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13 hours ago, Rockroi said:

(1)Ned’s Death Would Have Been Worse:

Now… IMAGINE… how you felt when you read/saw Jon Snow dying.  And how UTTERLY PREDICTABLE IT WAS THAT HE WOULD COME BACK!  And how void of emotion it was; lame; silly; … HOW UTTERLY PEDESTRIAN IT WAS!  How it was almost something (GASP) Network TV would do! 

(2)So Now It Ends: 

Because the ToJ was a scene that GRRM wrote; not the show runners.  The Show runners are GREAT at creating and recreating stuff that GRRM already created.  They do a great job at putting on screen what he already put on paper.  The show –runners suck-out-loud at doing anything on their own that requires them having to create or interpret.  They are bad at it. 

Let me start by stating that I agree that there are several plot holes in the show, many scenes are not necesarry and other (possible awesome) scenes are left out. However, I understand some of these things, but I'll get back to that part later.

I picked out two parts because I feel like you didn't look at those parts objectively.

(1) 

You do realise that Jon will also come back / won't be dead in the books right. GRRM did the same, and GRRM also did the same with Catelyn, which the show didn't do. 

I agree that there was a lot less emotion in it, because they didn't recreate the scene properly, but bashing the missing of emotion because his 'resurrection' was so obvious isn't in place if you ask me. 

(2)
With this part of your post you're contradicting yourself. You pretty much hate everything the writers thought out themselves. I guess that's because you expect perfect recreated book scene's. Now they decide to take the ToJ and recreate it, and you suddenly say the writers that they are only able to copy stuff GRRM already wrote. Can't you see those statements contradict eachother? What do you expect from them? You don't want them to change the story (let's not get into the reason why they change it for now), but you also hate it when they copy GRRM's work. What should they do? Stop the show entirely?

 

I understand that many bookreaders have certain 'hate' for the show, because they 'screwed' certain parts of the story. However, those decisions were made a couple of seasons back, and they can't be introduced anymore.

Just accept that the show changes from the books, and accept plotholes. For your comments about plotholes in the show are dozens of readers that see several plotholes in the books too. Just enjoy the show, and if you don't enjoy it anymore, don't watch it. 

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Isn't there a 'Rant and Rave' thread? Or something similar? Some of these posts are longer than I am tall (I'm not very tall, but that's not the point.). Maybe pop on over there with those long, ranty posts.

And also, enough with the constant whinging and complaining. If the show is that horrible that you have to complain about every little aspect of it, do us all a favour and just stop watching it.

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14 minutes ago, RadSam said:

Isn't there a 'Rant and Rave' thread? Or something similar? Some of these posts are longer than I am tall (I'm not very tall, but that's not the point.). Maybe pop on over there with those long, ranty posts.

And also, enough with the constant whinging and complaining. If the show is that horrible that you have to complain about every little aspect of it, do us all a favour and just stop watching it.

Good point. You're allowed to create one if you want to, I think it's a good idea! 

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14 minutes ago, Attitude said:

Good point. You're allowed to create one if you want to, I think it's a good idea! 

I've seen the Rant and Rave thread for other episodes, but I don't think there's one for this episode. I was actually getting two different things mixed up. A Rant and Rave thread, and a Criticize without Repercussion thread. I think if there was a combination of the two, it would solve a lot of problems!

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2 hours ago, RadSam said:

Isn't there a 'Rant and Rave' thread? Or something similar? Some of these posts are longer than I am tall (I'm not very tall, but that's not the point.). Maybe pop on over there with those long, ranty posts.

And also, enough with the constant whinging and complaining. If the show is that horrible that you have to complain about every little aspect of it, do us all a favour and just stop watching it.

I would suggest that if you can't stomach criticism of the show, stay out of the forums. This is the spoiler episode thread, and there will be good and bad points pointed out.

 

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3 hours ago, Attitude said:

 

With this part of your post you're contradicting yourself. You pretty much hate everything the writers thought out themselves. I guess that's because you expect perfect recreated book scene's. Now they decide to take the ToJ and recreate it, and you suddenly say the writers that they are only able to copy stuff GRRM already wrote. Can't you see those statements contradict eachother? What do you expect from them? You don't want them to change the story (let's not get into the reason why they change it for now), but you also hate it when they copy GRRM's work. What should they do? Stop the show entirely?

It's a criticism I certainly don't share. First, it's no surprise the show has suffered the last couple seasons given the books they were based on. I'm actually somewhat surprised the writers were able to make anything coherent out of that mess at all. In many cases, they've simply refused to allow the story to disintegrate and the pieces to fly off in all directions as Martin has. By cutting roles, combining characters, and reweaving story arcs together, they've managed to more or less sustain a narrative with some forward momentum. They haven't always executed it flawlessly, or even particularly well, but at least they managed it. Martin hasn't.

Second, it's no surprise that some of the worst show content (Dorne) is based on some of the weakest book content. We could only wish they had cut it altogether, as they have some of the other weak, flailing content from the last two books. We could only wish that Martin had cut it as well, as the best one can say about it is that it's bad in a different way in the books.

(If you take a more charitable view of the last two books, you like all the "internal character development" and all the new characters and story arcs that are being spun off from the central narrative spine of the story, that's cool. It's still not filmable.)

Third, it's not D&D or HBO's fault they have to make up stuff. In some cases, they have to make up stuff in order to actually move the story forward because Martin has been incapable of doing it himself. In other cases, they have to make up stuff because Martin hasn't written anything at all.

Fourth, some of the show-exclusive content (Hardhome) is better than anything Martin has written in the last two books on pretty much all fronts: protagonists taking action that matters, meaningful character growth and development that drives that action, actually showing us the threat from the Others and making it real, the excitement of discovery that comes with being shown more of the larger story, driving the central narrative forward.

In short, the show isn't perfect and it's really struggled at times. But in my opinion, that's because it's based on six books thus far: three masterpieces, two that show the author has lost his story, and one that hasn't been written yet.

In my opinion,

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On 5/2/2016 at 10:43 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

I agree: Jon letting his Resurrectrix burn all the traitors alive seems only fitting. Plus it saves having to sharpen the axe first, since they’re just going to burn them after they’re dead anyway. Otherwise they’ll just get all blue-eyed on them.

Spoiler

Well that could explain the rumors of all the smoke seen at Castle Black in leaked photos. People assumed it was Jon's funeral pyre but it could be Mel having a traitor bonfire.

 

 

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9 hours ago, TepidHands said:

I would suggest that if you can't stomach criticism of the show, stay out of the forums. This is the spoiler episode thread, and there will be good and bad points pointed out.

 

I can stomach the criticism, but what they're saying isn't criticism. It's nitpicking and whinging. It's elitist book fans who hate the show, but continue to watch and complain. 

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On May 2, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I get the feeling that Ramsay thinks he has the Umbers, Katstarks and (was the 3rd one the Manderleys?) in the bag, which gives him the balance of power in the North.  In reality, I think those houses are playing along in a Northern plot to overthrow the Boltons.  A Karstark, who has reason to hate the Starks, is well placed to convince Ramsay, but Roose would always be sceptical.  They need to get rid of Roose, but how? If Ramsay believes that he has got all he needs from Roose and Roose is only going to hold him back from controlling the North, then killing Roose would appeal to him too.  Ramsay has been legitimised and Roose has publicly stated that Ramsay is his firstborn and heir.  If Roose is dead, he can't take it back, he can't belittle Ramsays plans and he can't call the shots.  Ramsay is able to get close enough to Roose to kill him.  Ramsay killing him rather than one of the other northerners makes them all still seem to be on Ramsay's side and makes him feel in control.  They would also let Walda be sacrificed, with her being a Frey.  Ramsay will be a lot easier for them to overthrow without Roose in the picture.

I agree that it's a shame to see Roose go. He's a really interesting character in both book and show and well cast.

I agree completely. I immediately thought it would have been much more interesting if Roose had killed Ramsey during the hug. That's what I was convinced happened in the brief seconds of a pause before Roose's stabbing was revealed. He's a much more believable and complex character than Ramsey IMO and very well cast in the show. But I think they're setting up for a big Ramsey take down now and subsequent rising up in the north. I agree that Rickon will be involved and hopefully Shaggydog will be involved in Ramsey's elimination.

Overall I'm enjoying this new season very much; the last two episodes most certainly feel like a big build up for lots of action to come. I was also a little underwhelmed by Jon's resurrection, but I'm guessing more will be revealed this week. Tower of Joy - soooo excited!

Now that nearly five years have passed since I've read the books, I'm enjoying the show much more. I've stopped comparing it so much to the books. I've started to re-read the books several times without success which I'm now thankful for because so many details have faded. Before this season premiere I re-watched all previous episodes and enjoyed just taking them in for what they were separate from the books. Can't wait for the rest of this season!

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8 hours ago, calilou said:

I agree completely. I immediately thought it would have been much more interesting if Roose had killed Ramsey during the hug. That's what I was convinced happened in the brief seconds of a pause before Roose's stabbing was revealed. He's a much more believable and complex character than Ramsey IMO and very well cast in the show. But I think they're setting up for a big Ramsey take down now and subsequent rising up in the north. I agree that Rickon will be involved and hopefully Shaggydog will be involved in Ramsey's elimination.

Overall I'm enjoying this new season very much; the last two episodes most certainly feel like a big build up for lots of action to come. I was also a little underwhelmed by Jon's resurrection, but I'm guessing more will be revealed this week. Tower of Joy - soooo excited!

Now that nearly five years have passed since I've read the books, I'm enjoying the show much more. I've stopped comparing it so much to the books. I've started to re-read the books several times without success which I'm now thankful for because so many details have faded. Before this season premiere I re-watched all previous episodes and enjoyed just taking them in for what they were separate from the books. Can't wait for the rest of this season!

Totally agree!

I thought at first that Roose killed Ramsay too, now that he had his new heir.  

I did a full 5 season rewatch before this series too. Was really surprised how much I'd missed or forgotten! I'm doing a book re-read too but that is taking longer than I thought and I'm just finishing book 3. Book 2 for me is a bit of an effort to get through, but some great nuggets of detail and foreshadowing in there too.  Like you, I'm enjoying them both as 2 separate entities.  It's interesting to see what they change - I think some of the characters come across much better on TV (Sansa, Davos & Bronn especially) and I like the Tyrion/Varys and Jaime/Bronn pairings.  There are always going to be changes or differences people don't like, but I don't envy the writers trying to condense that much detail and make it work for a TV viewer. I know I couldn't do it!  I'm really enjoying the show so far and am beyond excited for ToJ next week.

I think Jon's resurrection has more to give in next week's ep when the rest of Castle Black see him.  I'd love to see Thorne's reaction!!  It's still not really clear why Davos is helping Jon, so I hope they cover that too.

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On 3 May 2016 at 0:12 AM, nara said:

I didn't like the Roose death because it was so unsatisfying--one unpleasant character kills another. Would have preferred a Stark or Theon or even Brienne to have done the deed.

 

You've hit the nail on the head! I hadn't worked out why it felt a bit underwhelming at the same time as being shocking, but that's it.  It would be like finding out Walder Frey had died comfortably in his sleep.

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20 hours ago, TepidHands said:

I would suggest that if you can't stomach criticism of the show, stay out of the forums. This is the spoiler episode thread, and there will be good and bad points pointed out.

Nothing wrong with criticism - I'm all for it, including criticism of criticisms.

Why does the forum have to be biased towards either the books or the show? For me there are good and bad aspects in each - the trouble is there aren't any threads that constructively criticize and compare both mediums, like:

Show Cersie is a deeper character than book Cersie

Book Tyrion has far more character depth than show Tyrion

and so on

Further, there never seem to be many threads intelligently discussing why these differences occur, like:

Show Tyrion is probably more shallow than book Tyrion because the actor didn't want to be portrayed riding a pig for laughs and rejecting the advances of a dwarf woman.

Instead, it seems to be either team GRRM or team D&D, when many things are probably beyond either of their control. Which is also extremely ironic, because one of the key messages in the books and show seems to be that picking sides is bad.

Edited by ummester
spelling

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1 hour ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

You've hit the nail on the head! I hadn't worked out why it felt a bit underwhelming at the same time as being shocking, but that's it.  It would be like finding out Walder Frey had died comfortably in his sleep.

Most of the 'bad guys' have been killed less dramatically than the 'good guys' in this saga. Joffrey really got let off light, Robb watched his wife and unborn child stabbed to death, was slowly killed by stomach wounds himself and then paraded around with a wolfs head on his shoulders. A character's 'goodness' seems more relevant to how dramatically and gruesomely they are killed than anything else.

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11 minutes ago, ummester said:

Nothing wrong with criticism - I'm all for it, including criticism of criticisms.

Why does the forum have to be biased towards either the books or the show? For me there are good and bad aspects in each - the trouble is there aren't any threads that constructively criticize and compare both mediums, like:

Show Cersie is a deeper character than book Cersie

Book Tyrion has far more character depth than show Tyrion

and so on

Further, there never seem to be many threads intelligently discussing why these differences occur, like:

Show Tyrion is probably more shallow than book Tyrion because the actor didn't want to be portrayed riding a pig for laughs and rejecting the advances of a dwarf woman.

Instead, it seems to be either team GRRM or team D&D, when many things are probably beyond either of their control. Which is also extremely ironic, because one of the key messages in the books and show seems to be that picking sides is bad.

That's a good idea actually. I like it. Perhaps you could make those threads for the upcoming episodes as they're released?

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

Nothing wrong with criticism - I'm all for it, including criticism of criticisms.

Why does the forum have to be biased towards either the books or the show? For me there are good and bad aspects in each - the trouble is there aren't any threads that constructively criticize and compare both mediums, like:

Show Cersie is a deeper character than book Cersie

Book Tyrion has far more character depth than show Tyrion

and so on

Further, there never seem to be many threads intelligently discussing why these differences occur, like:

Show Tyrion is probably more shallow than book Tyrion because the actor didn't want to be portrayed riding a pig for laughs and rejecting the advances of a dwarf woman.

Instead, it seems to be either team GRRM or team D&D, when many things are probably beyond either of their control. Which is also extremely ironic, because one of the key messages in the books and show seems to be that picking sides is bad.

I guess I wasn't clear... My reply to the poster was meant to address his apparent anger about criticism of the show and telling critics: If you don't like it, stop watching. People should be able to watch something and point out its flaws as well as its successes. There are threads for both praise and criticism, but this is an episode discussion forum, so we're going to get both here. Telling the critics to quit watching or quit talking about it is trying to silence one side of the discussion.

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I think people get misunderstood sometimes. I understand criticism for flaws, that's normal and healthy. I don't understand criticizing from a viewpoint that starts out from a perspective of I don't like this show. Because when it starts from not liking it, then of course you will hate all of it.

The part a lot of people don't understand is, if you hate something, why on earth do you keep watching it? I don't like poking myself in the eye, so guess what, I don't do it. I don't do it repeatedly and then bitch and moan on ophthalmology forums about eye pain!

I watched a show called under the dome. I liked the premise and the first season was somewhat interesting. After that it lost me. Did I find a forum about it, continue to watch it in misery and then tear it apart on the forum? No, I stopped watching something that wasn't entertaining to me and moved on with my free time.

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15 hours ago, TepidHands said:

I guess I wasn't clear... My reply to the poster was meant to address his apparent anger about criticism of the show and telling critics: If you don't like it, stop watching. People should be able to watch something and point out its flaws as well as its successes. There are threads for both praise and criticism, but this is an episode discussion forum, so we're going to get both here. Telling the critics to quit watching or quit talking about it is trying to silence one side of the discussion.

The posts I'm talking about aren't just pointing out flaws and successes. I'm talking about the elitist book fans who expect it to be conveyed book to screen with 100% accuracy. It's not going to happen. And when it doesn't, they not only bash it, but do it in a way that makes them sound like petty children throwing a tantrum. I was trying to say that if those particular posts can be moved to a different thread, I'd prefer it, but that doesn't mean I expect that to happen. 

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11 hours ago, dbunting said:

I think people get misunderstood sometimes. I understand criticism for flaws, that's normal and healthy. I don't understand criticizing from a viewpoint that starts out from a perspective of I don't like this show. Because when it starts from not liking it, then of course you will hate all of it.

The part a lot of people don't understand is, if you hate something, why on earth do you keep watching it? I don't like poking myself in the eye, so guess what, I don't do it. I don't do it repeatedly and then bitch and moan on ophthalmology forums about eye pain!

I watched a show called under the dome. I liked the premise and the first season was somewhat interesting. After that it lost me. Did I find a forum about it, continue to watch it in misery and then tear it apart on the forum? No, I stopped watching something that wasn't entertaining to me and moved on with my free time.

What I think people are complaining about is that the show isn't following the plot they hoped to see in the books.

Every episode we see a slew of complaints about scenes being 'pointless'. Remember in season 5 when people were complaining about the nude Loras sex scene? They whined about that being unnecessary for weeks. And you can be sure none of them retracted after Loras was arrested and put on trial.

This week people complained that WE THE VIEWERS know what Ramsay is. Well Karstark certainly doesn't know what we know. And that scene will surely be pivotal in the battle of Winterfell.

I have yet to see a scene that people complained about being 'pointless' that didn't turn out to be important later on. D&D have very little time to get the story in. 

The murder of fat Walder and the baby had to be shown because otherwise people would be talking about the possibility of the true Bolton heir being found. 

Another area we get complaints is when people claim the showrunners are 'wrong'. There are some people who still think Shireen is going to be teaching kids to read in book 7 rather than being thrown on a bonfire in the opening chapters of book 6. And as for Stannis...

The showrunners do make changes. GRRM's plots are awfully complex and indulgent and they leave important characters with nothing to do for far too long for the show. The fake Arya arc was originally planned for Sansa. Giving it back to her is hardly the travesty some would have it. Combining three prostitutes into one was a pretty good idea.

At the end of the day, the showrunners have done a terrific job of getting viewers for HBO and making a lot of money. So the battle scenes in season 5 had hundreds of actors while the kings hunting party in season 1 had only three actors.

Oh and silliest of all, folk who are always predicting a reveal of R+J=L in the next show or the one after that. Nope, not happening, not till the last season. Anything revealed before then will almost certainly turn out to be wrong. Just as we found out that Littlefinger lied about the dagger belonging to Tyrion,

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21 hours ago, ummester said:

Nothing wrong with criticism - I'm all for it, including criticism of criticisms.

Why does the forum have to be biased towards either the books or the show? For me there are good and bad aspects in each - the trouble is there aren't any threads that constructively criticize and compare both mediums, like:

Show Cersie is a deeper character than book Cersie

Book Tyrion has far more character depth than show Tyrion

and so on

Further, there never seem to be many threads intelligently discussing why these differences occur, like:

Show Tyrion is probably more shallow than book Tyrion because the actor didn't want to be portrayed riding a pig for laughs and rejecting the advances of a dwarf woman.

Instead, it seems to be either team GRRM or team D&D, when many things are probably beyond either of their control. Which is also extremely ironic, because one of the key messages in the books and show seems to be that picking sides is bad.

yes I think you are spot on with this. Its not so much that one is good and one is bad, clearly both are good in their own way, have their own strengths and weaknesses. The books do detail, political landscape and character depth well, the show moves forward at a better pace and can often be more intense and exciting. That partly a matter of the medium.

So when someone complains about a change (which often is merely a bitter complaint that they didn't do a direct page to screen translation) they totally miss the point of WHY things are changed and why characters are different. 

Show Tyrion is more shallow than Book Tyrion:
All characters are going to be more shallow than their book counterparts because there is less time with them and importantly, no internal monologues. Much of Tyrions chapters in the later books were cut due to them slowing down the pace, but also because there is no battle of meereen, no Aegon and the need for him to be in Meereen a lot sooner. The aim of the show is often to try and fit in character development where they can and try to make sure it is at the same time as pushing the story forward. 

Of course, the mentalists on the board might suggest that Tyrion is different to book tyrion because their is a conspiracy to make him look like a saint because he's a popular character. That shows a gross ignorance of everything that is going on in the show.

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