long pale flame" that looks like a girl on her toes. 

Throw in Jon's lifelong wish to earn his father's sword and his dream of himself at the Battle for the Wall with a different sword in his hand, not to mention his "vision" of the Sword of the Morning--I really think Jon's getting the white sword to match his weirwood direwolf.

3 hours ago, shizett said:

Exactly, it is mostly Dany that says and believes in those words. And we should never look to Dany for wisdom.

HA! Words to live by!

3 hours ago, shizett said:

Osha tells Bran that Winds is how the gods talk. So, if winds are god's words and words are winds, does that make each word an oath?

We also have Sweet Robin that is hearing songs in the castle that is famous for its winds (and he is from the blood of Flacons). So, at least in Westeroes, "words are winds" is an evidence of taking them very seriously, not the other way around.

YUP! And this might tie in to others' speculation that Sweetrobin is a potential greenseer or skin changer. Which could be a very interesting point later on re: the Vale's role in the impending battle for the dawn.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Yes. I am thinking that there once was a natural relationship between rider and dragon until someone simply mentally raped them with horns. So yeah the dragon gets a bond with there enslaver.

It works--especially with the Varamyr prologue and his description of how he has enslaved some of his animals, as opposed to his wolves.

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

I think the Targaryens rediscovered the skinchanging tradition to dragons. And Danys relationship with Drogon is because Dany is his " mother " Dany was the first one he saw and she has always been together with him so i think their bond is due to that they builded up a relationship , she is his " mother " .

Then we also have the theories that Drogon is possessed by Drogo and thats the reason Dany has a special bond with Drogon. This idea actually makes sense if you give It a second tought. 

Yes--I'm partial to the notion that Drogo's soul ended up in Drogon. I can in no way prove it. But the idea that blood magic carries some of the memory of the dead/sacrificed. . . . the way the weirwoods store memory might tie in with that. Same with Bran's tasting blood of the sacrifice when he first enters the weirwoods. 

But I agree that Dany's bond is peculiar. I'd add that it's not just the "mother" but also the "blood sacrificer" that built that bond. 

Which may not be as violent to the animal as Varamyr's forced hold on his animals is. Or how the dragon horns might be. 

But it blood magic is still abomination in my book. 

[shizett]

20 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Dive on in, Shiz!

21 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

True--but in Jon's memory, Sansa and Lady are together, with Sansa singing. That was the only image I could find re: Sansa and her wolf and sound. Otherwise, the books have nothing--as far as I could find.

I think I forgot to edit this part of my answer. What I meant to say was that Sana starts the story by being associated with bards and human song. After the snowflake communion, she starts to hear some songs. Sweet Robin is not the only one who can hear the singing. I don't have access to the books to check, but I think Sansa hears what SR hears as well. It might be her first step to hearing the nature songs.

24 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--this is very interesting. I had not thought of the Daynes as being "of the living" vs. the Starks as being "of the dead" 

Might work as well if the Daynes are of the dawn and the Starks are of the liminal space--the hour of the wolf, after all, comes right before the dawn in Martinlandia.

And yes--they all have gone to some kind of underworld Hiding identity and life under stones--literally or symbolically. 

And I like the idea that Jon needs to fully accept Ghost, or at least finally skin change him, to let Ghost sing. That might fit with the thoughts I mentioned up-post re: Ghost's singing when Jon wolf-dreams, but not otherwise.

As for Ghost being Jon's Dawn--there are a few parts int eh novels where Ghost is associated with dawn.

But Jon is both a wolf and a sword in a lot of ways. And there's that moment in the crypts where Osha lights the torches for Bran and Rickon with a "long pale flame" that looks like a girl on her toes. 

Throw in Jon's lifelong wish to earn his father's sword and his dream of himself at the Battle for the Wall with a different sword in his hand, not to mention his "vision" of the Sword of the Morning--I really think Jon's getting the white sword to match his weirwood direwolf.

hmm, very interesting.

I was thinking more in the line of Jon being a mirror to Dany: Dorgon as Dany's lightbringer, Ghost as Jon's Dawn.

But yeah, not everything needs to be mirrors

26 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And this might tie in to others' speculation that Sweetrobin is a potential greenseer or skin changer. Which could be a very interesting point later on re: the Vale's role in the impending battle for the dawn.

Also, might be Sansa getting some magical reinforcement. Her arc's been magic free for far too long.