Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 3 hours ago, Cadiva said: Yeah totally incompetent to leave when business had allegedly finished only for the NEC to then debate something which wasn't even on the agenda. Yes, it was. People don't generally give notice on the agenda when they're going to screw you over. The sensible politician only leaves a meeting which holds constitutional power over them and their future when the meeting is formally wound up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mme Erzulie Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 22 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said: No it isn't. You can't win. Jez is unelectable. I have friends with intimate ties to British politics who told me there was no way in hell Brexit was going to happen. Remain would win 60/40 at least. I spent months of the past year reading about how Trump could never win the Republican nomination. I'm not saying I necessarily think it's likely that Corbyn would win a GE. I am saying I don't understand how people can think they know what's going to happen in the future with such certainty. 4 hours ago, SeanF said: Whatever Corbyn's faults, I think that his opponents are worse. At the moment, they certainly look more incompetent. As a Norwegian who has lived in the UK for 9 years now (3 in Liverpool and the rest in London), and to whom Corbyn was the first politician who came across as anything other than a smarmy, pandering, politicking Westminster suit, and whose policies I actually agreed with, I would like to ask brits on this forum: Am I the only one who's been absolutely aghast and appalled at the treatment Corbyn has received since he became (the frontrunner to) leader of the Labour Party? The media (Newscorp rags being joined by the Guardian, amongst others), the Tories and even his own party members have attacked him with such fervour and ire that you'd think they were dealing with Satan himself. And the worst thing from my point of view is that practically none of the criticism he's been faced with has even concerned itself with policy. It's how does he dress, does he bow deeply enough, why won't he sing God, Save the Queen, why isn't his shirt properly buttoned. I will admit to being pretty disinterested in UK politics before Corbyn, and also to being a leftie (hey, I'm from Norway!), but as somewhat of an outsider, I have been shocked by the way he's been treated. It's like everyone has had it in for him from day one, and the only real reason I can see is that he is honest, incorruptible and not in the pocket of big business. I have yet to find a politician whose voting record I'm more aligned with, and he has (much like Sanders, it might be said) voted consistently on pretty much every issue over decades. He also has clearly never been into politics for personal prestige or power, is not willing to scheme, ploy or intrigue to get ahead and seemingly practices what he preaches. I'm not convinced by Corbyn in terms of charisma or leadership ability, but if Angela Eagle is the best his opponents have to offer, then God help us all. So instead of just repeating "he's unelectable", when that basically amounts to crystal ball gazing, can someone explain to me what's so wrong with his policies that he must be kept from power at all costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 53 minutes ago, mormont said: To be fair, the £3 rule was ridiculous. It probably cost more than that to process each application. And it invited entryism, which is a legitimate concern. I've commented before about the number of Socialist Worker placards at Corbyn demonstrations, and I'm aware that Green party and SNP members have said they were going to sign up for this election. I had a couple of Tory friends who paid their £3 and voted for Corbyn, too, though I doubt that was widely done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadiva Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Shryke said: No, no you clearly aren't. It's not just representative of those sampled, that's the entire point. It's representative of the whole (within some defined margin of error). Just because they didn't contact you, personally, doesn't mean it's not representative. I didn't say it wasn't representative full stop, I said it was representative of that sample and that it was no more useful as any other opinion poll. Opinion Polls aren't infallible and the random sampling they use is just as open to manipulation as any other form of surveying. The sampling and opinion polls have been out of whack with reality since before the 2015 GE. 33 minutes ago, Hereward said: Yes, it was. People don't generally give notice on the agenda when they're going to screw you over. The sensible politician only leaves a meeting which holds constitutional power over them and their future when the meeting is formally wound up. The meeting had allegedly ended, why do you think there's been such an outcry over the whole situation? 1 hour ago, mormont said: I've heard that the NEC have also cancelled CLP meetings for fear of bullying and intimidation, which also prevents deselection of MPs. Again, probably a wise move but some are reading it badly. They've cancelled sending any new motions to the NEC, we have a CLP planned which is going ahead to nominate our choice for leader. 25 minutes ago, Mmerek Hamšzulíe said: Am I the only one who's been absolutely aghast and appalled at the treatment Corbyn has received since he became (the frontrunner to) leader of the Labour Party? The media (Newscorp rags being joined by the Guardian, amongst others), the Tories and even his own party members have attacked him with such fervour and ire that you'd think they were dealing with Satan himself. And the worst thing from my point of view is that practically none of the criticism he's been faced with has even concerned itself with policy. It's how does he dress, does he bow deeply enough, why won't he sing God, Save the Queen, why isn't his shirt properly buttoned. I will admit to being pretty disinterested in UK politics before Corbyn, and also to being a leftie (hey, I'm from Norway!), but as somewhat of an outsider, I have been shocked by the way he's been treated. It's like everyone has had it in for him from day one, and the only real reason I can see is that he is honest, incorruptible and not in the pocket of big business. I have yet to find a politician whose voting record I'm more aligned with, and he has (much like Sanders, it might be said) voted consistently on pretty much every issue over decades. He also has clearly never been into politics for personal prestige or power, is not willing to scheme, ploy or intrigue to get ahead and seemingly practices what he preaches. I'm not convinced by Corbyn in terms of charisma or leadership ability, but if Angela Eagle is the best his opponents have to offer, then God help us all. So instead of just repeating "he's unelectable", when that basically amounts to crystal ball gazing, can someone explain to me what's so wrong with his policies that he must be kept from power at all costs? No you're not, pretty much everyone I know whether a Labour Party member or not is of the same opinion but that's that social media vacuum for you I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 @Mmerek Hamšzulíe I largely agree, and the stupid thing is, I don't think anyone is particularly fearful of his policies. They just don't think he's electable. I've seen people actually reason that "I like him, I would vote for him, but he's unelectable so I'll vote for such and such". I would love to have a GE with a solid party behind him, and find out just how unelectable he is. I suspect it wouldn't be too great, but at the same time I find it hard to believe that this surge of support for him doesn't even slightly translate into votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 12 hours ago, Shryke said: Wha? This is, like, the time when it matters the most what Corbyn is doing and saying. Serious shit be going down and the opposition should be out there hammering the Tories on this clusterfuck that is almost entirely their fault. The entire mess inside Labour is exactly because he can't and won't do that kind of thing, not the cause of it. Yes, but before he (or any other Labour politician) can launch a serious attack at the Tories, Labour have to get their act together. And that has a lot to do with perception and credibility. Any attack now, looks like him scolding the Tories for playing with fire, while his own clown car (Labour) is on fire, and the passengers argue which clown should take the wheel to driven them to the next gas station (the next election). And so the car drives in circles one stage, while the fire keeps on burning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 7 minutes ago, Cadiva said: I didn't say it wasn't representative, I said it was about as useful as any other opinion poll. The meeting had allegedly ended, why do you think there's been such an outcry over the whole situation? The meeting was being live blogged. Corbyn was asked to leave while they decided the ballot issue. He refused. They then voted, he won, and got up and left to attend a rally. The meeting then carried on for nearly an hour. Doubtless he thought the important part of the meeting was over, but it does not appear from the Labour Party blog, or any of the attendees I've seen, that the meeting was formally brought to a close while he was still there. So, it was naive to think the matter was over and leave when the potential to change other rules of the contest was still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadiva Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said: @Mmerek Hamšzulíe I largely agree, and the stupid thing is, I don't think anyone is particularly fearful of his policies. They just don't think he's electable. I've seen people actually reason that "I like him, I would vote for him, but he's unelectable so I'll vote for such and such". I would love to have a GE with a solid party behind him, and find out just how unelectable he is. I suspect it wouldn't be too great, but at the same time I find it hard to believe that this surge of support for him doesn't even slightly translate into votes. I'd love someone to give me any actual justifiable reasons for why he's so unelectable that doesn't involve him being called Far Left which tends to be all I've seen. The meeting was being live blogged. Corbyn was asked to leave while they decided the ballot issue. He refused. They then voted, he won, and got up and left to attend a rally. The meeting then carried on for nearly an hour. Doubtless he thought the important part of the meeting was over, but it does not appear from the Labour Party blog, or any of the attendees I've seen, that the meeting was formally brought to a close while he was still there. So, it was naive to think the matter was over and leave when the potential to change other rules of the contest was still there. And as I said there was nothing on the agenda which suggested the potential to change the rules of the contest would even be discussed, it's why ordinary LP members like myself and others are so bloody angry about it. The NEC did not allow anyone the option to discuss or object to this proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 He has no experience running anything. He is out of touch with large numbers of Labour voters (not members) on defence, foreign policy, the monarchy, immigration and welfare. He is out of touch with voters that don't currently vote Labour, the ones he needs to attract to actually gain seats, on all of the above, plus trade unions, taxation, aspiration and debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Is May as PM really such a disaster? I've been listening to the commentary here in North America and most people have a positive opinion of her as a smart, experienced politician. I have read about some of her appalling decisions on immigration and her votes against the right of gays being able to adopt children. Can you guys explain her to us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Osborne has gone and Hammond is now chancellor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Wow. Boris is foreign secretary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Hereward said: He has no experience running anything. He is out of touch with large numbers of Labour voters (not members) on defence, foreign policy, the monarchy, immigration and welfare. He is out of touch with voters that don't currently vote Labour, the ones he needs to attract to actually gain seats, on all of the above, plus trade unions, taxation, aspiration and debt. In addition, he's beholden to a tiny inner circle of advisers to an unhealthy degree: I've actually joked about John McDonnell holding him hostage, and I've seen friends do so too. He seems uninterested, despite protestations to the contrary, in the views of people who disagree with him. He seems unable to build a team or make alliances, and it really doesn't wash to blame this on Labour MPs: a leader who can only lead people who first agree to be led, is not any kind of leader. But I've gone into all this before, in detail. To sum up: my beef with Corbyn, and the reason he's unelectable, has nothing to do with his policies. It has to do with the fact that in the last 10 months, he's shown no perceptible leadership skills. He can't run the Labour party. How can he run the country? Does anyone seriously think that a guy who can't deal with Hilary Benn can cope with Vladimir Putin? Of course, May's now given that job to Boris, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 55 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Is May as PM really such a disaster? I've been listening to the commentary here in North America and most people have a positive opinion of her as a smart, experienced politician. I have read about some of her appalling decisions on immigration and her votes against the right of gays being able to adopt children. Can you guys explain her to us? Sounds like you've already made up your mind. But in a display of wall-head action, I'll note that she apologised for her earlier voting record, as many people did, and was an early champion of gay marriage and has been a champion of women in politics from all parties. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/07/11/from-gay-rights-opponent-to-unsung-hero-of-equal-marriage-theresa-mays-surprising-evolution-on-lgbt-rights/ She has also spoken in favour of limits on executive pay, tax cuts only for the poor, worker representation on company boards, strategic nationalisation and prison reform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 minute ago, mormont said: Of course, May's now given that job to Boris, so... I think she has given the most important foreign policy issue to Davis and given Johnson more than enough rope to hang himself three or four times over. I give him a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 David Davis is the Brexit secretary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Where is Grayling?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 minute ago, Hereward said: I think she has given the most important foreign policy issue to Davis and given Johnson more than enough rope to hang himself three or four times over. I give him a year. Boris was already hung. There was no need to give him any rope. And if May wanted to make sure, there were better ideas than this. Recall that this is a guy who publicly used racial slurs in his Telegraph column just a few years ago, whose ideas about foreigners appear to the the worst kind of stereotypes. It's like appointing Prince Philip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 It is odd, but I assume that she needed to give the Brexiteers something senior, and this is the easiest one to fire someone from, particularly if they are Boris and say the kind of things Boris says. Edit: He was already hanged by everyone but the party members, who are disgruntled they don't get their vote. This is a sop to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 7 minutes ago, Hereward said: Sounds like you've already made up your mind. But in a display of wall-head action, I'll note that she apologised for her earlier voting record, as many people did, and was an early champion of gay marriage and has been a champion of women in politics from all parties. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/07/11/from-gay-rights-opponent-to-unsung-hero-of-equal-marriage-theresa-mays-surprising-evolution-on-lgbt-rights/ She has also spoken in favour of limits on executive pay, tax cuts only for the poor, worker representation on company boards, strategic nationalisation and prison reform. No, not at all, because she has very rarely made the news here, regularly only since the Brexit vote when her name started coming up as a possible candidate for succeeding Cameron. I watch a lot of the business news stations, and they've been pretty positive about May, but my friends on Facebook have been very unhappy about the idea of getting a new PM that 'no one voted for'. And of course, people post the worst stories about her, although I have searched for other stories and have seen good things about her support for women and gay marriage. I didn't think the posts in the UK threads since Brexit were very supportive of her, though. Just that she was perhaps the best of a bad lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.