[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[Ser Quork]

20 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Agreed, many people are saying Jon is dumb for playing into Ramsays hand by falling into Ramsays trap with Rickon so easily and I agree that he did easily succumb to Ramsays plot  with Rickon but when people say he is stupid for it I must digress. It's easy to say he should not have done that and it was obvious that it was a trap and he would die but it's really easy to sit in judgement with the clarity of hindsight and intellectual detachment, to me it was the most beautiful and human moment of the season without D$D meaning it! Jons love of his brother was so pure and strong that when Jon saw him in mortal danger Jons heart drove him to risk everything including his own life in order to save Rickon, Jon did not want to live in a world where Rickon was dead and Jon had not done everything humanly possible to prevent him dying! To me it was absolutely in character and reasonable for him to attempt this, it may not have been the smart move but it was the right move for this man, his humanity and his courage when tested shone through more than self preservation. It's just a shame that this was an accidental occurence that D$D lucked onto in their desire to make him look incompetent and Sansa empowered that they gave me the satisfaction of identifying and admiring Jon more than ever for the exact opposite  reasons than D$D wanted me to!

Yes.  The only genuinely affecting moment, rather than their contrivances.  I'm never going to hate Jon for that.

[Neds Secret]

16 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I'm fine with him racing to save Rickon, but then charging at Ramsay with incoherent rage was just one more attempt to make the Starks look idiotic and the cruel and calculating character of Ramsay look smart.

Even in defeat Ramsay Sue was the smartest man in the room, he showed no fear, kept wisecracking, took Wun Wun with him and even kept grinning while his face was being bludgeoned to pieces. It was actually pathetic, he made no mistakes and kept his dignity and his alpha male calm and his transcendent humour until the hounds bit him, D$Ds so called realism is a load of bullshit, he should have been shown to be panicking when the Vale troops appeared, he should have been lost and riddled with fear during his retreat, when Jon was smashing his face in he should have been shrieking in pain and terror, but no he still grins. D$D were so in love with Iwan and Ramsay they let him go out on his own terms, in a blaze of glory, he even got to mouth of at Sansa when his jaw should have been unable to even open and close, it was unrealistic, anachronistic and amateurish and it absolutely reeks of fanfic! 

[Darkstream]

41 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Agreed, many people are saying Jon is dumb for playing into Ramsays hand by falling into Ramsays trap with Rickon so easily and I agree that he did easily succumb to Ramsays plot  with Rickon but when people say he is stupid for it I must digress. It's easy to say he should not have done that and it was obvious that it was a trap and he would die but it's really easy to sit in judgement with the clarity of hindsight and intellectual detachment, to me it was the most beautiful and human moment of the season without D$D meaning it! Jons love of his brother was so pure and strong that when Jon saw him in mortal danger Jons heart drove him to risk everything including his own life in order to save Rickon, Jon did not want to live in a world where Rickon was dead and Jon had not done everything humanly possible to prevent him dying! To me it was absolutely in character and reasonable for him to attempt this, it may not have been the smart move but it was the right move for this man, his humanity and his courage when tested shone through more than self preservation. It's just a shame that this was an accidental occurence that D$D lucked onto in their desire to make him look incompetent and Sansa empowered that they gave me the satisfaction of identifying and admiring Jon more than ever for the exact opposite  reasons than D$D wanted me to!

 I couldn't have said it better myself. 

It's everything before this moment that has really pissed me off with d$d's portrayal of Jon, and making him look like a useless dumb twat. @Ser Biscuit just recently posted an excellent summary illustrating Jon's utter incompetence in the show, in comparison to the real Jon, GRRM's Jon. 

 

[Survivor92]

8 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Even in defeat Ramsay Sue was the smartest man in the room, he showed no fear, kept wisecracking, took Wun Wun with him and even kept grinning while his face was being bludgeoned to pieces. It was actually pathetic, he made no mistakes and kept his dignity and his alpha male calm and his transcendent humour until the hounds bit him, D$Ds so called realism is a load of bullshit, he should have been shown to be panicking when the Vale troops appeared, he should have been lost and riddled with fear during his retreat, when Jon was smashing his face in he should have been shrieking in pain and terror, but no he still grins. D$D were so in love with Iwan and Ramsay they let him go out on his own terms, in a blaze of glory, he even got to mouth of at Sansa when his jaw should have been unable to even open and close, it was unrealistic, anachronistic and amateurish and it absolutely reeks of fanfic! 

Agreed. I thought I was watching a Batman movie with the Joker, instead of Ramsay. His manical grin while his face was being punched to pulp was totally how the Joker would react.

ESPECIALLY people like Ramsay, who are always in control and hold the power, should completely break and panic once that power is taken away from them. We should've seen a panicked Ramsay flee to Winterfell and then either attempt to run away or hide.

[Neds Secret]

26 minutes ago, Survivor92 said:

Agreed. I thought I was watching a Batman movie with the Joker, instead of Ramsay. His manical grin while his face was being punched to pulp was totally how the Joker would react.

ESPECIALLY people like Ramsay, who are always in control and hold the power, should completely break and panic once that power is taken away from them. We should've seen a panicked Ramsay flee to Winterfell and then either attempt to run away or hide.

Yes, realistically Ramsay should have been broken by losing his power but D$D could not see this happening, I actually wonder if when D$D read the books (if they read the books) that they actually suspected Ramsay of being Azor Ahai or TPtwP for a long while and were totally heartbroken when George told them "I'm sorry guys but Ramsay dies" in Winterfell by being eaten by his hounds in the Crypts, or some such! Perhaps that is what caused the falling out that I suspect has happened between GRRM and D$D, "When George told us that Ramsay died a little piece of us died that day as well"! Lol ,  well that's how I see it in my head and I'm sticking with it and Summer and Shaggyand  Greywind are all playing in the Wolfswood where George hid them from D$D just for me, in my head and I'm happy!!

[Survivor92]

45 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Yes, realistically Ramsay should have been broken by losing his power but D$D could not see this happening, I actually wonder if when D$D read the books (if they read the books) that they actually suspected Ramsay of being Azor Ahai or TPtwP for a long while and were totally heartbroken when George told them "I'm sorry guys but Ramsay dies" in Winterfell by being eaten by his hounds in the Crypts, or some such! Perhaps that is what caused the falling out that I suspect has happened between GRRM and D$D, "When George told us that Ramsay died a little piece of us died that day as well"! Lol ,  well that's how I see it in my head and I'm sticking with it and Summer and Shaggyand  Greywind are all playing in the Wolfswood where George hid them from D$D just for me, in my head and I'm happy!!

I think, to put it bluntly, that D&D are part of the minority that think GRRM "lost it" after A Storm of Swords. Personally, I think GRRM may have introduced a bit too many new POV characters and some chapters are a bit boring (but then again, everyone can find chapters/characters to love and hate in ASOIAF, so perhaps that is not necessarily a bad thing); yet there are many moments where his brilliance shines through in book 4 and 5. I am also personally a fan of his order of chapters in book 4/5.

Anyway, to get back to D&D, I think they honestly believe GRRM wasted a lot of potential after book 3 and will likely never finish book 6 or 7. So, D&D have taken it upon themselves to "improve" on the source material and be the first to provide an ending to the ASOIAF series. At the same time, they're probably jealous that they're only succesful because of GRRM's creation. Six years of praise doesn't do well to a man's ego or character and I can imagine at this point they feel like they should own the franchise (and they don't, which is why they want to wrap it up and move on I imagine).

I can understand why GRRM gave them the rights and perhaps I would've made the same decision. Nevertheless, it is quite sad that a television series will give away the ending to your fantasy epos before you can do it yourself. Imagine if the LotR movies were released before the final book. Now that he has no way to finish it all before the series end, that must be a killing blow to his writing motivation too.

[Neds Secret]

3 minutes ago, Survivor92 said:

I think, to put it bluntly, that D&D are part of the minority that think GRRM "lost it" after A Storm of Swords. Personally, I think GRRM may have introduced a bit too many new POV characters and some chapters are a bit boring (but then again, everyone can find chapters/characters to love and hate in ASOIAF, so perhaps that is not necessarily a bad thing); yet there are many moments where his brilliance shines through in book 4 and 5. I am also personally a fan of his order of chapters in book 4/5.

Anyway, to get back to D&D, I think they honestly believe GRRM wasted a lot of potential after book 3 and will likely never finish book 6 or 7. So, D&D have taken it upon themselves to "improve" on the source material and be the first to provide an ending to the ASOIAF series. At the same time, they're probably jealous that they're only succesful because of GRRM's creation. Six years of praise doesn't do well to a man's ego or character and I can imagine at this point they feel like they should own the franchise (and they don't, which is why they want to wrap it up and move on I imagine).

I can understand why GRRM gave them the rights and perhaps I would've made the same decision. Nevertheless, it is quite sad that a television series will give away the ending to your fantasy epos before you can do it yourself. Imagine if the LotR movies were released before the final book. Now that he has no way to finish it all before the series end, that must be a killing blow to his writing motivation too.

Interesting, and yeah I agree with some of these sentiments, however I see that D$D "streamlined" a lot of books 4 and 5 only to go back and do it this season, and do it rather poorly in my opinion.

[Iron Mother]

2 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

Agreed, many people are saying Jon is dumb for playing into Ramsays hand by falling into Ramsays trap with Rickon so easily and I agree that he did easily succumb to Ramsays plot  with Rickon but when people say he is stupid for it I must digress. It's easy to say he should not have done that and it was obvious that it was a trap and he would die but it's really easy to sit in judgement with the clarity of hindsight and intellectual detachment, to me it was the most beautiful and human moment of the season without D$D meaning it! Jons love of his brother was so pure and strong that when Jon saw him in mortal danger Jons heart drove him to risk everything including his own life in order to save Rickon, Jon did not want to live in a world where Rickon was dead and Jon had not done everything humanly possible to prevent him dying! To me it was absolutely in character and reasonable for him to attempt this, it may not have been the smart move but it was the right move for this man, his humanity and his courage when tested shone through more than self preservation. It's just a shame that this was an accidental occurence that D$D lucked onto in their desire to make him look incompetent and Sansa empowered that they gave me the satisfaction of identifying and admiring Jon more than ever for the exact opposite  reasons than D$D wanted me to!

It is of Jon's character to act that way.  I did not just the character for it either..... mayhaps I just wasn't having the feels for Rickon we had not seen him in forever and his character was one dimensional so it did not evoke so much for me, I was way more moved by the staunch Sansa how she was immovable in determination............ they really flipped around "traditional" male/female mores with that how you would expect the female to be weeping over her brother and the male to be like "we must be strong and do our duty" - the event really highlighted both characters with much esteem.  But at the end, Sansa's clinical tactician mind was breath-taking.  it shows how utterly died and reborn she has become.  Recall when Ned Stark was beheaded, she actually passed out and fell to the ground.  Distraught.  Overwrought.  Now, she looks it right in the face and  has no questions. 

It wasn't even like she imagined Rickon might live.  To her, he was already dead (which was the truth).  She made the adjustment and moved forward in truth.  None of them would have survived if not for her.  Until I just wrote that, I didn't even consider it.  "The North" would have died if not for Sansa,  All of them, crushed.  Jon was the Loser Commander.  Clearer heads prevail against evil.  It reminded me of the Old stories told in World of Ice and Fire of women like Nymeria and Joanna or the Andal witch that single-handedly defeated the First Men warrior in the land now known as the Vale.... or Rhaenys Targaryen, it seems like all the fierce women were in olden times.  WOW what a change for Sansa and her lemon-caking self.  She maybe isn't herself the warrior but she's now a real strategist.... and I'll keep saying, she learned from the best - from LittleFinger.

Damnit if I want to know what his real plan is.  I want to know if I should love or hate him already.  He's gonna be a major adversary for sure it's a given.  Mayhaps against Sansa.  Seeing as how Sansa used her knowledge of Ramsay to defeat him, WON'T she use LF's character and her insight into him against him?  That would be most interesting.  I seem to recall LF saying something about conquering people by FUCKING them.  Such as, not slashing them with a sword or a gun but beating them by seducing them and giving them what they want?  He NEVER wields the steal.  But he did sheath Lysa

That few moments when Lysa revealed he and she were behind EVERYTHING from John Arryn to Robert to Ned Stark that maybe was in the top few most shocking moments in GoT history.  Up there with TOJ if that ever happens now

[kissdbyfire]

So... any hope at all that psychopimp LF gets his comeuppance tonight? 

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So... any hope at all that psychopimp LF gets his comeuppance tonight? 

Unfortunately I don't think so. I wish he got mangled into a BF-pie, for totally screwing the North. Who knows with Manderly there after all.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Unfortunately I don't think so. I wish he got mangled into a BF-pie, for totally screwing the North. Who knows with Manderly there after all.

I agree, they won't kill him off just yet. Which is a real shame, I simply can't even look at his mug anymore, and the ever-changing accent/voice, just UGH. And anything "interesting" that might happen in the books will not happen on GoT; on GoT LF is the same as everyone else: as clever or as dumb as the plot requires him to be. And Smirking Sandra, please, don't get me started...

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree, they won't kill him off just yet. Which is a real shame, I simply can't even look at his mug anymore, and the ever-changing accent/voice, just UGH. And anything "interesting" that might happen in the books will not happen on GoT; on GoT LF is the same as everyone else: as clever or as dumb as the plot requires him to be. And Smirking Sandra, please, don't get me started...

That guy didn't "save" the North. He's the primal cause of the North being fucked up in the first place - drags the North into a war that he orchestrated, all for petty reasons (your sister), that leads to the death of half the Stark family. And if he truly had wanted to help the North, he wouldn't have only contacted Sandra and whisper "half-brother", but he would have contacted Jon, the commander of the army. I do think that at some point the remaining Vale army will come into play in the books, but since Yohn Royce has been kept far away from all the shit that's to go down at the Gates of the Moon and that tourney, it's gonna be Yohn Royce making some stand, imo against Others.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That guy didn't "save" the North. He's the primal cause of the North being fucked up in the first place - drags the North into a war that he orchestrated, all for petty reasons (your sister), that leads to the death of half the Stark family. And if he truly had wanted to help the North, he wouldn't have only contacted Sandra and whisper "half-brother", but he would have contacted Jon, the commander of the army. I do think that at some point the remaining Vale army will come into play in the books, but since Yohn Royce has been kept far away from all the shit that's to go down at the Gates of the Moon and that tourney, it's gonna be Yohn Royce making some stand, imo against Others.

Yes, having the PsychoPimp That Was Promised rescue the north was one insanely bad idea, to put it mildly. And there's that interview with Gillen where he says something about LF "atoning". I wonder if he was talking about saving the Starks' arses, or can we expect more redemption for LF? What a sad joke. 

[sweetsunray]

On top of that, I'm quite sure that Darth Sandra will be played again by BF. He likes to punish her if she doesn't immediately accept his help. He offered to get her out of KL, she declined because she hoped to marry Loras, he betrayed the plans to Tywin and so she had to marry Tyrion instead. He's not going to take it kindly that she rejected his dozen apologies. And he also always prefers to creation tension and make two dogs fight. He did it first by whispering "half brother" to her. All he has to do now is hand Jon the letter Darth Sandra sent to him by raven to prove she knew and kept it secret. He may want WF, and her in power, but he wants her chasticed for rejecting him first... as he did with Cat. He wants her co-dependent first and toe his line without objection. And d$d so enjoy punishing Sandra for her screw ups. No woman on top for her, but on a leash back to the Vale.

[Ruhail]

I wish Wun Wun was alive to go Patrek Massey on Cia man.

[kissdbyfire]

Smirky Sandra and Batfinger, St Tyrion and a vision of Shae, Khaleesi and Arya Westeros-bound, Emo Pup KitN, Brutienne, Larry and Carol's Affair to Remember, Yarasharion, ToJ II THE MISSION & Chinless Young Ned encore, Bran and Meera and Benjen Ex Machina, Davos and Red Dress, Samwell and Mrs Tarly with a stolen sword, KL deathappaloosa, Olenna, Varys and Ellaria, and *hopefully* the Snakes... Yup, Clarke was right, it's going to me mental all right - but maybe not as she meant it. 

[Tyrek Lannister]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 it's gonna be Yohn Royce making some stand, imo against Others.

That would be great considering the prologue of GoT.

[rosehustle1]

11 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

You only need to answer: DO YOU BELIEVE they could have saved Rickon in any way............ maimed/flayed/castrated, etc.

Y/N? (circle one)

If you circle N, then Lady Sandra make the correct call as a realist and was right trying to get them to wait for more men.  Jon was the bleeding heart thinking with a "half-plan" like he was going in like Green Lantern to throw a bubble around Rickon and fly away blocking all assaults.  It was Lady Sandra who confronted Ramsay to test him "do you even HAVE him [Rickon]" and Ramsay was prepared by throwing Shaggy Head into the snow.

If you circle Y then you are saying Jon WAS NOT the witless Lazarus acting on impulse for love of his brother and about to get everyone killed without a coherent plan. Sure it seemed weird for poor Lady Sandra - a girl - to stand up to the resurrected savior all the guys are now masturbating to and following anywhere in awe of his prowess.  But she asserted herself.

This is what I think. The writers decided not to make any consistent characterization for Sansa which created this weird ambiguity we see now. In reality, it was very possible to save Rickon because Sansa knew about the Vale knights I think in episode 4. If she told Jon then about it, I believe that would have been the perfect time to plan the spearwives infiltration. That would have been a good plan b as a way to get Rickon out of WF, and would show some semblance to the books. Also Jon would have more leverage when they met with the Northern Lords. They could have bypassed Bear Island and went to White Harbor who have more troops. With the very real possibility of the Vale backing them, I think Manderly and the other Northern Lords would have been much easier to convince because it looks like they actually could win. That is a much more interesting way to carry out this plot and save Rickon. The writers decided not to create any possibility for Rickon to be saved but that doesn't mean that with better writers this couldn't have been achieved. I also think this would have allowed for a possible story line where Sansa and Jon are playing LF, making him believe marriage with Sansa is on the table, but they are secretly working with Lord Royce and the other Vale lords to overthrow him once the battle is won. How cool would it have been to have the Vale soldiers turn on LF once the Starks won. It would be a nice parallel to when Cersei had the gold cloaks turn on Ned because of LF's betrayal. That would have been a cool thing to see Sansa do to him. But alas, my head canons will never be.

[rosehustle1]

9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Wow, now Brazil AND Belgium have weighed in that a fetus of violent/unloving sex has no value whatsoever to the woman carrying it.  Sansa is a deeply spiritual woman, always trying to get to the Godswood, clinging to the Old Gods, and I do not see her as taking vengeance on the innocent just because the father was horrible.  I can't believe -- are you women speaking this way? 

Catelyn Stark could not bear a bastard in her midst, she never loved Jon, Sansa is the better person.  Saying she would flush it out as if she has no power herself, to choose to love it regardless of the father, that gives shame to all women globally..... and it may possibly be why the Olympics are going to spread Zika to the known world in the failed state of South Portugal.  God loveth a cheerful giver.  This feels like a room full of Lannister MEN, meting out womanly justice with Moon Tea.  I will decimate your HOUSE by slaying your seed..... isn't that the words of House Kraken - the OLD Kraken who slew everyone at Nagga's Hill?  Herig Hor or whatever.  Setting his orcmen loose on the unarmed

A woman is again very tired

I think that Sansa has the right to choose whether or not she wants to carry a child to term, from that kind of situation. Some women find it difficult to look at a child born from that kind of violence and violation without resentment. Some women can reconcile what happened and love the child as a reflection of themselves. It's a complicated and emotionally traumatizing situation that I would never dictate to another woman how to behave or what choice to make. I definitely wouldn't judge her if she either kept it or decided to take something to miscarry.

I won't judge Catelyn for not accepting or loving Jon. It would have been nice for her to care about him but it was a shitty situation for Ned to put her in. Most men don't raise their bastards among their true born children. They send them to live as wards at other homes. For her to come home with baby Rob, after a year of not seeing Ned, to find his bastard child living at WF must have felt like a huge betrayal. Not to mention that this is now a public slight against her. Even if Ned is doing all this to protect Jon, Catelyn doesn't know that. All she knows is that she now has to worry about her children being possibly pushed down the line of inheritance if Ned ever thought of getting Jon legitimized. She has to worry that Jon may try to play his hand later to gain some foothold. Of course, the reader knows that Jon would never do this, but Catelyn doesn't. She has to go on what she knows of how these things usually work and the very real problems others have had with bastard children trying to stage coups for inheritance.

[Le Cygne]

EW is hinting pretty much every major character will appear (that's a lot for 69 minutes):

Quote

Here’s what I know: Unlike some of the Thrones finales that aired after action-packed episodes, this season-ender definitely does not slow down the pace. You can expect pretty much every major character to make an appearance, with Cersei and Ser Loras’ trial serving as a pivotal centerpiece that will change King’s Landing politics next year. But the real question hanging over this last hour is whether Bran will return to the Tower of Joy. Here’s hoping!

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/24/spoiler-room-quantico-game-thrones-outlander-spoilers