Do you think Robert would have killed Jon?

[melx]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 5:03 AM, DominusNovus said:

 

What innocent people had Stannis killed?

 

how about burnings on Dragonstone ??????????

were all those he burnt alive guilty & for what exactly?

 that came later i guess but proves he had it in him.....

i guess it`s better to point out that he would carried out orders (however bloody they are),blind obedience is  his thing ("hold that castle no matter what"  for example)

[Prince of the North]

18 hours ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

I believe Robert would have killed Jon, though not by his own hand, of course. I think had he known that Rhaegar was Jon's father, he would've viewed Jon the same way he viewed Rhaegar's other children, as just "dragonspawn".

Absolutely!  But I seriously doubt Robert would have even had to give that order.  I'm quite certain one of his allies, or even just someone who wanted to curry favor with him, would have gladly done it for him - just as Tywin did all those years ago.

[DominusNovus]

31 minutes ago, melx said:

how about burnings on Dragonstone ??????????

were all those he burnt alive guilty & for what exactly?

 that came later i guess but proves he had it in him.....

i guess it`s better to point out that he would carried out orders (however bloody they are),blind obedience is  his thing ("hold that castle no matter what"  for example)

When you admit that 'that came later' you sort of make the point the rest of us are making: He's a totally different person than he would come to be.  Much of his character would be defined by his experiences under Robert's regime.  Further, as you are the one making the claim, I would like a list of all the innocents that Stannis did burn, decades after the event in question.

Stannis' character lends itself easily to others stereotyping him, but there's more depth to the man than many are willing to admit.

[devilish]

Yes. Jon Snow was the living testament of Robert's humiliation and since he was a Targ and a Stark he was a threat especially considering his Uncle's marital links with House Tully and House Arryn. The boy could potentially raise Starks, Arryns, Tullys, Tyrells (who were always loyal towards the Targs) and the Golden Company against the usurpers

 

 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Yes. Jon Snow was the living testament of Robert's humiliation and since he was a Targ and a Stark he was a threat especially considering his Uncle's marital links with House Tully and House Arryn. The boy could potentially raise Starks, Arryns, Tullys, Tyrells (who were always loyal towards the Targs) and the Golden Company against the usurpers

 

 

If Ned and Jon instead of pushing Robert to a throne he did not want, were kings themselves, they could have dealt with the babe their way, and Robert would go to Essos and be happy for once......

Robert was charisma personified, especially among martials (even when he wasn´t royal, rhaegar was popular because he was the silver haired prince charming), the Reach wouldn't declare for a targ/stark babe out of thin air, Jon Arryn wouldn´t go to war against Robert because of Ned's nephew nor would the Vale lords who in the books show more admiration for Bob than Ned... wether we like it or not the northeners are a bit outsiders compared to therest... i'll give you the Riverlands because of Cat and possibly Dorne, the rest are going with a charismatic war specialist, not a babe i'm afraid

That being said, i'm on the camp that Ned could convince a young Robert that the boy would not go for the IT so it's a bit of a far fetch war for me...

And Ned would be carefull if he pushed his nephew to the IT, an adult Jon would still be inferior to Robert in every martial department, a lot of work behind the shadows for him to have a chance

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

NO!!!!! Robert would not kill Jon .

1. Robert sees himself as a hero . Heroes don' kill children .

2 . Robert loved Lyanna ,and in his eyes Lyanna loved him back , he would have saw Jon as a product of rape .

3 .Robert loved Eddard

 

[black_hart]

Ned's promise: Even assuming RLJ we don't know the content of the promise. Was it "Keep him safe!" or "Put him on the throne, he is the prince that was promised!"? Ned's agonising over broken promises suggests there is more than "Keep him safe!".

 

[Aetta]

Robert would have had litte choice in the matter-Just as Bloodraven had little choice in what he did to Aenys Blackfyre.  

If word got out that Jon was Rhaegar's, there would for sure be a groundswell of Targaryen supporters looking to back Jon for the throne.  Whether Ned/Jon wanted it or no.  Think of Maester Aemon's reasons for taking the black; he had no want of the throne, but thought he would be manipulated and pawned all the same.  And think about the opinions of the realm during the Blackfyre rebellion:  A substantial portion of the smallfolk and nobles alike were ready to support Daemon's/his descendants' claim(s).

Thus, the Aenys Blackfyre thing was out of the question and Egg was a moron.  Lord Badass saw that one in his weirwood tea, and knew that was too big a risk.

BTW, word WOULD get out, between Varys, Petyr and Cersei, it would never remain Ned & Robert's secret.  In AGoT, Ned's POV suggest that Robert regularly shares more than just a bed with Cersei. He does treat Cersei as his royal wife in other matters, albeit begrudgingly.  He asks for her input and takes it into consideration.  Especially in the early years of their marriage when Cersei was probably more amiable to him, Robert would have blabbed to her and she would have blabbed to her daddy...

Robert being a softy at heart would have as much to do with it as Jon being a baby:  Nothing.  Maneuvers have been made time and time again in real life historical monarchy on behalf of children and in spite of sitting rulers.  Ned's word that they'll sit tight in Winterfell is not thick enough.

[melx]

Rhaegar thought usurper would kill his unborn child so he has sent 3 kingsguard to protect him

Lyanna thought usurper would kill her child so she asked Ned to keep him safe

ned thought his bff usurper would kill Jon so he kept truth about Jon from everybody

 

[devilish]

17 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

If Ned and Jon instead of pushing Robert to a throne he did not want, were kings themselves, they could have dealt with the babe their way, and Robert would go to Essos and be happy for once......

Robert was charisma personified, especially among martials (even when he wasn´t royal, rhaegar was popular because he was the silver haired prince charming), the Reach wouldn't declare for a targ/stark babe out of thin air, Jon Arryn wouldn´t go to war against Robert because of Ned's nephew nor would the Vale lords who in the books show more admiration for Bob than Ned... wether we like it or not the northeners are a bit outsiders compared to therest... i'll give you the Riverlands because of Cat and possibly Dorne, the rest are going with a charismatic war specialist, not a babe i'm afraid

That being said, i'm on the camp that Ned could convince a young Robert that the boy would not go for the IT so it's a bit of a far fetch war for me...

And Ned would be carefull if he pushed his nephew to the IT, an adult Jon would still be inferior to Robert in every martial department, a lot of work behind the shadows for him to have a chance

 

I am not suggesting that the North, the Riverlands, the Reach and the Vale would have rebelled because of Jon. However he would have been the sword of Damocles hanging over the Baratheon's dynasty head. If either Robert or his sons failed to be good rulers then Jon Snow could have been an option. The boy was well positioned in a land which made him out of reach for Robert (the North wouldn't allow a Southerner  to hurt someone with Stark blood) and his uncle's marital links (Tully-Arryn-Stark) could pave the way to a possible successful rebellion especially if Ned can get backing from loyalists and the Golden company. 

It also puts the royal family in an uncomfortable situation. Robert's wife father had sanctioned the horrible death of Jon Snow's half brothers. How would Jon Snow take that once he's at age? Also as Lyanna's boy he would be raised in Winterfell around the heir of Winterfell, whose also the nephew of the heir of the Riverlands and cousin to the heir of Vale. What if the boy convinces them to fight for his right to the iron throne?

 

 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

I am not suggesting that the North, the Riverlands, the Reach and the Vale would have rebelled because of Jon. However he would have been the sword of Damocles hanging over the Baratheon's dynasty head. If either Robert or his sons failed to be good rulers then Jon Snow could have been an option. The boy was well positioned in a land which made him out of reach for Robert (the North wouldn't allow a Southerner  to hurt someone with Stark blood) and his uncle's marital links (Tully-Arryn-Stark) could pave the way to a possible successful rebellion especially if Ned can get backing from loyalists and the Golden company. 

It also puts the royal family in an uncomfortable situation. Robert's wife father had sanctioned the horrible death of Jon Snow's half brothers. How would Jon Snow take that once he's at age? Also as Lyanna's boy he would be raised in Winterfell around the heir of Winterfell, whose also the nephew of the heir of the Riverlands and cousin to the heir of Vale. What if the boy convinces them to fight for his right to the iron throne?

 

 

Good points. Imagine if, at the time of the North and Riverlands deciding who to name King, they had Jon Snow, Targaryen Bastard as an option. Might they have plumped for a dragon King, and one of their own, rather than go for independence? Maybe.

[Nyrhex]

At the time Robert opted, at the advice of Jon Arryn, not to have Viserys and Dany killed, and that was full fury mode, with the loyalists still calling him an usurper, him not getting the girl, and ending up with a crown and a wife he does not want. 

Enter Ned with Lyanna's child. Yeah, it's easy to see it come hard on Robert if Ned tells him that this entire war was pointless, and that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, or that Rhaegar's rapes had a logical conclusion. But there is even less reason to have Jon killed than Viserys and Dany, plus whatever love would still remain in Robert for Lyanna, or the idea of the Lyanna he imagined. I honestly don't see Jon in risk of Robert's warhammer. He is Ned's blood, not the Martells, and there is even less reason to fear him because Aerys named Viserys his heir, even while Aegon lived. So really, not much of a risk, plus Robert at the time is not the Robert that ordered the hit on Dany 15 years later (and later backed out of it).

[devilish]

11 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Good points. Imagine if, at the time of the North and Riverlands deciding who to name King, they had Jon Snow, Targaryen Bastard as an option. Might they have plumped for a dragon King, and one of their own, rather than go for independence? Maybe.

Exactly. 

Robb Stark couldn't aim for the iron throne because the Northerners were not interested in being ruled from a 'flowery seat in the South' while the Southerners would find it hard to accept some with a different religion leading them from Winterfell. However what if Jon Targeryan was available? The Northerners who weren't that keen in a costly expedition in the South would probably be keener to such proposition if that meant fighting for Lyanna's son right to iron throne. The Tyrells who had just lost Renly would see Jon as a desirable option especially at a time when the young wolf was winning. Not to forget that Jon Targ  shares the same grievances towards the Lannisters as the Martells (The latter may have lost their sister but Jon have lost his half brother and sister) while as a Targ bastard he would surely attract the Golden Company's interes. A trickle could have easily became a flood. 

 

 

[WSmith84]

2 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

Enter Ned with Lyanna's child. Yeah, it's easy to see it come hard on Robert if Ned tells him that this entire war was pointless, and that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, or that Rhaegar's rapes had a logical conclusion.

To be fair, Robert and Ned had perfectly good reasons to fight the war that didn't include Lyanna. Like keeping their heads on their shoulders. But Robert might have seen Lyanna as the primary reason for it I suppose.

[Kal-L]

21 hours ago, devilish said:

Yes. Jon Snow was the living testament of Robert's humiliation and since he was a Targ and a Stark he was a threat especially considering his Uncle's marital links with House Tully and House Arryn. The boy could potentially raise Starks, Arryns, Tullys, Tyrells (who were always loyal towards the Targs) and the Golden Company against the usurpers

Be more specific in your hypothetic scenario because I don't see the Vale led by Jon declare for Rhaegar's son against Robert the man he considered as his son, besides he was his hand. I think it's a misconception to believe the Reach are more Targaryen loyalists than others Kingdom, they were during the Rebellion because they had absolutely no reason to join the rebels and go against betray their King however were they completely pro-Targaryen they would have looked for Viserys and Danerys and worked with Dorne to bring the Targaryans dynasty back.

I honestly don't see a scenario where everything goes perfectly for Jon and everyone rally behind especially against Robert of all people. That's more wishful thinking IMO.

[devilish]

2 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

At the time Robert opted, at the advice of Jon Arryn, not to have Viserys and Dany killed, and that was full fury mode, with the loyalists still calling him an usurper, him not getting the girl, and ending up with a crown and a wife he does not want. 

Enter Ned with Lyanna's child. Yeah, it's easy to see it come hard on Robert if Ned tells him that this entire war was pointless, and that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, or that Rhaegar's rapes had a logical conclusion. But there is even less reason to have Jon killed than Viserys and Dany, plus whatever love would still remain in Robert for Lyanna, or the idea of the Lyanna he imagined. I honestly don't see Jon in risk of Robert's warhammer. He is Ned's blood, not the Martells, and there is even less reason to fear him because Aerys named Viserys his heir, even while Aegon lived. So really, not much of a risk, plus Robert at the time is not the Robert that ordered the hit on Dany 15 years later (and later backed out of it).

Robert Baratheon started as Lord Paramount of a small region situated right in the middle of enemy land. He won the war not because he was a great general or he had a magnificent army but simply because he had friends. 

Now imagine a generation had passed. Ned and Robert had died of old age and King vicious took over. Ned and old Arryn fought alongside Robert because he was their friend however Robb, Robin and Edmure do not know this king who also lack the charisma and fighting spirit his father had. Now imagine if King idiot decides to use the young wolf's sister as a punching ball, attracting the fury of her brother, uncle and cousin (Robin) up in the North. Meanwhile Jon Targ would also be pissed off especially since all this story reminds him how his half brother and half sister ended up thanks to Lannister's cruelty. This could easily end up in an open rebellion

[devilish]

6 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

Be more specific in your hypothetic scenario because I don't see the Vale led by Jon declare for Rhaegar's son against Robert the man he considered as his son, besides he was his hand. I think it's a misconception to believe the Reach are more Targaryen loyalists than others Kingdom, they were during the Rebellion because they had absolutely no reason to join the rebels and go against betray their King however were they completely pro-Targaryen they would have looked for Viserys and Danerys and worked with Dorne to bring the Targaryans dynasty back.

I honestly don't see a scenario where everything goes perfectly for Jon and everyone rally behind especially against Robert of all people. That's more wishful thinking IMO.

I answered that in the previous post

[Kal-L]

10 minutes ago, devilish said:

I answered that in the previous post

What is your scenario exactly, how did Jon learn about his parantage ? Has he joined the NW ? Who did marry Margaery ? There are too much unanswered questions to talk about a rebellion. Too much speculation such as Robin and the Vale automatically fighting with the North when in the story it didn't happen. No Jon's rebellion wouldn't be a success for sure, it could very well put an end to House Stark rule of the North.

 

[Nyrhex]

29 minutes ago, devilish said:

Robert Baratheon started as Lord Paramount of a small region situated right in the middle of enemy land. He won the war not because he was a great general or he had a magnificent army but simply because he had friends. 

Now imagine a generation had passed. Ned and Robert had died of old age and King vicious took over. Ned and old Arryn fought alongside Robert because he was their friend however Robb, Robin and Edmure do not know this king who also lack the charisma and fighting spirit his father had. Now imagine if King idiot decides to use the young wolf's sister as a punching ball, attracting the fury of her brother, uncle and cousin (Robin) up in the North. Meanwhile Jon Targ would also be pissed off especially since all this story reminds him how his half brother and half sister ended up thanks to Lannister's cruelty. This could easily end up in an open rebellion

What?

How the fuck does the next generation have to do with the question in the OP "Would Robert have killed Jon?"? 

Jon Snow is practically confirmed to desert the NW to be KITN in the books, passing over 4 of Ned's children which are still alive, even if only 2 are beleived so. It does not mean that Catelyn killed him when he was a baby because she feared a bastard would make a move against her children.

[devilish]

44 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

What?

How the fuck does the next generation have to do with the question in the OP "Would Robert have killed Jon?"? 

Jon Snow is practically confirmed to desert the NW to be KITN in the books, passing over 4 of Ned's children which are still alive, even if only 2 are beleived so. It does not mean that Catelyn killed him when he was a baby because she feared a bastard would make a move against her children.

Robert would surely see him as  a potential threat to his dynasty