Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Frejac]

1 minute ago, Pandean said:

Because, logistically, it wouldn't.

They had plans, yes. But Davos and Jon's plans fundamentally underestimated Ramsay and Sansa tried to get that across and failed.

Jon tried to make Ramsay angry. Sansa said that Ramsay is the one who "sets traps", not them. Ramsay sent Rickon out solely to set the trap that would make Jon charge alone, thus all of their battle plans right there were screwed.

Literally didn't Davos or Tormund say "Jon, don't" or something like that right before that happened?
 

We're never given confirmation if Sansa knows the Vale lords will show up with certainty. Even so, her revealing them to Jon in the beginning would have most likely ended the same way because all the plans they had fell apart the moment Jon charged.

 

It's one thing to plan a battle--it's another to actually follow the plan. Jon was too sure of himself and was fooled into charging. By that time, even the knowledge of the Vale's Army, they would've just been more fodder for the wall of the dead.

The fact that the plans Jon made fell apart when he charged because of Rickon in no way means that the battle plans they would have theoretically made with the Vale would also fall apart due to the same action.

Why?

Because, as I keep saying, the best way to use the Vale would be to use them in the exact same way this episode did.  A surprise charge to crush the Boltons.  That does not require Jon's army follow any particular plan other than be there and get Ramsay on the field.  They did that.

Jon's charge would certainly have cost lives, but not nearly as many as it did here.  The Vale would have been close by, and would have been able to react accordingly.  They could have charged in sooner and saved lives.  Because of Sansa lying to Jon, the two armies never coordinated and this was not a possibility.

In the battle as it played out Jon's inability to detach himself from his emotions and Sansa's lying both cost lives, but I would argue that Sansa's actions cost more.

If the battle had played out the way that I described it could have, the blame would rest with Jon and not Sansa.

 

Also, to answer the "Jon, don't" bit, that happened when Jon was already out on the field next to Rickon's dead body.  If I recall correctly, it was something Tormund said kind of under his breath.

[DarkerStar]

7 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Because, logistically, it wouldn't.

They had plans, yes. But Davos and Jon's plans fundamentally underestimated Ramsay and Sansa tried to get that across and failed.

Jon tried to make Ramsay angry. Sansa said that Ramsay is the one who "sets traps", not them. Ramsay sent Rickon out solely to set the trap that would make Jon charge alone, thus all of their battle plans right there were screwed.

Literally didn't Davos or Tormund say "Jon, don't" or something like that right before that happened?
 

We're never given confirmation if Sansa knows the Vale lords will show up with certainty. Even so, her revealing them to Jon in the beginning would have most likely ended the same way because all the plans they had fell apart the moment Jon charged.

 

It's one thing to plan a battle--it's another to actually follow the plan. Jon was too sure of himself and was fooled into charging. By that time, even the knowledge of the Vale's Army, they would've just been more fodder for the wall of the dead.

I don't think they underestimated him. They were stuck in a bad situation with bad information. They thought they had no more options. Sansa had another option that she could have given them. Allowing them to go into that battle without that knowledge is messed up. Sansa appeared to ride up to the battle with the Vale Lords. She had to know something.

[LifeRuiner]

3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

And let's not even get into Arya is a fucking sociopath and a slight brat with mental issues who is still viewed as some cute little tomboy

Why are you dragging Arya into this?! It's not like people liking her at Sansa's expense.

[Future Null Infinity]

I was waiting for my girl since season 4 

[Mladen]

All right, that was awesome... Now, let we clarify couple of things.

1. Jon LED his men into slaughter. It wasn't Sansa, it was Jon. She was the one who told him to wait, she was the one who advised him to show some restrain, but he didn't. At the end, it was her sacrifice (LF will undoubtedly want to collect his prize) that won this damn battle. This is Catelyn and Robb all over again. 

2. Sansa DID care for Rickon, but she also knew Ramsay. She knew Ramsay would have never given them Rickon. The mere fact that Jon is not aware of that is beyond me. The moment Rickon entered WF, he was good as dead, and Sansa was the one being smart about it.

5 minutes ago, tormund's beard said:

i agree she let thousands of men die

We really should not blame the guy who did opposite of what she said (wait and don't play games). Jon not listening to Sansa actually killed thousands.

5 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I appreciate the fact that you think that, but now I think that Sansa is perfectly willing to USE Jon again to her own ends.  She could be playing him big time.  Jon is an odd character in the story in that he is a believer in goodness, oddly enough.  When Sansa was a young girl all about handsome knights and lemon cakes, well she has left that all far behind, understandably so.  Somehow, Jon has retained a certain trust in people, not all people, but he respects and loves the people he trusts.  Sansa, if she ever had the quality, has lost it. Or she has lost how to know how to trust.  

And what ends that may be? All I hear are these manipulations and goals and from episode to episode we have quite the opposite. Let we not forget that she basically offered herself to return WF.

How anyone can argue that Sansa never trusted people? Half of her story is about learning not to be so open with people.

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

Lol same. It takes a special kind of maliciousness to read Sansa this way. The fact that people are calling her smile over Ramsay's death an "evil smile", when she has more than earned the right to show satisfaction over his death, of ALL PEOPLE, tells you all you need to know. 

Well, he does. The """lie""" about the Vale was overblown by fandom from the start. Jon understands why she did it and is showing more tenderness towards her than he ever has. And from a writing standpoint this plot line was clearly never about setting up a wedge between those two it was just about creating artificial suspense about the outcome of the battle. Some people may not like that but there you go. 

I'm also not convinced yet Jon didn't know the Vale was coming because the spoiler dude who literally described the battle with perfect accuracy weeks ago, including the scene in the WF courtyard with Jon, Sansa and Ramsay, also said there would be a follow up scene where Jon sees LF arrive and says "you're late". A scene which appears to have been cut for time. We'll probably get confirmation that he knew about them in episode 10. 

Yes. This.

2 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

Yes. I see that people are sticking to that first impression they had of Sansa when she was a child. I see that Sansa has really evolved. She is more sophisticated, bold, and astute.  This season really highlighted her ability to read people and "play the game" accordingly. I think she does have a darker edge, but it will not be aimed at Jon. 

Yeah. Sansa could start becoming Arya or Dany 2.0 or being everyone's ideal perfect character and they'd still cling on their first impression.

 

TBH I have a theory--the first time we get an impression through Sansa in the book is through Arya's eyes and Arya has some clear character bias. So when we read her chapters we automatically add that bias in.

The fact that people ignore character growth or chalk everything up to her being evil is really annoying. And she is darker than Jon is, but it's been proven time and time again that honor does nothing in this world besides get you killed.

[lakin1013]

I just want to observe all the posts now that claim only Sansa haters could see her actions as so poorly.  I don't hate Sansa at all and I thought this season I would really come to admire her.  Well, that has not happened yet.  I find her wanting in terms of ethics, morals, and the Stark code of behavior. 

[Bear Claw]

1 minute ago, DarkerStar said:

I don't think they underestimated him. They were stuck in a bad situation with bad information. They thought they had no more options. Sansa had another option that she could have given them. Allowing them to go into that battle without that knowledge is messed up. Sansa appeared to ride up to the battle with the Vale Lords. She had to know something.

I think they would have misused the Vale.  It is like someone who wins the lottery but still ends up broke. 

[Adam141414]

The way Sansa gave up on getting Rickon back alive is the pragmatism Jon, Robb and Ned never showed. She has truly learnt from her time with the likes of Ramsay, Littlefinger, the Lannisters about what it takes to win in the game of thrones. No more Stark naivety.

 

[Pandean]

Just now, lakin1013 said:

I just want to observe all the posts now that claim only Sansa haters could see her actions as so poorly.  I don't hate Sansa at all and I thought this season I would really come to admire her.  Well, that has not happened yet.  I find her wanting in terms of ethics, morals, and the Stark code of behavior.  

Unfortunately Ethics, Morals, and the Stark code of behavior usually end up with someone dying.

[Bear Claw]

Just now, Adam141414 said:

The way Sansa gave up on getting Rickon back alive is the pragmatism Jon, Robb and Ned never showed. She has truly learnt from her time with the likes of Ramsay, Littlefinger, the Lannisters about what it takes to win in the game of thrones. No more Stark naivety.

 

Yes, remember Bran's Winterfell vision. His grandfather told them to win!

[tormund's beard]

 

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

All right, that was awesome... Now, let we clarify couple of things.

1. Jon LED his men into slaughter. It wasn't Sansa, it was Jon. She was the one who told him to wait, she was the one who advised him to show some restrain, but he didn't. At the end, it was her sacrifice (LF will undoubtedly want to collect his prize) that won this damn battle. This is Catelyn and Robb all over again. 

2. Sansa DID care for Rickon, but she also knew Ramsay. She knew Ramsay would have never given them Rickon. The mere fact that Jon is not aware of that is beyond me. The moment Rickon entered WF, he was good as dead, and Sansa was the one being smart about it.

We really should not blame the guy who did opposite of what she said (wait and don't play games). Jon not listening to Sansa actually killed thousands.

And what ends that may be? All I hear are these manipulations and goals and from episode to episode we have quite the opposite. Let we not forget that she basically offered herself to return WF.

How anyone can argue that Sansa never trusted people? Half of her story is about learning not to be so open with people.

he is a fucking idiot, and she is either and idiot or going full darkside for not sharing crucial information with the guy planning the battle.

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, LifeRuiner said:

Why are you dragging Arya into this?! It's not like people liking her at Sansa's expense.

That was just a side little rant. Hence why I crossed it out. I've just found people to view Arya's progress in a very different light even though one could argue Arya has regressed verses progressed. Mentally anyway.

[Frejac]

4 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I just want to observe all the posts now that claim only Sansa haters could see her actions as so poorly.  I don't hate Sansa at all and I thought this season I would really come to admire her.  Well, that has not happened yet.  I find her wanting in terms of ethics, morals, and the Stark code of behavior.  

So much this.

I was really looking forward to Sansa this season, and loved her in the beginning.  Taking Brienne's oath, reuniting with Jon, convincing him they needed to retake Winterfell.  It was all great.

And then the Littlefinger stuff happened.  And then they lying.

[Pandean]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

All right, that was awesome... Now, let we clarify couple of things.

1. Jon LED his men into slaughter. It wasn't Sansa, it was Jon. She was the one who told him to wait, she was the one who advised him to show some restrain, but he didn't. At the end, it was her sacrifice (LF will undoubtedly want to collect his prize) that won this damn battle. This is Catelyn and Robb all over again. 

2. Sansa DID care for Rickon, but she also knew Ramsay. She knew Ramsay would have never given them Rickon. The mere fact that Jon is not aware of that is beyond me. The moment Rickon entered WF, he was good as dead, and Sansa was the one being smart about it.

We really should not blame the guy who did opposite of what she said (wait and don't play games). Jon not listening to Sansa actually killed thousands.

And what ends that may be? All I hear are these manipulations and goals and from episode to episode we have quite the opposite. Let we not forget that she basically offered herself to return WF.

How anyone can argue that Sansa never trusted people? Half of her story is about learning not to be so open with people.

This.

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Exactly. She knew they wouldn't listen--she tried--so she kept it a secret. Also, there was no way for her to know if the Vale forces would come and arrive on time--if they'd come at all.

 

Jon, bless his heart, is not the best battle commander and he easily allowed himself to fall into every one of Ramsay's traps. Having more men wouldn't have changed that. He lost the advantage when he solo charged at Ramsay's army. Ramsay made him angry and he paid the price for it via his men's lives. When Jon charged, his men followed, so it wouldn't matter if the Vale army had been there or they knew about them--if Sansa knew for sure they were coming or not--they would've been wasted as Jon had forgone any strategy when Rickon was killed.

~snipped~

Either way; Sansa revealing the Vale might come to their aid wouldn't change anything because the battle would still happen the next day and Jon and Davos weren't going to listen to her when she explained what Ramsay would do.

 

Tv Jon may be an emo fuck, but that is the showrunners fault. Even then, he does have military skills from all the way back growing up with the military men at Winterfell. Something that being a bastard he actually benefited from.

Jon did not "solo charge" at Ramsay. He di dnot let Ramsay get him worked up and angry. Jon rode out to save his little brother who he still had all the love and respect for as Rickon was the heir to Winterfell as well as his kid brother. That is what made Jon ride... to intercept his brother while taking his own life at risk while doing so.

If Sansa had not lied to Jon, and Davos at this point, and told them about the Vale, then they could have, and would have, made other plans knwoing they had massive back up on the the way. Maybe strategically placing the Vale or themselves in the  areas around Winterfell, you know, the lands that Jon knows as if it were his home or something. They could have delayed until the Vale showed up. They could have done many other things different... better. But no, we were treated to the very obvious rush of good guys to save the day at the last minute.

I was sitting there with my husband literally guess the dialogue and events that were coming next and I got 98% of it each and every time. The show is that predictable. I'm done with the shit show.

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

Jon putting the Mormont shield into Ramsay's throat was amazing.

Sansa unleashing the hounds was carl tanner the legend of gin foooooooking alley perfect

[Adam141414]

Sansa needs to put Jon in his place as a Bastard. He is clearly not cut out for ruling. She needs to do a Lady Olenna and assume control of her house over the men in the family. 

[lakin1013]

7 minutes ago, Risto said:

All right, that was awesome... Now, let we clarify couple of things.

1. Jon LED his men into slaughter. It wasn't Sansa, it was Jon. She was the one who told him to wait, she was the one who advised him to show some restrain, but he didn't. 

When exactly did Sansa provide Jon with a reason to wait?  Other than saying "wait, wait, wait", what logical reasons did she offer.  She kept saying we don't have enough men and Jon pointed out that they tried and tried to get more.  WHAT A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY for Sansa to share.  But NOPE...

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Risto said:

All right, that was awesome... Now, let we clarify couple of things.

1. Jon LED his men into slaughter. It wasn't Sansa, it was Jon. She was the one who told him to wait, she was the one who advised him to show some restrain, but he didn't. At the end, it was her sacrifice (LF will undoubtedly want to collect his prize) that won this damn battle. This is Catelyn and Robb all over again. 

2. Sansa DID care for Rickon, but she also knew Ramsay. She knew Ramsay would have never given them Rickon. The mere fact that Jon is not aware of that is beyond me. The moment Rickon entered WF, he was good as dead, and Sansa was the one being smart about it.

We really should not blame the guy who did opposite of what she said (wait and don't play games). Jon not listening to Sansa actually killed thousands.

And what ends that may be? All I hear are these manipulations and goals and from episode to episode we have quite the opposite. Let we not forget that she basically offered herself to return WF.

How anyone can argue that Sansa never trusted people? Half of her story is about learning not to be so open with people.

Sorry, but 2 is not accurate. Last episode when Brienne was at Riverrun with the Blackfish, what Brienne was asking for was for the BF to help Sansa take Winterfell back. Not for Rickon, not for the Starks, not even for Jon. For Sansa. I knew Rickon would be dead then.