A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers

[Sly Wren]

12 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

I tend to agree with you there, we have this remark from Ned:

The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not.

Rusted long ago...and that is just on this level.

 

And, given that we haven't had a rash of Stark hauntings, seems like they are still in their graves. That the crypts really are the frozen hell reserved for Starks:

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Bran heard fingers fumbling at leather, followed by the sound of steel on flint. Then again. A spark flew, caught. Osha blew softly. A long pale flame awoke, stretching upward like a girl on her toes. Osha's face floated above it. She touched the flame with the head of a torch. Bran had to squint as the pitch began to burn, filling the world with orange glare. The light woke Rickon, who sat up yawning.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread. Clash, Bran VII

Seems like Bran has the right of it in his instinct. In his description of the light. This is the cold place Stark shades rest in. But light makes them look alive--that effect happens a few times in the books.

And a long pale flame wakes them--which, of course, makes me think of Dawn: 

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"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Game, Eddard X

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Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew. Game, Dany XI

The swords of pale fire. In Arthur's case, we know that's Dawn. In Dany's, swords wielded by ancient purple eyed people--like the Daynes: both Edric (dark blue eyes that look purple) and Ashara (violet eyes). 

And, in the Stark crypt, a pale flame awakes--and wakes the shades. At least to Bran's eyes.

So, what happens if the Sword of the Morning walks in there with a long pale flame sword? Especially a Sword of the Morning who's part Stark with his weirwood colored direwolf?

[Arry'sFleas]

good question! but this scenario assumes that Jon has been able to collect the SoM first and the world book tells us that 'only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.' 

You are opening a can of 'milkglass'...

Btw, i searched on 'milkglass'; there is very few occurrences but aside from the SoM, one of them is the appearance of the bones of the melting FrostyFruit.

 

On 16/05/2016 at 9:31 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place.

I think that since Jon appears to be dead at the end of DwD (by comparing to Varamy'r experience..the cold), and since it would make no sense for him to disappear from the story, Jon, as some sort of no-dead, will finally be able to take part in the feasting in the Great Hall, and be able, like Bran and Rickon, to talk to Ned.

 

[Scorpion92]

I want to bump this thread for a quick question: yesterday I was thinking about the whole "Hodor" reveal on the show, and it kinda leads me to believe that book Hodor will be holding the doors of Winterfell crypts unlike in the show while wights outside try to get in and Jon, Bran, Melisandre and other survivors try to wake ancestor Stark spirits when everything around seems lost and defeated.

Do you guys possibly think that maybe these ghosts of Stark ancestors might get unleashed from their graves and take over the bodies of the Others and bend the knee to their descendant, new King of Winter, Jon Stark? Because in the text there are many textual foreshadowings for Walkers becoming this sort of Kingsguard. Walkers are described as white shadows. Ghost, companion and bodyguard of Jon, and Barristan, companion and bodyguard to Dany, are also described as white shadows at their masters' side, which kinda pushes me to this train of thought. And it makes perfect sense for Walkers to bend the knee and protect King of Winter.

It is one of the ways I could see White Walkers get defeated at Winterfell (the name of the castle implies that they will lose there). If White Walkers are possessed by Stark ghosts and become Jon's Kingsguard, Bran is controlling wight army with his mind (I am betting my house that Bran will grow powerful enough to control simultaneously simple minded zombies, like hive-mind which George LOVES in his stories), and Jon is proclaimed King of Winter, then I can see why Starks are "ice" of this story. Of course, Jon's Targaryen heritage will help him to defeat "other" side of his family - Dany and her dragons. That will be his ace in the hole.

[Sly Wren]

On May 23, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

good question! but this scenario assumes that Jon has been able to collect the SoM first and the world book tells us that 'only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.' 

You are opening a can of 'milkglass'...

HA! I opened that can a few months ago. But I agree that how the sword might get to Jon is a problem. @LmL is fond of the theory that Darkstar will steal the sword. And his argument is strong, given what we've seen of Darkstar.

Though I'm holding out for Allyria Dayne to make an appearance and get the sword out of Starfall before Darkstar gets it. Either method could potentially get the sword north. And, depending on what they Daynes know (since they clearly know something about Jon), the sword could get to him.

On May 23, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

Btw, i searched on 'milkglass'; there is very few occurrences but aside from the SoM, one of them is the appearance of the bones of the melting FrostyFruit.

YUP! The tie between the milkglass sword and the milkglass bones has to mean something. And the tie between the sword and the Wall means something. So, that moment between the long pale flame and the Winterfell crypts. . . I think that means something, too.

On May 23, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

I think that since Jon appears to be dead at the end of DwD (by comparing to Varamy'r experience..the cold), and since it would make no sense for him to disappear from the story, Jon, as some sort of no-dead, will finally be able to take part in the feasting in the Great Hall, and be able, like Bran and Rickon, to talk to Ned.

I really think Jon becomes the liminal person who can deal with both the living and the dead. Take part in the feast and commune in the crypts. But since Jon is very likely to rise from the dead, I'm thinking he will be able to speak with Ned and other dead Starks while awake, whereas Rickon and Bran only saw Ned in a dream.

The liminal person fits the idea in the OP of the Song of Amergin--uniting the land and people as one, invoking that power. I think.

[Sly Wren]

14 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I want to bump this thread for a quick question: yesterday I was thinking about the whole "Hodor" reveal on the show, and it kinda leads me to believe that book Hodor will be holding the doors of Winterfell crypts unlike in the show while wights outside try to get in and Jon, Bran, Melisandre and other survivors try to wake ancestor Stark spirits when everything around seems lost and defeated.

Okay, I don't want to get too close to the edge and potentially incur mod wrath on our conversation, so I'm going to respond to the above as though it's a hypothetical--apologies if that's annoying.

 

The idea that the Others and wights have wanted Winterfell has been around on Heresy for a while. So I could definitely see a scenario like this.

14 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Do you guys possibly think that maybe these ghosts of Stark ancestors might get unleashed from their graves and take over the bodies of the Others and bend the knee to their descendant, new King of Winter, Jon Stark? Because in the text there are many textual foreshadowings for Walkers becoming this sort of Kingsguard. Walkers are described as white shadows. Ghost, companion and bodyguard of Jon, and Barristan, companion and bodyguard to Dany, are also described as white shadows at their masters' side, which kinda pushes me to this train of thought. And it makes perfect sense for Walkers to bend the knee and protect King of Winter.

AAAHHH! I like this idea. I've played with the idea that Symeon Star-Eyes might be a fighter with knightly intent who took over a wight or Other. The idea that they could be overtaken en masse like this is very interesting.

I agree with the imagery of Walkers as Kingsguard, but I'd been reading that as their being the Kingsguard of the Night's King. But the idea that the Shades could take out the shadow and turn the to Jon. . . this has interesting possibilities.

14 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

It is one of the ways I could see White Walkers get defeated at Winterfell (the name of the castle implies that they will lose there). If White Walkers are possessed by Stark ghosts and become Jon's Kingsguard, Bran is controlling wight army with his mind (I am betting my house that Bran will grow powerful enough to control simultaneously simple minded zombies, like hive-mind which George LOVES in his stories), and Jon is proclaimed King of Winter, then I can see why Starks are "ice" of this story.

I could see this, too. But I think the key is not just the "ice" but the "day"--bringing about dawn and ending a long night. If Bran gets this powerful--which I agree he is likely to do--he and Jon need to then turn the tide, bring the day, and send the dead back to their graves in the earth where they can possibly go into the weirnet and live on naturally there. 

14 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Of course, Jon's Targaryen heritage will help him to defeat "other" side of his family - Dany and her dragons. That will be his ace in the hole.

How so? If Jon is part Targaryen, how do you see the dragons playing a role in bringing back the dawn? Or are you thinking the role would be different?

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

How so? If Jon is part Targaryen, how do you see the dragons playing a role in bringing back the dawn? Or are you thinking the role would be different?

Well, if Jon does indeed become King of Winter and has White Walkers and undead army on his side, there is only one place he can go further - south. Which will be decimated and invaded by Dany and dragons. THIS will be the Battle for the Dawn which will be fought on Blue Fork of the Trident (Targaryens became dynasty on Red Fork after Torrhen Stark knelt, Baratheons became dynasty after Robert slew Rhaegar on Green Fork, Blue is the color of ice, new dynasty). Whoever emerges victorious will finally bring the dream of spring to the realm (and that will be Jon).

Now, I never liked the idea that Jon's Targaryen blood will allow him to become dragonrider and join Dany and Tyrion and defeat Others and then they will shit rainbow and sing kumbala together. I always thought that Drogon and Jon has a lot of similarities, even description wise (just like Viserion with Jaime and Rhaegal with Cersei), and the dragon bears the name of Dany's "sun and stars".

The way I see it, the story will come full circle in a sense where magic will be eradicated from Planetos. I see White Walkers and dragons dying by the end of the series, and surviving humans will build a new and better world. That is why I believe there will be three dragon slayers in this story at this Battle - Davos (foreshadowed in TWOIAF by the story of Davos the Dragonslayer, he will kill Viserion by scorpion arrow from the ship on Blue Fork of Trident, plus there is a foreshadowing of a white dragon during dance of the dragons flying too close to the sea (SEAworth) and dying, forgot the name of the dragon), Sam (he is Sam the Slayer, he already slew White Walker, he is just destined to slay a dragon, and that dragon will be Rhaegal, because Tarly sigil includes a red archer on green background - in my opinion, an archer covered in blood from head to toe, because he just plunged a certain Valyrian sword called Heartsbane into the heart of a green dragon), and Jon (I used to think that Jon will skinchange and mount Drogon, therefore proving his Targaryen heritage to everyone, but now I think he will kill Dany's favorite, baddest and biggest dragon, and his Targaryen blood might actually help him with that; if Dany sets Jon on fire and he will be untouched at that moment like Dany was during Drogo's funeral, I am not sure circumstances for that yet, it will be her third and last fire to light - "fire to love", finally finding someone who was destined to her; Jon, on the other hand, will skinchange into Drogon and cause his death, ridding the world of Dany's most dangerous nuclear weapon and proving HE is "true dragon" of this series. Imagine southerners and "fire" side witnessing this event of Jon slaying Drogon - their knees will bend on their own).

So yeah, I do not see either dragons or Walkers surviving this series, magic in general, except Bran and his greensight on Isle of Faces, which will be next to the new royal castle (resembling now destroyed Winterfell in design) and new capital built on Harrenhal grounds - "seat of kings", according to Tywin Lannister.

 

 

[LmL]

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

HA! I opened that can a few months ago. But I agree that how the sword might get to Jon is a problem. @LmL is fond of the theory that Darkstar will steal the sword. And his argument is strong, given what we've seen of Darkstar.

Though I'm holding out for Allyria Dayne to make an appearance and get the sword out of Starfall before Darkstar gets it. Either method could potentially get the sword north. And, depending on what they Daynes know (since they clearly know something about Jon), the sword could get to him.

Hey Sly! My idea is that Darkstar will steal it, but only for the purpose of getting into the hands of someone more important, who could well be John. Dany and Jon both have a bit of Dayne blood via Egg's mother, who was a Dayne. Because of Targaryen incest, Dany is technically 25% Targ, 25% Dayne, and 50% Blackwood (or 25 Blackwood and 25 whomever was Betha Blackwood's non-Blackwood parent). I am not sure if George is thinking about making anything of either Jon or Dany's Blackwood and Dayne blood, but both houses are magically significant, so it seems possible. Anyway the point is D-bag-star would only be a method of getting the sword to a main character. Before the 5 year gap, I suspect George was going to use an older Edric Dayne to get the sword into the action, with Edric's fate likely being to die and pass the sword on. 

It's actually the fact that George seems to have introduced Darkstar in lieu of having an older Edric Dayne after the 5 year gap disappeared that clues me in. How you can you replace a noble boy like Edric with a D-bag-star like Gerold? The answer is that the role might always have been "Dayne that gets Dawn out of Starfall and into the fight before dying and passing the sword on." If this is the case, either character will do, despite them being kind of like night and day. 

Damn right that pun was intended. 

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! The tie between the milkglass sword and the milkglass bones has to mean something. And the tie between the sword and the Wall means something. So, that moment between the long pale flame and the Winterfell crypts. . . I think that means something, too.

I really think Jon becomes the liminal person who can deal with both the living and the dead. Take part in the feast and commune in the crypts. But since Jon is very likely to rise from the dead, I'm thinking he will be able to speak with Ned and other dead Starks while awake, whereas Rickon and Bran only saw Ned in a dream.

Very interesting idea, I haven't heard that before. I agree in general; he's going to be the best version of a half dead or undead person we've seen yet. I really think the key to making a good zombie is to use a skinchanger or greenseer, so that their animal or tree can be used as soul jar. That way when the spirit is put back in the reanimated corpse, it's an intact spirit, unlike the shade-like existence of Beric and Stoneheart. 

I'm pretty damn sure that Coldhands is one of these: a resurrected skinchanger or greenseer. I think he's probably been alive for like 8,000 years, which is pretty depressing. 

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The liminal person fits the idea in the OP of the Song of Amergin--uniting the land and people as one, invoking that power. I think.

I am put in mind of psychopomp figures like Jesus, Osiris, and Mithras, who aid the dying in being reborn. I referenced this when I talked about three-headed Trios. The first head of Trios consumes the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third head. Arya doesn't know what the their head does. Well, the third head represents the in-between Bardo state, the luminal realm where the dying await rebirth. Jon becoming the bridge between life and death is one million percent consistent with his status as a Mithras figure. Mithras was reborn when the white bill was slain; Gerold Hightower the White Bull was slain at Jon's birth (and I suspect Ghost will be the white bull when Jon is ressurected, although Ghosts's spirit will have merged with Jons and they will enter Jons body together). 

Great comment and I think you're absolutely thinking about Jon the right way. 

[LmL]

@scorpian98, if Davos Dragonslher from TWOIAF turns out to be foreshadowing, and Davos really slays a dragon, I will remember that you said this.

[Arry'sFleas]

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I really think Jon becomes the liminal person who can deal with both the living and the dead

yes, it makes him quite unique. Does that mean he becomes immortal?

shades of Leto in the Dune saga?

 

1 hour ago, LmL said:

I'm pretty damn sure that Coldhands is one of these: a resurrected skinchanger or greenseer. I think he's probably been alive for like 8,000 years, which is pretty depressing.

but he does have black hands, so his 'resurrection' must have been delayed somewhat.

Your idea implies that resurrection has been around in the North for just about ever?

I think that the White Mist did not quite finish the job and he is skinchanged by BR.

 

1 hour ago, LmL said:

the key to making a good zombie

i love the way you phrased that!

 

[Arry'sFleas]

11 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

foreshadowed in TWOIAF by the story of Davos the Dragonslayer

I could not find this story but this Davos belongs to an interesting quartet. Here is the WB mention:

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

 

Serwyn killed a dragon, Davos must have too.

Roland of the Horn...unless the Horn is a geo location, it does remind of the much talked about Horn of Winter.

The Knight Without Armor.. who needs an armour if they are already dead?

 

 

 

 

[Sly Wren]

On May 26, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Well, if Jon does indeed become King of Winter and has White Walkers and undead army on his side, there is only one place he can go further - south. Which will be decimated and invaded by Dany and dragons. THIS will be the Battle for the Dawn which will be fought on Blue Fork of the Trident (Targaryens became dynasty on Red Fork after Torrhen Stark knelt, Baratheons became dynasty after Robert slew Rhaegar on Green Fork, Blue is the color of ice, new dynasty). Whoever emerges victorious will finally bring the dream of spring to the realm (and that will be Jon).

Maybe--but I'm coming more and more to the thought that Dany and Jon will fight different fronts. Dany will fight, probably on the Trident, for her throne. And, given that Dany saw herself in Rhaegar's armor at the end of Game, I'm thinking she won't win. While Jon and Bran and maybe Sansa and hopefully Arya will fight the Battle for the Dawn at Winterfell. Where Winter will again fall. 

A song of ice an fire--when ice and fire both descended on Westeros at once. Two conquerors repelled. 

Maybe they will fight, but I'm struggling to see it. I think they will each repeat the battles of the past--with some variations, of course. 

But a replay of the defeat of the Starks, with the Starks prevailing instead of kneeling, that could be really interesting to see.

On May 26, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Now, I never liked the idea that Jon's Targaryen blood will allow him to become dragonrider and join Dany and Tyrion and defeat Others and then they will shit rainbow and sing kumbala together.

Amen.

On May 26, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Scorpion92 said:

That is why I believe there will be three dragon slayers in this story at this Battle - Davos (foreshadowed in TWOIAF by the story of Davos the Dragonslayer, he will kill Viserion by scorpion arrow from the ship on Blue Fork of Trident, plus there is a foreshadowing of a white dragon during dance of the dragons flying too close to the sea (SEAworth) and dying, forgot the name of the dragon), Sam (he is Sam the Slayer, he already slew White Walker, he is just destined to slay a dragon, and that dragon will be Rhaegal, because Tarly sigil includes a red archer on green background - in my opinion, an archer covered in blood from head to toe, because he just plunged a certain Valyrian sword called Heartsbane into the heart of a green dragon), and Jon (I used to think that Jon will skinchange and mount Drogon, therefore proving his Targaryen heritage to everyone, but now I think he will kill Dany's favorite, baddest and biggest dragon, and his Targaryen blood might actually help him with that;

Interesting! I'd been seeing Jaime and/or Brienne as dragons layers because of Oathkeeper--Valyrian steel against Valyrian dragons. Plus, Jaime killed Aerys who tried to be a dragon. And they are both in the Riverlands. Plus, the story of Lightbringer talks about defeating a monster that boils and burst into flame--sounds potentially dragon-y.

But I like the idea of Davos' doing it. Same with Sam. Jon--as I said above, I see him staying north, but if he killed Drogon, too--that would be interesting to read.

On May 26, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Scorpion92 said:

So yeah, I do not see either dragons or Walkers surviving this series, magic in general, except Bran and his greensight on Isle of Faces, which will be next to the new royal castle (resembling now destroyed Winterfell in design) and new capital built on Harrenhal grounds - "seat of kings", according to Tywin Lannister.

Agreed on the magic. But I think Winterfell is likely to survive. It may not be needed if they can REALLY make Winter fall this time, repel the undead with the Stark undead and all of that. But if they do, Winterfell would be closer to the middle than Harrenhal if the Wall falls and the north and far north are back to being green lands again.

I could see a unified kingdom, but I'm wondering if that might not be too much for the ending. More like everyone just starts cleaning up their own regions. So much of the power structure is likely to be destroyed that finding a unifying king might be low on the them pole of priorities. 

[LmL]

I would just like to go on record as predicting that if there is one sword which can kill dragons by some magical propert, that sword is Dawn, the hypothetical "original Ice." 

I don't see Valyrian steel having anti-dragon power. Dragon power went into making them. It makes sense that V steel might kill Others, and I think the opposite equivalent would be icy swords killing dragons.

I've also wondered if the true value of Dawn might be as the ultimate glass candle. 

[Sly Wren]

17 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey Sly! My idea is that Darkstar will steal it, but only for the purpose of getting into the hands of someone more important, who could well be John.

Yup! And I can definitely see that!

17 hours ago, LmL said:

Before the 5 year gap, I suspect George was going to use an older Edric Dayne to get the sword into the action, with Edric's fate likely being to die and pass the sword on. 

Possible--though I really want that kid to make it for some reason. He's been through enough. You know I go round and round with the grail/Excalibur/Arthurian imagery on the Daynes after @Lady Barbrey brought all of that up. So I keep thinking Allyria might play a role. But, one way or another, I agree that sword needs to get into the hands of someone important to the fight.

17 hours ago, LmL said:

The answer is that the role might always have been "Dayne that gets Dawn out of Starfall and into the fight before dying and passing the sword on." If this is the case, either character will do, despite them being kind of like night and day. 

Damn right that pun was intended. 

 Excellent punning! And yes--the Day sword needs to get into the fight to end the night.

17 hours ago, LmL said:

Very interesting idea, I haven't heard that before. I agree in general; he's going to be the best version of a half dead or undead person we've seen yet. I really think the key to making a good zombie is to use a skinchanger or greenseer, so that their animal or tree can be used as soul jar. That way when the spirit is put back in the reanimated corpse, it's an intact spirit, unlike the shade-like existence of Beric and Stoneheart. 

Yes--that might make the difference. I've been wondering lately about Beric and the Dayne like imagery around him that @Black Crow and I think you, too, (right?) have brought up before. If the Daynes are magical, ancient peoples (as they seem to be), might that be a factor in why Thoros could bring Beric back? Could Beric be part Dayne? Same with Cat and her Whent ancestry. That's probably going too far into the weeds, but f they are tied to magical peoples it might be why they could be brought back at all.

But only Starkly greenseers/skinchangers can rise "intact."

17 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm pretty damn sure that Coldhands is one of these: a resurrected skinchanger or greenseer. I think he's probably been alive for like 8,000 years, which is pretty depressing. 

It works. Or a guardian. I think it was @Voice but it might have been someone else was arguing elsewhere that Coldhands is like the green men, riding an elk, magical, caring for the tree-wizard greenseers. He just doesn't have horns. 

But if Coldhands has been waiting for 8,000 years--yes, that is intensely depressing.

17 hours ago, LmL said:

am put in mind of psychopomp figures like Jesus, Osiris, and Mithras, who aid the dying in being reborn. I referenced this when I talked about three-headed Trios. The first head of Trios consumes the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third head. Arya doesn't know what the their head does. Well, the third head represents the in-between Bardo state, the luminal realm where the dying await rebirth.

YES! Trios is an odd reference in the books, but it does tie into that liminal state. I think Dany might have a bit of it as well as the moon. But the Starks--all gray, living on that completely unique crypt, interacting with it, and those images of what happened when they blind a "long pal flame" into said crypt--the "frozen hell reserved for Starks" really might be that liminal space.

17 hours ago, LmL said:

Jon becoming the bridge between life and death is one million percent consistent with his status as a Mithras figure. Mithras was reborn when the white bill was slain; Gerold Hightower the White Bull was slain at Jon's birth (and I suspect Ghost will be the white bull when Jon is ressurected, although Ghosts's spirit will have merged with Jons and they will enter Jons body together). 

Yup! Though I'm holding out hope Ghost lives--if for no other reason than it fits my OP. And I like that wolf. All very practical and sane reasons, obviously.

17 hours ago, LmL said:

Great comment and I think you're absolutely thinking about Jon the right way. 

[Sly Wren]

16 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

yes, it makes him quite unique. Does that mean he becomes immortal?

shades of Leto in the Dune saga?

Oy. . . I hadn't thought of that. I'm hoping not. I think the Starks are meant to die and go into the weirnet and the earth and all that. A type of immortality, but not immortal in just the one body, 

I think one of the key ways they will hopefully finally end the Winterizing of Westeros and the Others and the Long Night once for all will be restoring normal life cycles. That should also, hopefully, re-greenify the north and the far north. 

But if they are going back to normal life cycles, Jon's been immortal would not fit. He might become the next "man who knew no fear" like the Night's King. Which did not go well the first time.

[DarkSister1001]

18 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey Sly! My idea is that Darkstar will steal it, but only for the purpose of getting into the hands of someone more important, who could well be John.

Ned returns it to Starfall.  Ashara takes it with her when she "jumps" into House Reed.  Howland will give it to Jon. 

I also like the idea that Darkstar gets it.  But I think Arya would get it from him sly as a fox and bring it to Jon.  She didn't meet Edric Dayne for nuttin!

[Scorpion92]

18 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

*excellent counter points*

Well, Sly Wren, do not have much time to comment, you made great counter argument, but basically my stance on the whole Starks fighting Dany in the Battle of the Dawn comes down to the EXACT vision you mentioned: Dany seeing herself on top of the dragon dressed in Rhaegar's armor. But one thing I did not see you mention - she was fighting the USURPER in icy armor. If Jon indeed becomes King of Winter and marches south to take Iron Throne like I suggested, he will BECOME that Usurper in her eyes, after all. Starks do not have any known claim to Iron Throne, so I definitely will see how she might view him as a Usurper.

And I guess, we are apart on this subject, but symbolically, if you truly want to create one unified and more centralized kingdom, you need to get rid of all the great seats of great houses that symbolize Seven Kingdoms. I fully expect Winterfell, Pyke, Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Highgarden, Eyrie, Sunspear, Riverrun and especially King's Landing to be destroyed by the end of the series.

Also, with all this discussion about House Dayne and sword Dawn, according to recent article in EW, George Martin revealed three "WTF" moments in the series to TV producers: Shireen's sacrifice, Hodor dilemma, and one event that will appear at the very end of the books.

Now, this might sound crazy, and I am still working on this theory, gathering all textual backing, etc, but hear me out.

I think the last "WTF" moment of the story will be the TRUE heritage of Daenerys. In my opinion, she is BASTARD daughter of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne. Call me coockoo, but I am more and more convinced with this, especially after Barristan's comparison of how Dany and Ashara's eyes are so similar. The whole "lemongate" theory, the mention of Ashara giving a birth to a stillborn daughter, mention of a Stark dishonoring her at Harrenhal tourney, etc. And most importantly, Ashara's body was never found, so she might have left to seek out Oberyn Martell, Elia's brother, to help her in the plot, which I think is the main reason for Oberyn traveling to Braavos and signing that pact with Targaryens.

And it puts in place EVERYTHING in my opinion regarding "three-headed" dragon prophecy of this story (three dragons of this story - Jon/Drogon, Jaime/Viserion and Cersei/Rhaegal, I am a big believer in the twins being Mad King's children). It will basically explain the whole parallel George was trying to show us with Jon and Dany and their journey and why there are so many similarities. Basically, they were born to live the life of the other. Think about it: Targaryen trueborn who is raised as Stark bastard becomes the "ice" of this story, while Stark bastard is raised as Targaryen trueborn and becomes "fire" of this story. Jeez, I cannot wait Winds of Winter for more textual evidence, that will be the first thing I will do. 

Remember, Dany is MOTHER of dragons and Daynes are presumed to be descendants of Great Empire of the Dawn, where dragons were originally created, then you can see WHY it all makes sense. Add the visions of Empire of the Dawn rulers she saw in the House of Undying, and you might see why there are so much parallels between Dany and Daynes.

So if Dany is Stark bastard, it will tie up nicely with LmL's theories of Lightbringer. Jon, "the dragon", "the solar" figure, will impregnate "ice moon" Dany to create a Lightbringer - "prince that was promised" who will be named Eddard Stark. 

But the most fun part would be that both Jon and Dany are "ice" and "fire" of this series (and cousins), although "fire" in each is quite different. Like LmL was discussing in his threads, one is pale and pure fire (Dayne) and another red and black and corrupted one (Targaryen). Lots and lots of possibilities. LmL, you probably will find better metaphorical references!

Regarding Edric Dayne, last time we have heard, Anguy and some part of BwB left and started their own branch. And you know where they are going to operate? Kingswood, that is right, the exact place where Arthur Dayne ended Kingswood Brotherhood by winning over smallfolk to his side. This time around, his nephew will become the leader of another brotherhood by winning over smallfolk around Kingswood. And since Darkstar is Sword of the Evening of this story, I can see him being dispatched by fAegon to deal with these outlaws, and unlike Arthur, Darkstar will be very ruthless with this Brotherhood and kill Edric with Dawn, gaining very little popularity for himself (flip coin to Arthur and his actions) and fAegon's regime in Stormlands. Perfect time, for example, for Edric Storm to come back home as legitimized Baratheon by Dany's favor and win her the support of people of Stormlands.

[LmL]

47 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Ned returns it to Starfall.  Ashara takes it with her when she "jumps" into House Reed.  Howland will give it to Jon. 

I also like the idea that Darkstar gets it.  But I think Arya would get it from him sly as a fox and bring it to Jon.  She didn't meet Edric Dayne for nuttin!

George has said Dawn is in Starfall. So Howland cannot have it. 

[DarkSister1001]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

George has said Dawn is in Starfall. So Howland cannot have it. 

Well shit.  Option 2 then!  I still think it'll have something to do with Arya bc of her milk brother conversation with Edric. 

[LmL]

3 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Well shit.  Option 2 then!  I still think it'll have something to do with Arya bc of her milk brother conversation with Edric. 

Yeah I can see that for sure. What think will happen is this: Darkstar claims the sword, passes himself of as a fake SOTM. He will offer his services to Dany as a KG, and thus will become a full parody of Arthur Dayne. That's maybe a terrific time for Arya to kill him, sure, why not. I'm not really sure what George might be thinking about doing with Edric, but Arya is one of the only people he's connected with via those scenes you mentioned. 

[LmL]

@Sly Wren, yes, it was my idea that Coldhands is an ex-Green Man, and yes, primarily due to his elk imagery and my theory about resurrected greenseers. To my knowledge, I haven't seen anyone else propose this, so I believe I can claim originality here. But who knows, someone probably thought of it sometime. I however have a whole collection of symbolic evidence to support this idea; hopefully I'll get around to writing it soon. It's hrs to decide which essay to write next; I have many in drafts. 

Have you had time to check out The Mountain and the Viper or Tyrion Targaryen, my last 2?