If Jon becomes King , who will be his Queen ?

[Rem88]

23 hours ago, I'm Cortana said:

Jon is too incompetent to become king and he broke the rules at the night watch.  I can see him becoming queen consort to Dany.   It's a figurehead position with no real power. 

Are we talking of Show Jon or book Jon? Cause book Jon seems to me very competent, both in war matters (counseling Stannis on Dreadfort, when Stannis fought wars) than in ruling matters (see decision about iron bank, wildlings and glass gardens at the wall). His decision about Karstarks, Alys and the thenns show a ruler's mind who put the greater good in front of his personal benefits. A greater ruler than Dany, actually, If we look striclty at results. Sure, his decisions are not accepted by his sworn brothers, he mades more enemies than friends, but until the pink letter and the stabbening i'll go with him being a good future king in the north.

[Julia H.]

33 minutes ago, redtree said:

My reply wasn't about leadership skill or family member's action, it was specifically about bannermen-overlord relationship, so no i don't put Tyrion's action into account because he's a family member. And Tyrion's action doesn't indicate anything about Lannister-westerland lords relationship, he did it because personal conflicts, Tywin slept with Shae ,called Tysha a whore repetitively (which is worse because he had just figured out the truth), and about to sentenced him to die, that's all. Nothing to do with any of westerland lords. 
Another sample of house where there was inner conflict is the Arryns, Ronnel Arryn was murdered by his own brother Jonos yet Vale's bannermen were still loyal to them

Well, a lord is meant to rule his own family as well, and when your legacy is a dysfunctional family (and Tyrion is not the only example of that), one might question your overall leadership qualities with at least as much reason as in the case of a traitor unrelated to you (and I think the original point brought up was about the Starks's leadership). However, my main point was that anybody can be betrayed and tyrants are sometimes better at guarding their own safety. It says nothing about anyone's leadership qualities. The Starks inspire quite a lot of loyalty even after their fall, but not even the greatest leader will be liked by everyone and there will always be conflicting interests, there can always be someone who wants your position and your castle, no matter how good a ruler you are. Being a good ruler doesn't mean that you won't have any enemies. Similarly, not being assassinated doesn't mean you are the best ruler there is.

[redtree]

14 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Well, a lord is meant to rule his own family as well, and when your legacy is a dysfunctional family (and Tyrion is not the only example of that), one might question your overall leadership qualities with at least as much reason as in the case of a traitor unrelated to you (and I think the original point brought up was about the Starks's leadership).

Tyrion is a sample of dysfunctional intra-relationship but still, not overlord-bannermen. My original post was an addition to Boarsbane btw, he replied to kissdbyfire who seems to undermine westerland lord's attitude.

19 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

However, my main point was that anybody can be betrayed and tyrants are sometimes better at guarding their own safety. It says nothing about anyone's leadership qualities. 

True, anyone can be betrayed, but the million dollar question is why did the traitor do that ? What did the leader do ? It's not everything but it says something about leadership qualities. 

22 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

The Starks inspire quite a lot of loyalty even after their fall, but not even the greatest leader will be liked by everyone and there will always be conflicting interests, there can always be someone who wants your position and your castle, no matter how good a ruler you are. Being a good ruler doesn't mean that you won't have any enemies. Similarly, not being assassinated doesn't mean you are the best ruler there is.

If you think so

[Firefae]

I hope Val because they already have a connection and great chemistry.

And I don't want anything incest. So no Arya, Sansa or Dany.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, redtree said:

Tyrion is a sample of dysfunctional intra-relationship but still, not overlord-bannermen. My original post was an addition to Boarsbane btw, he replied to kissdbyfire who seems to undermine westerland lord's attitude.

True, anyone can be betrayed, but the million dollar question is why did the traitor do that ? What did the leader do ? It's not everything but it says something about leadership qualities. 

If you think so

I'm not sure how I undermined anything. If my post was unclear, what I meant is that the way the northerners feel for the Starks is a good indication of the respect and loyalty they command as rulers. At the same time, we know Tywin's bannermen fear him and respect him, but we're never shown that they are actually loyal in the way the northerners are fiercely loyal to the Starks.  

[redtree]

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure how I undermined anything. If my post was unclear, what I meant is that the way the northerners feel for the Starks is a good indication of the respect and loyalty they command as rulers. At the same time, we know Tywin's bannermen fear him and respect him, but we're never shown that they are actually loyal in the way the northerners are fiercely loyal to the Starks.  

I see, at first i interpreted your sentence " Like we'd ever hear a lord from the Westerlands saying he'd die for the Tywin's little girl. " as in Westerland lords would never do that as a form of undermine to their loyalty and attitude. That smiley does add the sarcasm. 

So far their bannermen seems loyal, Cersei has never been in that position, up until now at least. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, redtree said:

I see, at first i interpreted you sentence " Like we'd ever hear a lord from the Westerlands saying he'd die for the Tywin's little girl. " as in Westerland lords would never do that as a form of undermine to their loyalty and attitude. That smiley does add the sarcasm. 

So far their bannermen seems loyal, Cersei has never been in that position, up until now at least. 

My take is Tywin's bannermen fear and respect him, whereas the Starks' are, for the most part, fiercely loyal and this is very different from respect and obedience out of fear. 

[Boarsbane]

3 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Well, the Stark lord put the lord in question in his place and made him his most loyal bannerman. If anything, that's an argument in favour of the Starks being capable rulers. 

It doesn't necessarily mean that no westerlords have ever wanted to do just that. In fact, the (recently) most important leader of House Lannister was killed by his own son, which kind of indicates that he raised a somewhat dysfunctional family and that he had difficulty inspiring true loyalty (which was not based on fear or material interests). The ability to defend oneself is not the same as the ability to lead and to rule. Several truly great leaders have been assassinated in real history while there have also been dictators and tyrants who died of old age. A puppet ruler may also live a long and peaceful life if this is convenient for those who hold real power. Longevity in itself is no proof of greatness and even the best rulers can be (and have been) betrayed.

Very true. 

It doesn't change the fact that Greatjon was willing to let Ned rot in KL because of something petty like who he and his men are marching behind.

Tywin being killed by his "son" has nothing to do with his bannermen's loyalty, now if Lord Crakehall walked up and stabbed him through the heart at his uncle's wedding you might have a point that his bannermen were of questionable loyalty. As it stands the worse, and only, betrayal of a Lannister bannermen is marrying a Stark, without the Lord's consent and the lady later collaborated with Tywin. I'm sure I don't need to tell you the worst betrayal by a Stark bannerman. 

[bemused]

18 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

First he might becomes king consort or Prince consorte depending on how the call the ryles no power spouse. Not Queen consorte.

Second, even if it does happen he will be the most important of them because if he does marry Daenarys then he, as a Targaryen, will be forced to take a second wife because Daenarys is barren.

Third the oath all make when they go to the Wall is very clear that only death can break the the vow of theirs. John did die and so he is released of the oath.

 

P.S.: People often forget that Daenarys Targaryen is barren. If John does die without issue the Targaryen Dynasty ENDS

 

In ADwD, GRRM strongly hints that Dany miscarries Daario's child as she wanders in the Dothraki sea. It seems Dany is not barren, though she doesn't know it yet.

GRRM confirms that a precedent exists for releasing a man from his oath , though it's rare ...

 http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

Robb seems to be aware of a precedent and thinks an offer of more men in exchange will satisfy it's requirements. (And Jon has not been killed, in my opinion and that of many others.)

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

In this world where magic exists and major political upheaval is at hand , what's in the blood can be at least as important (if not moreso) as what's in the name.. Stark blood is every bit as strong in Jon as it is in Ned's children. He's been raised as a Stark and immersed in Northern culture and politics. I doubt he will suddenly identify as a Targaryen, or take the name.

Since I think his Queen is most likely to be Val, and the free folk are likely to hail him as their leader / king ... and since a number of Ned's children are alive, (and maybe a posthumous child of Robb's, at a very outside chance), I can see Jon perhaps taking a name of his own invention, eventually ... while honouring both sides of his heritage.

If the Targaryen name dies out , the blood would not. It's very possible that Tyrion is Aerys' child (maybe Jaime and Cersei, too).. If so, some proof may emerge. Tyrion especially, might be only too glad to embrace the Targ. name. 

In any case, a husband can take his wife's name in order to preserve it, or Dany could take a page from the Mormont's book, where in Maege's generation and Alysanne's, the line continues openly through the mother, without even any recognition of the father.

Lots of things are possible.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

My take is Tywin's bannermen fear and respect him, whereas the Starks' are, for the most part, fiercely loyal and this is very different from respect and obedience out of fear. 

Actually the Starks are the only family with so loyal supporters. People are willing to die for Ned and his family something that cannot be told about any other Great family in Westeros. I don't see how a family who inspires so much loyalty can be bad rulers. Heck we even hear 

Quote

When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk down the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. 

How a family who could do it is a family of bad rulers?

[Julia H.]

5 hours ago, redtree said:

Tyrion is a sample of dysfunctional intra-relationship but still, not overlord-bannermen. My original post was an addition to Boarsbane btw, he replied to kissdbyfire who seems to undermine westerland lord's attitude.

True, anyone can be betrayed, but the million dollar question is why did the traitor do that ? What did the leader do ? It's not everything but it says something about leadership qualities. 

If you think so

Roose Bolton killed Robb because he wanted to be the Lord Paramount of the North and he was evil enough to betray and kill for material gain and also because a nearly continent-wide war gave him the opportunity. 

3 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

It doesn't change the fact that Greatjon was willing to let Ned rot in KL because of something petty like who he and his men are marching behind.

Well, the Greatjon showed up when he was called without delay and he never defected. He made some threats to gain prestige and perhaps to test the young lord's leadership qualities before following him to war (you do want to know what kind of leader you are following in a war even if you will follow him anyway, and Robb was a brand new lord), but he never fulfilled his threat and we don't know if he ever seriously meant to. We do know, however, that he became Robb's most ardent and loyal supporter. Deeds are truer than words.

Quote

Tywin being killed by his "son" has nothing to do with his bannermen's loyalty, now if Lord Crakehall walked up and stabbed him through the heart at his uncle's wedding you might have a point that his bannermen were of questionable loyalty. As it stands the worse, and only, betrayal of a Lannister bannermen is marrying a Stark, without the Lord's consent and the lady later collaborated with Tywin. I'm sure I don't need to tell you the worst betrayal by a Stark bannerman. 

The Starks have been betrayed worse by a very dishonest bannerman. So? What does that say about their leadership qualities? There are always people who cannot be made loyal because loyalty is not in their nature. Roose Bolton would have betrayed and killed Tywin or anyone else just as well if he had gained anything by doing so.

Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. Martin Luther King was assassinated. Mahatma Gandhi was assassinated.

I could name dictators who died peacefully of old age in their beds. Does that mean they were better leaders than the assassinated politicians listed above? I don't think so.

Regarding the Lannisters, indeed, they are not the ones who typically get betrayed. They are the ones who organize betrayals. 

[Darksky]

6 hours ago, Rem88 said:

Are we talking of Show Jon or book Jon? Cause book Jon seems to me very competent, both in war matters (counseling Stannis on Dreadfort, when Stannis fought wars) than in ruling matters (see decision about iron bank, wildlings and glass gardens at the wall). His decision about Karstarks, Alys and the thenns show a ruler's mind who put the greater good in front of his personal benefits. A greater ruler than Dany, actually, If we look striclty at results. Sure, his decisions are not accepted by his sworn brothers, he mades more enemies than friends, but until the pink letter and the stabbening i'll go with him being a good future king in the north.

So competent he decided to break his NW vows and march with ONLY his rag tag wildling army on the Boltons because of a letter. He didn't even stop to consider it might all be BS. Didn't bother to check it out before making any bold moves. So competent he made his plans public to the rest of the NW.

[Boarsbane]

45 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 

Well, the Greatjon showed up when he was called without delay and he never defected. He made some threats to gain prestige and perhaps to test the young lord's leadership qualities before following him to war (you do want to know what kind of leader you are following in a war even if you will follow him anyway, and Robb was a brand new lord), but he never fulfilled his threat and we don't know if he ever seriously meant to. We do know, however, that he became Robb's most ardent and loyal supporter. Deeds are truer than words.

The Starks have been betrayed worse by a very dishonest bannerman. So? What does that say about their leadership qualities? There are always people who cannot be made loyal because loyalty is not in their nature. Roose Bolton would have betrayed and killed Tywin or anyone else just as well if he had gained anything by doing so.

Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. Martin Luther King was assassinated. Mahatma Gandhi was assassinated.

I could name dictators who died peacefully of old age in their beds. Does that mean they were better leaders than the assassinated politicians listed above? I don't think so.

Regarding the Lannisters, indeed, they are not the ones who typically get betrayed. They are the ones who organize betrayals. 

You think Greatjon is a man to make idle threats? He's an idiot, testing Robb with idle threats would never occur to him. Also I'm pretty sure he drew his sword on Robb which gives Robb an excuse to kill him if he wants, don't think he'd go that far for a test. It's obvious Greatjon valued his own pride over Ned's life but Robb forcefully put him in his place.

It says they're too stupid to realize they have disloyal bannerman and that they don't inspire enough respect or fear to keep their bannerman in line. Roose Bolton never would of killed Tywin because he'd of either been scared to act against him or Tywin would of realized what he was and had him killed. 

What do any of those people have to do with the Starks?

Indeed, says something about the loyalty of their bannermen. 

 

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 2:40 PM, LordImp said:

Straightfoward , if Jon ends up as King of 7 Kingdoms in the end who will be his Queen ? 

 

Candidates:

Val - Very likely 

Daeneryrs Targaryen - Doubtful , because if Dany lives til the end i think she will he Queen not a consort

Arya Stark - The most likely option IMO 

Sansa Stark - More likely with Arya IMO

Margaery Tyrell - Nah

Arianne Martell - Think she dies 

Asha Greyjoy - Doubt that a Greyjoy will ever be consort to anyone 

Allyria Dayne - Why not ? 

Mya Stone - Nah

Some randen northern noblewoman - Could be

Some Frey girl - Doubt it 

Some Lannister girl - Nah 

Elia Sand - Maybe 

Who do you think ? IMO Arya is the most likely option , then Daenerys , then Sansa and then Allyria Dayne. 

 

Edit: Val added to the list 

Cersei, because she always manages to land on her feet.

[Stormourne]

I love this quote from Marco Polo. Slightly paraphrased: "Only peasants marry for love, while royalty marry for a cause greater than themselves." How would marrying Val be beneficial in the war against the White Walkers? It's already been stated that the Free Folk choose to serve Mance. And would not serve his relatives because they related through blood or marriage or whatever. It's only the southerners who think Val is a princess. The Wildlings only see her as the sister of Dalla.

 

[kissdbyfire]

28 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I love this quote from Marco Polo. Slightly paraphrased: "Only peasants marry for love, while royalty marry for a cause greater than themselves." How would marrying Val be beneficial in the war against the White Walkers? It's already been stated that the Free Folk choose to serve Mance. And would not serve his relatives because they related through blood or marriage or whatever. It's only the southerners who think Val is a princess. The Wildlings only see her as the sister of Dalla.

 

I beg to differ. I don't think a Jon/Val match would have anything to do with Val being a princess. Like, not at all. The wildlings see Val as an accomplished, independent, intelligent, brave woman in her own right. 

[The Fattest Leech]

27 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I love this quote from Marco Polo. Slightly paraphrased: "Only peasants marry for love, while royalty marry for a cause greater than themselves." How would marrying Val be beneficial in the war against the White Walkers? It's already been stated that the Free Folk choose to serve Mance. And would not serve his relatives because they related through blood or marriage or whatever. It's only the southerners who think Val is a princess. The Wildlings only see her as the sister of Dalla.

 

You kinda already answered part of your question.

To the Bold. Mance sees the value in Jon and Mance will follow Jon. Look at the mission Mance was agreed to take on. Even the six women did their best and died for the mission. The wildlings will follow Jon, the guy that risked his life to get them to safety through the wall and at Hardhome.

To the Underline. These qualities are important to the southron houses. Even Val knows this when she once, hestitantly but dutifully, kneels to Selyse. A union between Jon and Val will appease both sides.. after a little more settling. It won't happen overnight (mostly).

Val will be majorly important. GRRM stated a long time ago that his characters and the story will be introduced in three acts. She was introduced as part of the second act.  What info we do have about Val is already immense and will just point out a few things to start with:

1. Val is a healer and of the Old Gods, as Jon sees Ghost is and then realizes that he, himself, is also of the Old Gods. Jon is already connecting the two of them here.
2. Having  healer of the Old Gods like Val and Morna white mask around while you are stabbed to death is going to come in way more useful than what Mel has to offer.
3. Jon is also starting to see himself more a wildling by the mid- end of Dance.
4. Val sings to the "Little Monster" and we have already seen in Essos and Westeros that different witches sing spells. Val is protecting the wildling baby because she knows she has to leave and she wants the baby safe. She passes it off to Jon playfully as , "I can't help it if the baby happens to hear me sing."
5. Jon has a romantic thing for her but feels he is not worthy on some level because he is a bastard. Honestly, the way Jon feels about himself compared to Val and the whole highborn-prince-princess thing could be a thread on it's own. The phrase "you know nothing Jon Snow" carries over to here. Jon still knows nothing about himself and how he would be worthy of the wildling princess. (He is the prince that was promised).
6. Jon already "stole" Val when Stannis came riding in and sacked Mance's camp outside the wall. Val asks about Jarl and this event twice (?) just to make sure. Again, "you know nothing Jon Snow" because he is the only one that does not see it yet.
7. Most importantly, she is well respected within the entire wilding community and can travel unmolested and even aided by different clans. When Jon secretly sends her out, she comes back as promised and when promised. She is competent and loyal.
8. The passage I put below shows how Jon thinks of Val, and what he wants long term. But again, we the readers know what Jon is still blind to. He needs to still open his eyes like Ghost when he found the wolf as a pup. Ghost was the only one with his eyes already open.
9. Ghost really likes her, and we all know that if your dog doesn't like your girlfriend/boyfriend, then it's time to break up
   1. Mel uses potions and Magic once to fool Ghost into coming over to her while Mel used a "small" glamour to make herself look like Ygritte for a moment to lure Jon over to her. Mel was a false disguise. Val was true.
10. When Jon stole Val, the constellation "Thief" was in the "Moonmaid". Mormont's raven calls Jon a "thief" several times.
    1. Jon refers to Val looking very "moonish" and silvery when their breath mingles in the air. Again with the repetition of the Moon and Stars attraction theme for the main characters in the story.
11. Stannis sees the high worth of Val and tries to marry her off to the higherborn knights in his service. We all know that ain't happening! Jon does know this... which is very curious. But no matter, because whoever Stannis puts in Winterfell, Val comes with the castle.

A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

[kissdbyfire]

Beautiful post, @The Fattest Leech!

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Beautiful post, @The Fattest Leech!

ALWAYS trust your direwolf

[The Fattest Leech]

And speaking of Val and Ghost... this has always been one of my favorite passages. I read it and I am sucked right in. The new digs Val is wearing here are most likely ceremonial in nature.

I would not be surprised if Jon and Val take a carved weirwood face as a sigil later. There are, and will be, many links between the old gods, Jon, Ghost, Val, Morna and Bran within the trees and clearly the weirwood face is important.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

From above came the sudden sound of wings. Mormont's raven flapped from a limb of an old oak to perch upon Jon's saddle. "Corn," it cried. "Corn, corn, corn."

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.