Future Null Infinity Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said: She was whitnessed in the Godswood the Night of her marriage, dressed up and she said "I take This Man". Sorry but I was speaking about her marriage to Tyrion Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenysBee Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Wow, so many ideas and assumptions. Why in the world would anybody proclaim Sansa queen? They proclaimed Robb stark king when they went to war against the Lannisters and the Iron Throne. This time, the fight is about Winterfell and the North itself, the conflict has nothing to do with having to answer to a higher standing ruler such as the king of the seven kingdoms in the south. And if the north remembers they probably remember how well it turned out the last time they proclaimed a stark child monarch of the north. And why Sansa? Yes, season six may be about girl power (because that was such a thing in medieval times), but Sansa is really nothing other than a dedicated spirit to restore house stark. She is Eddard's daughter, true, but she has two living brothers (at this point) and she already has two husbands. She is not alligable for marriage to seal an alliance with a supportive northern house as she is bound to house Bolton and Lannister by marriage. In this position, nobody in their right mind would ever want Sansa as a ruler, especially that she doesn't know how to lead an army and her diplomatic and political skills are still quite questionable (at least I have not seen anything that would prove she's become the ultimate female Tywin Lannister). If I were the north, I wouldn't raise my banners for Sansa. Rescuing Rickon the true heir to Winterfell from Ramsay on the other hand is something I might raise them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Edd of House Tollet Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 All the questions in this matter have a simple solution: ROBB STARK'S WILL I hope the writers were smart enough to remember that after Bran and Rickon's supposed deaths, Robb wrote a will that legitimized Jon as his heir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 8 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said: All the questions in this matter have a simple solution: ROBB STARK'S WILL I hope the writers were smart enough to remember that after Bran and Rickon's supposed deaths, Robb wrote a will that legitimized Jon as his heir Not in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Risto said: So, the story they are telling us is that this particular female character (not that she is the only one in this) can only command some power if there is a guy she will kiss? I don't think so. The show is obviously emphasizing Sansa's independence. But, what will they make out of it is another thing. I think you completely missed my sarcasm. The power comes from the Vale army and Littlefinger. The question becomes, is Sansa willing to sell herself out for an army to take her ancestral home? I'm sure it is what Littlefinger wants. I think that the season will end on this as the question. Not that they marry, but will they marry will be the season cliffhanger. I disagree that the story the show is telling is that they are "emphasizing Sansa's independence". What part of "I did what I had to do" is showing independence? She's gone from captive of the Lannister's forced into marriage, to, for all practical purposes, a captive of Littlefinger's 'forced' (did what I had to do) into marriage at his behest, to escape and running to her brother who feels he has to take care of her, and she relying on that care - and sending Brienne, who at least pledged herself to Sansa - away. All in all, if she's being "independent" she's making a hell of a lot of bad choices. And I'm pretty certain she'll say she'll marry Littlefinger for that army. Of course, from the moment Sansa walked down the stairs in her black feather dress and said "I know what you want", the show has taken a completely different turn with Sansa. At least plot wise. Her characterization has always been wishy-washy. So now the show is trying to make the best of the mess they stuck the character in. And, of course, "I know what you want" will come back into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 36 minutes ago, RhaeBee said: In this position, nobody in their right mind would ever want Sansa as a ruler, especially that she doesn't know how to lead an army and her diplomatic and political skills are still quite questionable (at least I have not seen anything that would prove she's become the ultimate female Tywin Lannister). If I were the north, I wouldn't raise my banners for Sansa. Rescuing Rickon the true heir to Winterfell from Ramsay on the other hand is something I might raise them. Absolutely. Her lying does not equal political good sense. Sounds like she's scrambling, trying to get them to say "yes" by any means necessary. This still is supposed to be a traditional medieval society. No way with Jon right there, a proven male leader of men and armies (Night's Watch and Hardhome) with men to vouch for his prowess like Tormund, do we have Sansa as a queen. She might be able to sew lovely fur cloaks, design feather dresses, and embroider well, but that makes her a dress designer, not a leader. And that is all Sansa has been shown to do well yet on the show. That and lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarkar Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 6 hours ago, dariopatke said: Someone confronts her about being a Bolton. She said she was pressured to go to marriage and she was and will be a Stark even if she married Ramsay. This is huge problem, if they proclaim her Queen in the North than in the eyes of Old Gods Ramsay is the rightful King, in the eyes of Seven one might claim it is Tyrion. This is why I dont think she will be Queen, maybe they proclaim Bran, Rickon or even Jon, I see her as least likely candidate. They wont be retaking Winterfell for Sansa. Remember who Ramsay has hostage? Rickon... They will recruit an army, to retake Winterfel in Rickon's name as he is the rightful Heir to Winterfel (as far as they know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarkar Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 48 minutes ago, RhaeBee said: If I were the north, I wouldn't raise my banners for Sansa. Rescuing Rickon the true heir to Winterfell from Ramsay on the other hand is something I might raise them. This... Jon & Sansa have little, (if any claim to WF). Rickon on the other hand has a very strong claim. Jon has some pull as the previous LC on the NW, and has an army of Wildlings following him (good, bad??). The key is that Jon AND Sansa are together. If it were just Jon, or Just Sansa, i dont see anyone helping, but together they can give a pretty compelling argument. Sansa as the blood, Jon as the leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 48 minutes ago, Karmarni said: I think you completely missed my sarcasm. The power comes from the Vale army and Littlefinger. The question becomes, is Sansa willing to sell herself out for an army to take her ancestral home? I'm sure it is what Littlefinger wants. I think that the season will end on this as the question. Not that they marry, but will they marry will be the season cliffhanger. I disagree that the story the show is telling is that they are "emphasizing Sansa's independence". What part of "I did what I had to do" is showing independence? She's gone from captive of the Lannister's forced into marriage, to, for all practical purposes, a captive of Littlefinger's 'forced' (did what I had to do) into marriage at his behest, to escape and running to her brother who feels he has to take care of her, and she relying on that care - and sending Brienne, who at least pledged herself to Sansa - away. All in all, if she's being "independent" she's making a hell of a lot of bad choices. And I'm pretty certain she'll say she'll marry Littlefinger for that army. Of course, from the moment Sansa walked down the stairs in her black feather dress and said "I know what you want", the show has taken a completely different turn with Sansa. At least plot wise. Her characterization has always been wishy-washy. So now the show is trying to make the best of the mess they stuck the character in. And, of course, "I know what you want" will come back into play. I think it makes much sense, but I'd add she has one more option if she wants to work arounf Littlefinger: the Vale lords and Sweetrobin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Night Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Reekon is alive, so far, so whether Sansa is a Bolton or a Stark or a Lannister wouldn't matter, or at least shouldn't. Seems to me they would be building support to retake Winterfell and free their liege lord, not to install Sansa or Jon as the Stark in Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenysBee Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 35 minutes ago, Karmarni said: Absolutely. Her lying does not equal political good sense. Sounds like she's scrambling, trying to get them to say "yes" by any means necessary. This still is supposed to be a traditional medieval society. No way with Jon right there, a proven male leader of men and armies (Night's Watch and Hardhome) with men to vouch for his prowess like Tormund, do we have Sansa as a queen. She might be able to sew lovely fur cloaks, design feather dresses, and embroider well, but that makes her a dress designer, not a leader. And that is all Sansa has been shown to do well yet on the show. That and lie. Exactly, and even her lying served only one purpose so far: Littlefinger. So I still don't see Sansa as a player. I do see her thinking she is a player however. And that can backfire big time as it backfired in the case of Cersei before. And yes, this being a medieval story is exactly why I'm strongly against the whole 21st century, girl power, Queen Sansa wardeness of the North end game. I do want a happy ending for Sansa, but in my little mind that consist of a brave and gentle and strong man, ginger kids, lemon cakes and designer dresses. Just my opinion of course. 21 minutes ago, Xarkar said: This... Jon & Sansa have little, (if any claim to WF). Rickon on the other hand has a very strong claim. Jon has some pull as the previous LC on the NW, and has an army of Wildlings following him (good, bad??). The key is that Jon AND Sansa are together. If it were just Jon, or Just Sansa, i dont see anyone helping, but together they can give a pretty compelling argument. Sansa as the blood, Jon as the leader. Yeah, Jon AND Sansa have a good chance convincing the north to raise their banners for Rickon and Winterfell. Together they have the base of an army, they have stark blood and leadership skills, and they have a legit cause (Rickon). Jon And Sansa have little chance convincing the north to raise their banners for Jon And Sansa neither of whom has an actual claim on Winterfell though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 1 hour ago, RhaeBee said: Wow, so many ideas and assumptions. 1 hour ago, RhaeBee said: She is not alligable for marriage to seal an alliance with a supportive northern house as she is bound to house Bolton and Lannister by marriage. In this position, nobody in their right mind would ever want Sansa as a ruler, especially that she doesn't know how to lead an army and her diplomatic and political skills are still quite questionable (at least I have not seen anything that would prove she's become the ultimate female Tywin Lannister). And yet you are making lot of assumptions, who said that she must become Tywin to take back her home? nobody said anything about her becoming a ruler, we are speaking about Sansa/Jon and winterfell, her skills are questionable for you but not for many people, I'm with the starks, any stark who will try to take back Winterfell and save Rickon I'm with him, you are assuming that because Sansa is a girl she should shut her mouth and let her brother Rickon die??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenysBee Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Just now, Future Null Infinity said: And yet you are making lot of assumptions, who said that she must become Tywin to take back her home? nobody said anything about her becoming a ruler, we are speaking about Sansa/Jon and winterfell, her skills are questionable for you but not for many people, I'm with the starks, any stark who will try to take back Winterfell and save Rickon I'm with him, you are assuming that because Sansa is a girl she should shut her mouth and let her brother Rickon dies??? Erm... what? Who said there was anything wrong with assumptions? I'm all for assumptions, that's why I keep sharing mine in the topics. nobody said she has to be Tywin, but Tywin was the master manipulator who could outplay everybody and so brining him up as an example seemed sensible to me. I could have said Littlefinger too. And I brought up the role of ruler because some of the posts I skimmed through mentioned the possibility of Sansa becoming Queen in the North or ruler of the North and her marriages might be problematic in such case. I was never crazy about the Starks, but I do want them to take back Winterfell, I just don't think that Sansa alone can take back Winterfell because of all the reasons I pointed out in my first post. And who said anybody should let Rickon die? I said myself that Rickon is the very reason I would raise my banners if I were the north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 15 minutes ago, RhaeBee said: I was never crazy about the Starks, but I do want them to take back Winterfell, I just don't think that Sansa alone can take back Winterfell because of all the reasons I pointed out in my first post. I really don't think you fully understand the situation of the starks right now, the starks must rally the northerners, bran is in the north, rickon is a prisoner, Jon is a bastard (you like it or not, it's the reality), the only stark who can get the support of the north is Sansa, does it require the intelligence of tywin or littlefinger to do so? no Fast forward to post-boltons era, bran is in the north, Jon is a bastard, I don't wanna to be kicked out from the forum because something I will say about rickon, the only remaining person who can rule Winterfell is Sansa, is ruling needs extraordinary skills? no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 53 minutes ago, RhaeBee said: Exactly, and even her lying served only one purpose so far: Littlefinger. So I still don't see Sansa as a player. I do see her thinking she is a player however. And that can backfire big time as it backfired in the case of Cersei before. And yes, this being a medieval story is exactly why I'm strongly against the whole 21st century, girl power, Queen Sansa wardeness of the North end game. I do want a happy ending for Sansa, but in my little mind that consist of a brave and gentle and strong man, ginger kids, lemon cakes and designer dresses. Just my opinion of course. Yeah, Jon AND Sansa have a good chance convincing the north to raise their banners for Rickon and Winterfell. Together they have the base of an army, they have stark blood and leadership skills, and they have a legit cause (Rickon). Jon And Sansa have little chance convincing the north to raise their banners for Jon And Sansa neither of whom has an actual claim on Winterfell though. 'Jon shrugged. 'Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. ... I did not make the rules, little sister.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Karmarni said: I think you completely missed my sarcasm. The power comes from the Vale army and Littlefinger. The question becomes, is Sansa willing to sell herself out for an army to take her ancestral home? I'm sure it is what Littlefinger wants. I think that the season will end on this as the question. Not that they marry, but will they marry will be the season cliffhanger. I disagree that the story the show is telling is that they are "emphasizing Sansa's independence". What part of "I did what I had to do" is showing independence? She's gone from captive of the Lannister's forced into marriage, to, for all practical purposes, a captive of Littlefinger's 'forced' (did what I had to do) into marriage at his behest, to escape and running to her brother who feels he has to take care of her, and she relying on that care - and sending Brienne, who at least pledged herself to Sansa - away. All in all, if she's being "independent" she's making a hell of a lot of bad choices. And I'm pretty certain she'll say she'll marry Littlefinger for that army. Of course, from the moment Sansa walked down the stairs in her black feather dress and said "I know what you want", the show has taken a completely different turn with Sansa. At least plot wise. Her characterization has always been wishy-washy. So now the show is trying to make the best of the mess they stuck the character in. And, of course, "I know what you want" will come back into play. Well, I am not the only one that missed the sarcasm. I do agree that it is what LF wants, but Sansa may be having different plans. As for independence, it was her choice. As idiotic as the writers made it (and Sansa herself said it to Baelish in episode 5) it was her decision. She did it on her own. Being independent means having the right to make even wrong choices. Being independent doesn't necessarily means smartness. Cersei, Ned, Theon, Robb... All of them independently acted and suffered because of that. As for characterization, I think Martin told them that the story is "pawn to player" but the entire tie up to the North was done so badly that it made it all quite questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said: Sorry but I was speaking about her marriage to Tyrion Lannister That was thrown out and yes. She was a captive against her will with the lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarkar Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 If for some reason people were to follow Sansa as "queen / ruler etc" I don think i see the marriage being a problem. She plans to take back WF and kill Ramsay in the process (that seems clear). If they are concerned about her marriage to Ramsay, they have already come to terms that the marriage with Tyrion did not count. (Otherwise they would still think she is marreid to Tyrion and the Ramsay wedding was not real). If Ramsay dies, who is the next Leader of House bolton? I assume that would technically be Sansa as she is married to him, and they ahve no heir. So if they retake WF and kill Ramsay, doesnt she become ruler of the dreadfort and possibly WF (If Rickon dies). All i am saying is if the plan is to kill Ramsay, then why does her Marriage matter. Once he is dead she could do whatever widows do in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenysBee Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 28 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said: I really don't think you fully understand the situation of the starks right now, the starks must rally the northerners, bran is in the north, rickon is a prisoner, Jon is a bastard (you like it or not, it's the reality), the only stark who can get the support of the north is Sansa, does it require the intelligence of tywin or littlefinger to do so? no Fast forward to post-boltons, bran is in the north, Jon is a bastard, I don't wanna to be kicked out from the forum because something I will say about rickon, the only remaining person who can rule Winterfell is Sansa, is ruling needs extraordinary skills? no I think I do, but thanks anyways. There isn't really such thing as Starks at this point. There is Sansa and Jon and Rickon who is a prisoner. Sansa and Jon are trying to rally the North to take back Winterfell and free Rickon. Jon is a bastard, as you pointed out too, and Sansa is a girl with two husbands. And with Rickon being a prisoner it falls to them to travel from lord to lord to ask for support and soldiers, neither of them have a claim on Winterfell as a stark. That's why I said and still say that in my understanding the North wouldn't rise for either of them. Of course Sansa doesn't need Tywin or Littlefinger level intelligence to travel from lord to lord and beg for support to help her and Jon to save Rickon, the rightful heir go Winterfell. as I said before, my original post was about the north proclaiming sansa ruler and why I do not believe that is any likely. Sansa would need Tywin or Littlefinger level intelligence for that. Because obviously, the North would just proclaim her queen of the north for her pretty face, she would need to prove herself somehow and that would take either high intelligence or military leadership (or the combination of both). And the way I see it she lacks both at this point. Fastforward to post Boltons. If Rickon lives, he is lord of Winterfell until Bran shows up if he does. Jon is a bastard, Sansa is a woman. If Rickon dies and Sansa manages to have her still existing marriage to Tyrion nullified based on lack of consummation, they still either have to look for Bran or proclaim Bran dead or Bran has to die for Winterfell to go to Sansa. And if or when that happens, Sansa will marry someone and that person will rule Winterfell, because it's not 2016 in the story. And yes, ruling needs skills. Look at Robert, look at Cersei, look at Daenerys, look at Joffrey, look at Tommen. The famous sufferings of the Stark family and Sansa's unfortunate fate don't automatically make her the lord of Winterfell/queen of the north or a good ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said: But from the northerners perspective they don't know the real story and they don't know if this marriage was forced or not .....Right, sure thing. The Northern lords, all of whom knew that at least Sansa was a hostage of the Lannisters. You really gonna tell me that they cant put two and two together that marrying a member of the family that was fighting her family, was done against her will? Give.Me.A.Break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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