How did the Tarly's get Heartsbane?

[Colonel Green]

55 minutes ago, tugela said:

They had it for 500 years as well, just like the Tarlys. They would have got it at the same time, most likely as a gift for swearing loyalty to the king. Presumably at around that time Valyerian steel was being imported to Westeros as a consequence of refugees fleeing the Doom. They would have been selling off their valuables to survive, and that would have included their swords. Most of the swords likely date back to that time, and have been passed down within families since. The swords would have had special value, because after the last of the Doom refugees sold their swords, no more would have appeared on the market, thus accounting for their present day rarity. But there would have been a period when the market would have been flooded with them, and would have been more affordable as a result.

The Mormonts were one of the principal families of the north, and were given Bear Island by the Starks. They would have existed prior to that.

Bear Island is about the same size as the Iron Islands, and likely has a population of similar size. The main difference between the two is that the Iron Islanders made a living by raiding while Bear Islanders made a living by fishing. Both are equally poor due to a lack of resources, but Bear Islanders are more peaceful.

There are only a few hundred Valyrian steel swords in Westeros, most of them dating to before the Doom, from the dates we've been given.  There's no indication that their arrival dates to that point, nor would only a few hundred items be enough to create a shortage sufficient to make them that affordable.  Otherwise you'd expect, e.g., the Manderlys to have one.

Nothing has indicated that Bear Island has anything close to the population of the Iron Islands.  The Mormonts aren't even in the top tier of Stark vassals, numerically.

[tugela]

18 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There are only a few hundred Valyrian steel swords in Westeros, most of them dating to before the Doom, from the dates we've been given.  There's no indication that their arrival dates to that point, nor would only a few hundred items be enough to create a shortage sufficient to make them that affordable.  Otherwise you'd expect, e.g., the Manderlys to have one.

Nothing has indicated that Bear Island has anything close to the population of the Iron Islands.  The Mormonts aren't even in the top tier of Stark vassals, numerically.

They are supposedly about five hundred years old, and this would be a "round number" from a historical point of view - not very precise. The Targeryens have been in Westeros for about three centuries, but they had been at Dragonstone for at least a hundred years before that. The arrival of Valyrian steel in Westeros approximates with the Valyrian doom, so it is reasonable to conclude that the two events were related.

If you had a flood of refugees arriving in Westeros with few possessions of value, one of the things they would be selling would be their swords. So you would have limited to no availability, then suddenly a relatively large number on the market (which would significantly reduce the price, making them relatively affordable to anyone with reasonable amounts of money). Then, once that supply dried up, and no more were being produced, the number on the market would dwindle to nothing and the value would skyrocket.

Basic economics

[Bright Blue Eyes]

More like the production of Valyrian steel stopping with the Doom, cause there was no Valyria anymore.
 

That's a hard limit for the minimal age of any Valyrian steel.

[Free Northman Reborn]

People attributing the proliferation of Valyrian steel blades among Westerosi lords to the Doom, have economics backwards. The Doom would have caused the price of Valyrian steel blades to skyrocket to unimaginable heights. Before the Doom the blades would have been far cheaper and more easily obtainable. After the Doom, they became a finite resource, with no new ones being produced again. Ever.

Whatever the price of a Valyrian steel blade was before the Doom, it would have shot up tenfold, or a hundredfold after the destruction of Valyria.

So why do so many Valyrian steel swords date to the period around 400-500 years ago? I would say that is when the Valyrians established a trading post on Dragonstone, and started selling blades to the lords of Westeros on a regular basis. The Targaryens arrived on Dragonstone about 12 years before the Doom, I believe. But before them other Valyrians had established an outpost there around 100 years previously, if I recall correctly.

That is the most likely source of the increase in Valyrian blades arriving in Westeros around that time. Of course, there would have been far older Valyrian blades already in Westeros at that time. But those would have been rarer, and would have belonged to only the greatest of Westerosi lords. Those who could afford to send ships all the way to the Free cities or Valyria itself to acquire the prized swords.

[Colonel Green]

36 minutes ago, tugela said:

If you had a flood of refugees arriving in Westeros with few possessions of value, one of the things they would be selling would be their swords.

There wasn't a flood of Valyrian refugees in Westeros, though.  Indeed, from all accounts Valyria was immediately incinerated and nobody survived (if anybody was going to, it would have been the dragonlords, and the Targaryens had the only remaining dragons).  And they wouldn't have gone to Westeros anyway, with their colonies still around.

[tugela]

33 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There wasn't a flood of Valyrian refugees in Westeros, though.  Indeed, from all accounts Valyria was immediately incinerated and nobody survived (if anybody was going to, it would have been the dragonlords, and the Targaryens had the only remaining dragons).  And they wouldn't have gone to Westeros anyway, with their colonies still around.

Valyria was an empire. Not everyone would have physically been in Valyria itself when the place went up in flames. Those who were in other places would have been left with no where to go. Hence they would have become refugees. A lot of these people would have gathered at Dragonstone and formed the backbone of the Targaryen army, but many would simply have gone on directly to Westeros by ship on their own accord.

[Colonel Green]

1 minute ago, tugela said:

Valyria was an empire. Not everyone would have physically been in Valyria itself when the place went up in flames. Those who were in other places would have been left with no where to go. Hence they would have become refugees. A lot of these people would have gathered at Dragonstone and formed the backbone of the Targaryen army, but many would simply have gone on directly to Westeros by ship on their own accord.

Again, as I said, there's no indication that any Valyrian refugees went to Westeros.  The extended Valyrian colonial network still existed, e.g., Volantis, and Westeros was considered an uninteresting backwater.

[gregg22]

I think everyone is missing the point. House Tarley has a significant ancestral sword because so that Randyll Tarley could tell Samwell (a main POV character) that he will never weild it.

All ancestral swords of significance in this story are Valeryan steel.

Like everything else about House Tarley, it's built around Sam's character.

[Winter's Cold]

Maybe they have Heartsbane because they're a martial house. Their motto is "First into Battle" and their sigil is a hunstman. Due to their position, they are also one of the marcher lords that were heavily involved in the numerous conflicts between the Reach and Dorne. Thus it makes sense that Heartsbane was either acquired in a war or given as a gift by a Garderner King. 

[Waters Gate]

It's interresting i must say that there are plenty of larger houses that lack a ancestral valyrian sword whereas the existing ones are often distributed from high upto fairly low. (like Areo Hotah)

It is to say, valyrian swords are something mroe than just weapons. They are symbols of tradition and continuity. Perhaps it might be so that many of the larger houses that lack valyrian swords also lack a longer history, despite claiming perhaps otherwise. it might be logical that houses claim to be very old, there is something that justifies youre rule in the idea "weve been here forever" expecially in the eyes of uneducated masses. Perhaps that lower tier people have valyrian swords is more indication of them possibly having had a higher status earlier in history, while non Valyrian sword owning houses claiming to have been around millenia might actually have been more recent entrants. Atleast the Baratheons don't need to make any clains for their lack of Valyrian steel sword or origin, and the Tyrels, Greyjoy's and Tully's rose to power due to Argon's conquest too. Perhaps though there are many other houses claiming to be older that by indication of not owning a Valyrian steel sword are not so old at all.

 

[Shireen Purratheon]

The idea of the Tarlys not being a major family doesn't hit for me. Before Aegon landed, there were seven kingdoms. Each of those kingdoms would be propped up with some powerful banner men. Aegon had the lord paramount of each region as his most powerful lords. But the previous kingdoms would have existed on a smaller scale. 

I think it's safe to call the Royces a major house in this period, as well as the likes of the Tarths, the Yronwoods, Estermonts, Daynes, Harlaws, and so forth. 

In the case of the North and the Reach, we happen to know a little more about the local feudal structure. 

We know that in the kingdom of the North, the Manderlys, the Boltons, the Karstarks, the Umbers, and the Dustins are definitely major houses. This is more apparent if you look regionally rather than continentally. Like imagine if you were Ned looking at your bannermen during the Rebellion, or an old King of Winter assessing your kingdom. 

Similarly, in the Reach, they've got the Hightowers, the Redwynes, the Tarlys, the Rowans, the Florents, and Peakes in the past. Look at who Mace Tyrell picks for his core group. Like Robb has Roose, the Greatjon, and Rickard Karstark as the major northern lords he rides with and takes council from, Mace has Paxter Redwyne, Mathis Rowan, and Randyll Tarly. Clearly there's a lot of esteem there. In the Rebellion a decade and a half ago, Randyll led Mace's van, and he was pretty young then. He must have gotten that opportunity from somewhere. Has a Tarly married into house Targaryen? Probably not, but neither has an Umber or a Bolton or an Estermont or an Yronwood. But all those families are still major. 

But if I had to guess, I'd say the Mormonts got Longclaw as a gift from the Starks. I would not call Bear Island equal to the Iron Islands, but maybe an Iron Island. Plus the isles have mines and herds in addition to their fish and ships. All Bear Islamd has are fish, timber, and bears. 

[Daena the Defiant]

On 5/31/2016 at 1:01 PM, Duncan I Targaryen said:

Horn Hill was quite impressive - makes me wonder what Highgarden looks like if the Tarlys are the no. 2 House in The Reach. 

That's show Horn Hill. That wasn't even a castle, but some gigantic English style country mansion. It had no fortifications, walls, turrets, nothing. It was lame and made no sense even in the show's quasi-medieval setting.

The Tarlys are an upper level noble house of the Reach, which is the most prosperous and populated of the Seven Kingdoms. It is an agricultural powerhouse (notice how so many of the Reach houses have botanical, floral or agricultural names and blazons? They are the breadbasket of the Seven Kindoms). In a medieval content, agriculture = wealth (Medieval France was the superpower of Europe), so to be an upper level noble house in one of the most robust and populated kingdoms means that they are very wealthy indeed. Check out House Florent, probably on the same tier as House Tarly, which was able to bankroll and provide most of the military manpower supporting Stannis - all those "Queen's Men" were Florent supplied retainers and troops.

Short answer - The Tarlys are near the top, but the Florents (see above), the Redwynes (they have a fleet!) or the Hightowers (they have their own city!) are probably Highgarden's most powerful vassal. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Short answer - The Tarlys are near the top, but the Florents (see above), the Redwynes (they have a fleet!) or the Hightowers (they have their own city!) are probably Highgarden's most powerful vassal. 

Easily Hightower.

"What is Lord Hightower doing?" Sam blurted. "My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden's other bannermen."

 

[StarkofWinterfell]

On 5/31/2016 at 0:25 PM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

"You make Valyrian Swords? I want one, here's my credit rating. It will be finished next year? Alright, I'll be back then." Heard in Valyria, 500 years ago.

 

There are still more than 200 Valyrian steel swords in Westeros. Tarly is defintely part of the top 200 houses, even if they are closer to 200 than to 1, and has been for millennia.

Bear in mind that it was quoted as "blades" and not swords. This opens up the possibility for daggers, spear-tips, and other weapons. We do know that there are various VS weapons apart from swords.

In terms of actual swords, we only know of a few.

[CJ McLannister]

Maybe a Tarly saved someone from a zombie once.  I've heard that's a good way to get a Valyrian steel sword gifted to you.

[Bloodmane]

For obtaining a Valyrian steel sword (Vss) there are two distinct scenarios:

I. Pre-Doom: the Ferrari scenario:

While Valyria existed it was possible to purchase a Vss. It probably was an exclusive merchandise, only the richest could afford it and there could have been other criteria to be fullfild of witch we know little. But it was possible to obtain one. A lord or a dinasty could realistically aspire to get it. Some did not, maybe they wanted to fortify their castle intead/first, or they wanted a nicely crafted armour, a special breed of horses or whatever. Most of the Vss were owned by the richest and most powerfull, but not all (maybe someone recieved it as a gift, or stole it, or "paid the iron price" for it). And not every single rich lord posessed one, maybe in time they would have (as hapened let' say with steel armour). 

II. Post-Doom: the Leonardo painting scenario:

After the doom there where only a limited number of Vss in the world. To get one was not about money and power (well, not just about money and power...) but about right circumstances. If you inherited one, good for you, otherwise not even a Lannister could get one without a considerable amount of luck.

[Light a wight tonight]

A number of second-tier Houses have Valyrian-steel weapons. We don't know how any of them were obtained. No family records are cited. And even if there were records, we know from Sam's research in the library at Castle Black that those are not always accurate.

[RumHam]

20 hours ago, Waters Gate said:

It's interresting i must say that there are plenty of larger houses that lack a ancestral valyrian sword whereas the existing ones are often distributed from high upto fairly low. (like Areo Hotah)

Hotah doesn't have a Valyrian Steel sword. Dude would never cheat on his ax. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Valyrian swords can be acquired by various means. I remember one sword (Red Rain maybe? I am not a fan of the wiki) that was taken in combat from the original owner and now it is the possession of an ironborn House. Since valyrian swords are highly appreciated, families pass down the sword to their descendant, until it is bought/taken/stolen. I'm not sure of how many swords came to Westeros (they appear to be too expensive for even a very rich House to buy) but they tend to circulate around. Longclaw is now Jon's etc.

[Ser Endipitous]

TWOIAF states that there are 227 Valyrian steel swords in the 7 Kingdoms. Not that hard to see how one of the most powerful Reach houses got their hands on one.