A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers

[Sly Wren]

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

Hey @Sly Wren, I jumpe dingo this convo because someone tagged me (I think it was you), but I've only just now gone back and read the OP.  Great job, once again!  A lot of people have speculated in one form or another about the Stark dead rising in connection with Jon - it's such a prominent feature of his dreams. But I really love how you've tied this to Ghost and his silent howl. Of course, that's a parallel to the weirwoods, who scream silently and share Ghost's coloring. Weirwoods also play that role of bridge between living and dead, of course, so that all fits pretty well. 

 And YUP! Ghost is the weirwood wolf!

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

True enough, all of those things do exist - shields and torches and swords and swords which are torches, etc - but they are also metaphors for the men themselves, as you aptly point out. The horn should be no different... never thought about it like that, but you're right. And obviously if anyone is going to wake sleepers it will be Jon, or perhaps Jon and Bran.

I could see its being Bran. But with the wolves' howling using the phrase about waking sleepers and Jon's being in the crypts--that's how I currently do the math even though there is no actual math to do.

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

There's cool foreshadowing about the dead rising all the way back in a well-known passage from Book One, as Ned and Robert first descend to the crypts, appropriately enough:

Excellent catch! Goes along with some of the stuff @Voice has been saying elsewhere re: mists and ghosts.

 

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. (Winterfell's dead are buried in the lichyard, which is covered in snow. Ne'ds people are indeed under the snow, waiting to come out like a cold breath from the crypts. These kings are a rare sight, they only come in the direst of circumstances, lol)

Amen! I'm thinking the original Kings of Winter were not political schemers (good thing, too, since Jon SUCKS at scheming) but defenders. Organizing protectors. They only emerge when needed. And thus, the Starks in Winterfell only rise when needed by their protector king.

And @LmL--I'm out of time. I will be back in a few hours to keep digging into your ideas! My apologies again for the delay.

[Puppy Stark]

Fun theory. Though I've been thinking lately, GRRM doesn't seem as clever as most theories put out seems to think of him. Sometimes a horn is just a horn.

[Scorpion92]

13 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 And YUP! Ghost is the weirwood wolf!

I could see its being Bran. But with the wolves' howling using the phrase about waking sleepers and Jon's being in the crypts--that's how I currently do the math even though there is no actual math to do.

Excellent catch! Goes along with some of the stuff @Voice has been saying elsewhere re: mists and ghosts.

 

Amen! I'm thinking the original Kings of Winter were not political schemers (good thing, too, since Jon SUCKS at scheming) but defenders. Organizing protectors. They only emerge when needed. And thus, the Starks in Winterfell only rise when needed by their protector king.

And @LmL--I'm out of time. I will be back in a few hours to keep digging into your ideas! My apologies again for the delay.

Do you guys think that the ghosts of dead Starks, once awoken, will possess the White Walkers and then maybe swear allegiance to new King of Winter, Jon Stark?

I mean, there are so many references of "frozen hell reserved for Starks" in afterlife. Posessing White Walkers would be this "frozen hell" in some sense, if you know what I mean?

If Bran is indeed Three Eyed Raven of this story, then I see plenty of evidence that he will take over control of undead wights with his skinchanging ability (especially if lots and lots of men die and their blood might fuel his powers even more), just like Varamyr Sixskins was simultaneously controlling six animals at once. Like a hive-mind.

And White Walkers are described as "white shadows". The same way Ghost and Barristan are described by Jon and Dany's sides - their companions and bodyguards. So maybe Stark-possessed-Others are going to become Jon's Kingsguard in his battle against Dany and her dragons? (the Usurper and his followers in icy armor in House of Undying vision fighting her and dragons at the Trident, and I am bettinf it will be fought on Blue Fork, J.Stargaryen had an amazing theory about this)

With Bran at his side controlling the army of the undead (there are so many textual references to Bran and Death, he is literally Angel of Death in this scenario), White Walkers as his Kingsguard, I could see how Jon can become King of Winter and "ice" of this story prior Battle of the Dawn.

[LordImp]

A crazy tought. The barrow Kings are asscoiated with death and are said to curse their enemies if they dear challenge the High King . And we know that the Starks conquered the barrow Kings.

So here comes my crazy tought . What if the barrow Kings cursed the Starks when they was conquered and thats why the Starks must remain in the crypts , it is no choice because of the curse . 

The idea dosent really make sense , but why not ? 

[shifter]

Excellent-just...excellent,love this theory

[Sly Wren]

On June 27, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Puppy Stark said:

Fun theory. Though I've been thinking lately, GRRM doesn't seem as clever as most theories put out seems to think of him. Sometimes a horn is just a horn.

HA! All fair. And very possible. But since the rest of the Night's Watch statement isn't literal (no one's actually a fire or a sword, etc.) the idea that the horn is also metaphorical seems at least plausible.

Especially given that he uses that phrasing--"wake the sleepers" so rarely. And one time is when Summer howls.

On June 27, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Do you guys think that the ghosts of dead Starks, once awoken, will possess the White Walkers and then maybe swear allegiance to new King of Winter, Jon Stark?

I could see it. But it might depend on just how autonomous the Others are. Are they controlled by the children? The weirnet? if so, switching alliance could work. But if they are entities unto themselves, possession might be harder to work.

On June 27, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Scorpion92 said:

And White Walkers are described as "white shadows". The same way Ghost and Barristan are described by Jon and Dany's sides - their companions and bodyguards. So maybe Stark-possessed-Others are going to become Jon's Kingsguard in his battle against Dany and her dragons? (the Usurper and his followers in icy armor in House of Undying vision fighting her and dragons at the Trident, and I am bettinf it will be fought on Blue Fork, J.Stargaryen had an amazing theory about this)

That would be cool.

Am also wondering if their being "shadows" is because they were supposed to be defenders and protectors--like @Black Crow's argument that the children of the forest use them to fight the First Men. Or even @Voice's argument that the trees themselves engender the Others. 

If the Others are defenders or trees and/or children, they would be a kind of "guard," no?

23 hours ago, LordImp said:

So here comes my crazy tought . What if the barrow Kings cursed the Starks when they was conquered and thats why the Starks must remain in the crypts , it is no choice because of the curse . 

Not crazy to me, at least. Seems possible. And something is up with the barrow kings--Lady Dustin's venom at Ned can't just be world building. Martin seems to be trying to tell us something. 

But I do like the idea of a curse--Ned talks of the frozen hell reserved for Starks. So, if the Starks did something against the children or other magical people (the Barrow Kings could have been magical). Or if the guy in the World Book is right and the Others are a tribe of First Men: if those First Men were magically transformed Starks or something, I could see the Starks carrying a "curse" for what their ancestors did. Not unlike Craster is said to carry a curse.

4 hours ago, shifter said:

Excellent-just...excellent,love this theory

Thanks!

[Sly Wren]

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

The obvious reading here is that the rocks (buildings) are sleeping because nobody inside them is stirring, but I think there's a double meaning. This event is occurring as the Ironborn invade Winterfell, flowing over the walls like a dark tide. You know what I think about dark tides of iron - that's the moon flood of bloody stones, bleeding stars, etc. That's when we have the howl which tries to wake dark and dead piles of man rock. Dragons waking from stone, gargoyles waking from stone - this is mythical astronomy stuff here.  The horn is an important part of the moon disaster, central in fact. It was Nissa Nissa'a cry of anguish and ecstasy which actually broke the moon according to legend, after all. It was a sound which did it in that version - but a sound which can be like a sword too. We have heard a horn that matches that description exactly:

I'm liking this idea. And the idea of sound as the warning against violent invasion--the novels make that VERY clear in various fights. 

As for waking from stone--the Stark dead in the crypts have stone statues that look awake. And Jon hears stone grinding as the dead kings stumble out of their tombs. The stone itself not necessarily awake, but living. Holding the sleeping dead. 

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

Your other example of a sound which wakes sleepers was the wail of anguish for dead Garth. Garth the Green is of course George's version of the horned lord, a figure who is sacrificed to turn the seasons. This is exactly the role the sun and moon play when they combine in the sky - when the moon wanders too close to the sun and cracks. Just as Robert, who was opened up by the devilish black boar to let loose a thousand snakes (according the Kings Landing crazy prophet, lol), represents the sacrificed sun-moon conjunction, so too does Garth, and thus his Garth avatar, Garth Greyfeather, is mourned by a howl that wakes sleepers in the "shadow tower."

The "Garth" aspect just flew over my head (though, at the moment, I most unfortunately have Wayne's World in my head--only unfortunate because it doesn't fit here). 

But yes--the mourning of extreme loss--Garth the Green and his normal seasons have been lost in this world. And need restoring. 

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

The Winterfell dead aren't the only sleepers that will wake. There are still yet more dragons to be woken from stone, I believe, and Jon may play a part in doing that.

This I can fully believe.

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

These would be icy dragons this time, instead of the fiery ones we got in the Dawn Age.

I think the icy dragons already woke up and that they are the Others. The Ice Dragon points north to the Wall, its rider has a bright blue star eye (like the Others). The cold and wind coming to the Wall get repeatedly compared to ice dragons--because Winter and the Others are coming. If the children made the others (as Heresy has been arguing since long before I got there), they made themselves dragons/weapons.

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

If the dragons pouring forth from the moon represent a fiery version of the moon meteor shower, the Others, an invasion of burning blue stars, show us an icy version of the same thing.

I agree, though--and you might throttle me for this--I've been wondering if Septon Barth in the World Book might have been right about the dragons being transformed wyverns. If the children made the Others to fight First Men and save themselves, might not Valyrians or even earlier peoples have used magics to "make" dragons--transforming wyverns?

I'll go find a bunker the second I post this. 

But then the magical rocks from a the moon--oily stone, or obsidian, or obsidian and oily stone may be one and the same--might have been used to make "dragons" and thus "dragonglass."

Might be way too cutesy. But, bottom line, for the time being: I really thing the Others are the Ice Dragons.

On May 31, 2016 at 2:58 AM, LmL said:

One last clue about Jon waking sleepers and bringing down the wall:

Well done, ser!

[YOVMO]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 11:15 AM, Sly Wren said:

Jojen is the Woody Guthrie of Westeros. 

Ridin' a train car from the wall to Dorne...a Hedge Greenseer on the road.

[Sly Wren]

15 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Ridin' a train car from the wall to Dorne...a Hedge Greenseer on the road.

So, would that make Meera into Jack Kerouac?

[YOVMO]

7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

So, would that make Meera into Jack Kerouac?

Dharma Bum Reed.

[LmL]

@Sly Wren, I agree that the Others being the "ice dragons" is a distinct possibility. What I was trying to say is that the fire dragons are parallel to the moon meteor dragons, and the Others are like an icy version of the same thing. I believe that we may be headed for anew moon disaster event, which would unleash a new Long Night and the the full-scale invasion of the Others. So, if we get celestial "ice dragon" meteors, we'll also get the invasion of burning stars known as the Others. That's really what I am getting at. We may or may not see an actual ice dragon, but for the sake of symbolism, the dragons and the Others are direct parallels. 

I don't know how the actual living dragons were created, or if they were created at all. My only strong opinion is that they existed before the Long Night and before Valyria was even a twinkle in a horny shepherd's eye, if you know what I'm saying. I'm open to all ideas. 

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

I don't know how the actual living dragons were created, or if they were created at all. My only strong opinion is that they existed before the Long Night and before Valyria was even a twinkle in a horny shepherd's eye, if you know what I'm saying. I'm open to all ideas. 

I don't remember exactly who wrote this, it might actually be you LmL, but I really liked the theory of Bloodstone Emperor - this crazy necromancer and greenseer - interbreeding firewyrns and wyverns using blood magic and all his dark arts and creating first dragons. It makes a lot of sense.

Then this technology was used again in Valyria to "discover" more dragons. No one knows how Valyria truly came to be, so probably silvee haired refugees of Empire of the Dawn migrated west and carved out their own Empire, thus "corrupting" the silver haired purple eyes magical bloodline by using sacrifice.

It might be the perfect explanation why Dany saw the previos emperors of GEotD in her House of Undying: if my strong belief of Dany being daughter of Ned and Ashara is correct, then she saw her ancestors from GEotD through her Dayne blood - "pure blue fire" people, without corruption of Bloodstone Emperor and his blood magic ways. They try to warn her to stay away from her path, as it does not bring anything good. "Remember who you are, dragons know, do you?" Her Dayne heritage might be the key for purifying the corrupted proto Valyrian race and "true fire magic" the fire that burns Jaime and Brienne's swords in his weirwood dream.

"Drink from the cup of ice (Stark), drink from the cup of fire (Dayne)" is what might bring the Dawn to the world, "a dream of spring", and "a prince that was promised" whose birth will signify all these (in my opinion, the birth of Jon and Dany's son who shall be named Eddard Stark, prince that was promised, a song of ice and fire and a balance just like his parents, but that is just my guess).

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

@Sly Wren, I agree that the Others being the "ice dragons" is a distinct possibility. What I was trying to say is that the fire dragons are parallel to the moon meteor dragons, and the Others are like an icy version of the same thing.

Amen. And s

1 hour ago, LmL said:

II don't know how the actual living dragons were created, or if they were created at all. My only strong opinion is that they existed before the Long Night and before Valyria was even a twinkle in a horny shepherd's eye, if you know what I'm saying. I'm open to all ideas. 

Agreed on their likely pre-dating Valyria and the Long Night. Especially if the Others are the ice dragons--the original dragons seem like they should exist first if that metaphor is going to hold.

My current thinking is that they came from Asshai--hardly original, but I'm often slow of brain, as you know. But since the Others and the Long Night seem to have created the Land of Always Winter, seems like the dragons and the Shadow could have created the land of always shadow.

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Amen. And s

Agreed on their likely pre-dating Valyria and the Long Night. Especially if the Others are the ice dragons--the original dragons seem like they should exist first if that metaphor is going to hold.

My current thinking is that they came from Asshai--hardly original, but I'm often slow of brain, as you know. But since the Others and the Long Night seem to have created the Land of Always Winter, seems like the dragons and the Shadow could have created the land of always shadow.

@Scorpion92, I'll address this to you as well. I don't think the Bloodstone Emperor created dragons, primarily because it seems pretty solid that the Five Forts and Battle Isle fortress both predate the Long Night, and their fused stone construction is basically a big "dragonlords were here" sign. But I do think the BSE may have altered the dragonbond, or created the sorcerors horns, or perhaps created the black dragons, which seem like they could be a different species or breed or whatever. Drogon grew the biggest and fastest and often went off by himself while the other two stuck with each other. Balerion was also the biggest dragon of his day. Could be that they are a different kind of dragon which the BSE came up. 

As for the idea that Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone E is a greenseer, yes that was my idea. 

Sly, yes I tend to think if there is such a thing as an origin point for dragons, Asshai is the place. 

[House Cambodia]

I'm loving this - sorry to bring the mummers' version into the debate, but I read something about The Battle of the Bastards that has terrified me; namely that it was a 50/50 coin toss as to whether Wun Wun or Ghost would be sacrificed. It suggests that D&D don't put much stock on Ghost, who has been woefully under-used in the show. I just hope this isn't a reflection of where GRRM is going with Ghost, but I fear it may be.

[DarkSister1001]

18 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I'm loving this - sorry to bring the mummers' version into the debate, but I read something about The Battle of the Bastards that has terrified me; namely that it was a 50/50 coin toss as to whether Wun Wun or Ghost would be sacrificed. It suggests that D&D don't put much stock on Ghost, who has been woefully under-used in the show. I just hope this isn't a reflection of where GRRM is going with Ghost, but I fear it may be.

I read something similar but it had to do with budgets.  They could either afford to have Wun Wun or Ghost, but not both.  They opted for Wun Wun since they needed him to bring down the door to WF.  Ghost would have been there just for flavor which they could not afford.  I'm sticking with that bc I don't the idea of the DWs dead.  lol

[House Cambodia]

37 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I read something similar but it had to do with budgets.  They could either afford to have Wun Wun or Ghost, but not both.  They opted for Wun Wun since they needed him to bring down the door to WF.  Ghost would have been there just for flavor which they could not afford.  I'm sticking with that bc I don't the idea of the DWs dead.  lol

Right, but my point is Ghost was only spared for budgetary reasons, not plot reasons. That's terrible.

[LordImp]

Crackpot: The original dragons was talking dragons like Smaug . With the use of magical horns the Bloodstone Emperor took away that ability and made them slaves . To be serious though i think the pre Bloodstone GEOTD emperors used skinchanging to controll dragons instead of horns , horns was most likely BE tech . I think that was your idea aswell @LmL

[Sly Wren]

On June 28, 2016 at 9:36 PM, LmL said:

@Scorpion92, I'll address this to you as well. I don't think the Bloodstone Emperor created dragons, primarily because it seems pretty solid that the Five Forts and Battle Isle fortress both predate the Long Night, and their fused stone construction is basically a big "dragonlords were here" sign. But I do think the BSE may have altered the dragonbond, or created the sorcerors horns, or perhaps created the black dragons, which seem like they could be a different species or breed or whatever. Drogon grew the biggest and fastest and often went off by himself while the other two stuck with each other. Balerion was also the biggest dragon of his day. Could be that they are a different kind of dragon which the BSE came up. 

As for the idea that Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone E is a greenseer, yes that was my idea. 

Sly, yes I tend to think if there is such a thing as an origin point for dragons, Asshai is the place. 

Agreed.

And it would help explain why they include details like the five forts in the World book.

On the dragon bond and wolfbond--I could definitely see the "dragon bond" being violated with horns. Rather like we're told Varamyr's bond with various animals is violent and horrible. And his skin changing of Thistle is abomination. Euron's horn has that same abominable horror to it--kills to get what it wants. So, the idea that this bond could have been violated long ago by other dragon riders/makers--yes. I buy that.

On the black draongs being a different species--I had not thought of that. But I wonder if it might not be more like Ghost is separate from his siblings. The albino wolf, separate and distinct and extra magical--as albinos are in many cultures. I can't prove that Martin is referencing this idea, but he does make a point of distinguishing the white wolf born with his eyes open.

So, perhaps the black dragon is a similar thing? Separate and distinct and more magical? And perhaps much more rare--like an albino. Thus having different characteristics, like Ghost is so distinct from his siblings.

[Sly Wren]

On June 28, 2016 at 10:32 PM, House Cambodia said:

I'm loving this - sorry to bring the mummers' version into the debate, but I read something about The Battle of the Bastards that has terrified me; namely that it was a 50/50 coin toss as to whether Wun Wun or Ghost would be sacrificed. It suggests that D&D don't put much stock on Ghost, who has been woefully under-used in the show. I just hope this isn't a reflection of where GRRM is going with Ghost, but I fear it may be.

 

14 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I read something similar but it had to do with budgets.  They could either afford to have Wun Wun or Ghost, but not both.  They opted for Wun Wun since they needed him to bring down the door to WF.  Ghost would have been there just for flavor which they could not afford.  I'm sticking with that bc I don't the idea of the DWs dead.  lol

 

13 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Right, but my point is Ghost was only spared for budgetary reasons, not plot reasons. That's terrible.

Yes--it is mind-numbingly terrible. But I can definitely see Martin's killing off all of the direwolves once their work is done. I HATE the idea, but I can see it.

As for how this could impact my theory--Jon does dream of a Greywind-looking direwolf in the crypts. Sansa still dreams of dead Lady. I could definitely see Ghost as being connected to Jon even after his death. And perhaps helping Jon wake the dead that way, too.

But I REALLY want those wolves to live.