[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussions - First We Take King's Landing Edition

[Aryya Stark]

6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I see. Perhaps, it's the case that some viewers are about as sharp as a marble?

lol

[The Prince of Porne]

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's disturbing the number of comments one reads who approve of what Cersei is doing to her.

It is really fucked up, and says a lot about these people's morality. Not the first example of this, either: "This character is annoying, an asshole, or whatever (or a religious extremist in the case of Septa Unella), and I don't like them, so I'm going to cheer for them being tortured to death, burned, or whatever".... I know it's a TV show, not real life, but goddamn. The books want you to feel uncomfortable about things like this, and to think about questions like revenge vs. justice more deeply, but the show seems to just want shocking 'OMG' moments and for people to cheer on the badassery.

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, she fed a random master to her dragon just because she could? Or just to convince Hizzy to marry her? Or just to show what a badass she is? And then she became Firestarter and incinerated the khals who, despite all their "manly" talk, were just weak men. I'd say Ellaria and Khaleesi will get on famously. 

Yeah, if anything Firestarter and the Sand Pyschos probably recognized each other as kindred spirits.

The real question is whether Jon and the North should ever entertain any thoughts of joining forces with the pyromaniac dragon queen and her coalition of Dothraki, Ironborn, psychotic Dornish kinslayers, et. al. The Night King's victory might actually end up looking like the best option by the end of this.

 

[WinterPool Stark]

5 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I see. Perhaps, it's the case that some viewers are about as sharp as a marble?

A bit of a strange thing to say. Some people like Cersei and Cersei's revenge is enjoyable to them. That's their opinion and they're entitled to that opinion. It doesn't make them 'blunt in the head'

[Aryya Stark]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agree, this bothers me a lot, and not just because I like Daario.

In the books, Dany comes to regret the political marriage to Hizzy. She literally cries after they have sex on her wedding night, for Daario. Let's repeat that, she cries because she misses Daario, and feels like she's made a mistake. She just had sex with a guy for political reasons, and it felt terrible.

In the books, GRRM uses embracing sexuality, in a positive sense, expressing and exploring desires, as a way of personal empowerment for women and when they deny their sexuality, they lose this personal power. She just went through this, that's what Daario was about, embracing the dragon.

Riding Drogo, riding Daario, riding Drogon... it's about embracing who SHE IS. A dragon. She doesn't plant trees, she conquers. She's never going to be a silk queen. She's going to play it her way from now on. In the books. That's not to say she might not have some nominal marriage, but she's going to have a lover.

It makes ZERO sense that she leaves Daario behind. She thinks about him a dozen times in her last chapter, and explicitly associates him with embracing her dragon. When she turns back, away from Hizzy and Meereen, to Drogon, she pictures Daario sitting beside her. This is very clear. She learned something.

I do think that the things they had Daario tell her were like a lesson she's going to learn on the show, that this throne is not going to make her happy. But she already learned this in the books. It's not just Daario I'm talking about here, I'm objecting to this cold, empty bitch who is denying her sexuality for politics, that's not Dany.

That is D&D&C, though. They did the same thing with Sansa, they cut her sexual awakening with Sandor for a rape and revenge plot with Ramsay. Sansa didn't need this "lesson" either, she knows damn well that she's in touch with her sexuality, and what that means to her. It's how she's resisting LF, her thoughts of her own desires are how she fights him.

Anyway, here's what they had Daario tell her, and I note, they did not kill him off, so he still may play in to the story.

 

The entire plot was dumb....and the part she tells Tyrion that she felt nothing....sigh.

[OldGimletEye]

2 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

A bit of a strange thing to say. Some people like Cersei and Cersei's revenge is enjoyable to them. That's their opinion and they're entitled to that opinion. It doesn't make them 'blunt in the head'

Just because they are entitled to their opinion doesn't mean I have to have one iota of respect for that opinion.

And I find both torture and rape abhorrent. And I don't give a flyin fuck if somebody likes Cersei.

[William_Tell]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There are viewers who consider it to be no more than some very titillating poetic justice.

Honestly I thought that all of the audience was meant to understand the scene in that way. Maybe I'm just making this up, but for me it was a very disturbing moment and together with the incredibly offensive Yara/Theon scene in Volantis is the reason why I won't watch the next season of the show.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

The entire plot was dumb....and the part she tells Tyrion that she felt nothing....sigh.

In fairness, that comment was entirely consistent with the character that she has become, on the Show.  The only thing that she wants now is the Iron Throne.

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Sound like the start of a beautiful friendship, bonding over death, destruction, mayhem and arson.

Indeed. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a scene with all these mad murderous women on top together? Like Khaleesi and Ellaria and the Snakes, plus Yarasharion and the QoT. Huge potential right there.

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

In fairness, that comment was entirely consistent with the character that she has become, on the Show.  The only thing that she wants now is the Iron Throne.

Actually that's not FAIR. Even if it was "entirely consistent with the character that she has become on the show," this would be FAIR for a rant, because that includes characterization on the show.

But it's actually not consistent with the character she had become on the show. She was enjoying her sexuality on the show, and then abruptly decided to become "empty" which she didn't understand.

It's yet another transparent plot point. Hence what Daario said. She's not going to actually be happy with this throne, that she's given up everything for, including herself. They just telegraphed it.

They took her book plot with Hizzy, which I mentioned, where she'd already learned her lesson and applied this by embracing her true nature in a positive way, and tossed it aside to make her cold.

Because, like, it's good for a dragon to be cold. They have shown again and again, they just don't value female desire, and ignore the theme of a woman embracing her sexuality as a positive thing.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, The Prince of Porne said:

It is really fucked up, and says a lot about these people's morality. Not the first example of this, either: "This character is annoying, an asshole, or whatever (or a religious extremist in the case of Septa Unella), and I don't like them, so I'm going to cheer for them being tortured to death, burned, or whatever".... I know it's a TV show, not real life, but goddamn. The books want you to feel uncomfortable about things like this, and to think about questions like revenge vs. justice more deeply, but the show seems to just want shocking 'OMG' moments and for people to cheer on the badassery.

 

 

Unella was a bully.  If you're keen on karmic justice, she deserves to be bullied.

She certainly doesn't deserve prolonged torture, and probable rape.

[Aryya Stark]

3 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

A bit of a strange thing to say. Some people like Cersei and Cersei's revenge is enjoyable to them. That's their opinion and they're entitled to that opinion. It doesn't make them 'blunt in the head'

This is the Rant and Rave thread, where we the book readers are allowed a venue to express our frustrations without repercussions....please lets stick to that because this is my only venue to vent and I don't want it spoiled where I have to be careful about expressing my opinions in case someone gets offended.  

[Neds Secret]

10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agree, this bothers me a lot, and not just because I like Daario.

In the books, Dany comes to regret the political marriage to Hizzy. She literally cries after they have sex on her wedding night, for Daario. Let's repeat that, she cries because she misses Daario, and feels like she's made a mistake. She just had sex with a guy for political reasons, and it felt terrible.

In the books, GRRM uses embracing sexuality, in a positive sense, expressing and exploring desires, as a way of personal empowerment for women and when they deny their sexuality, they lose this personal power. She just went through this, that's what Daario was about, embracing the dragon.

Riding Drogo, riding Daario, riding Drogon... it's about embracing who SHE IS. A dragon. She doesn't plant trees, she conquers. She's never going to be a silk queen. She's going to play it her way from now on. In the books. That's not to say she might not have some nominal marriage (although probably not even that), but she's going to have a lover.

It makes ZERO sense that she leaves Daario behind. She thinks about him a dozen times in her last chapter, and explicitly associates him with embracing her dragon. When she turns back, away from Hizzy and Meereen, to Drogon, she pictures Daario sitting beside her. This is very clear. She learned something.

I do think that the things they had Daario tell her were like a lesson she's going to learn on the show, that this throne is not going to make her happy. But she already learned this in the books. It's not just Daario I'm talking about here, I'm objecting to this cold, empty woman who is denying her sexuality for politics, that's not Dany.

That is D&D&C, though. They did the same thing with Sansa, they cut her sexual awakening with Sandor for a rape and revenge plot with Ramsay. Sansa didn't need this "lesson" either, she knows damn well that she's in touch with her sexuality, and what that means to her. It's how she's resisting LF, her thoughts of her own desires are how she fights him.

Anyway, here's what they had Daario tell her, and I note, they did not kill him off, so he still may play in to the story.

 

 I totally agree, and I believe LF. Is in for a shock when A Man shows up, he won't be reasoned with, he won't be bought and he absolutely will not rest until  Batfinger is DEAD, because Sansa is not safe until he is!

[Le Cygne]

6 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

The entire plot was dumb....and the part she tells Tyrion that she felt nothing....sigh.

Agreed, it was dumb. The entire plot was dumb.

[Le Cygne]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Unella was a bully.  If you're keen on karmic justice, she deserves to be bullied.

She certainly doesn't deserve prolonged torture, and probable rape.

No one deserves to be bullied. Torture of any kind is subject to disparagement, especially on a rants thread.

[WinterPool Stark]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Just because they are entitled to their opinion doesn't mean I have to have one iota of respect for that opinion.

And I find both torture and rape abhorrent. And I don't give a flyin fuck if somebody likes Cersei.

nope, you don't have to respect their opinion but you don't really have to see them as stupid either though. It's a TV Show, a lot of people just go with the flow without making RL moral judgements on characters and their behaviours. People like the way Cersei's story panned out, cool for them. I just think it's as simple as that really.

At this point in the show there isn't a single character who doesn't have a black mark on them. Rooting for any of those characters doesn't take away from people's intelligence

[Neds Secret]

47 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agreed, it was dumb. The entire plot was dumb.

I think at some point we have to stop and think "what the hell is this plot?" David Benioff. Speaking about GoT S6!

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

I think at some point when have to stop and think "what the hell is this plot?" David Benioff. Speaking about GoT S6!

What? Please, elaborate.

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, Neds Secret said:

I think at some point when have to stop and think "what the hell is this plot?" David Benioff. Speaking about GoT S6!

Indeed. Full quote: "I think you've got to start wondering what the hell is this plot." ~ David Benioff

 

[SeanF]

Just now, Neds Secret said:

I think at some point when have to stop and think "what the hell is this plot?" David Benioff. Speaking about GoT S6!

Oh, there's a plot, and there's a message from the Show.  It's just nothing like the message we get from reading the series.

Terrible things happen in the series.  Good people die in horrible circumstances, sometimes as a result of doing good.  Characters that are sympathetic do morally dubious things.  But, it's clear that the author thinks that doing good in terrible circumstances is the right thing to do, even if it costs you;  that revenge is counter-productive;  that war is evil, even if it is sometimes a necessary evil;  that however bad things get, good deeds still shine out.  that Westeros is a society with a moral code, even if it's buckling under the stress of civil war.

The message from the Show is that revenge is good;  pity and mercy are stupid;  that total cruelty and ruthlessness are the ways to win and hold power. 

 

[OldGimletEye]

14 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

nope, you don't have to respect their opinion but you don't really have to see them as stupid either though. It's a TV Show, a lot of people just go with the flow without making RL moral judgements on characters and their behaviours. People like the way Cersei's story panned out, cool for them. I just think it's as simple as that really.

I don't give a shit what their reasons are. I think that thinking that the brutal torture and rape of someone is somehow awesome or something that should be condoned is dumb.

 

14 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

At this point in the show there isn't a single character who doesn't have a black mark on them. Rooting for any of those characters doesn't take away from people's intelligence

So what? That doesn't mean Cersei should get free pass here just because other characters have done questionable things. This entire line of argument is irrelevant to the question of whether what Cersei did here should be perceived as good or bad.

And yeah, if somebody sits there and says they think potential rape and brutal torture are things that are awesome, I am going to like seriously wonder what fuckin planet they come from.