If Jon becomes King , who will be his Queen ?

[GhostNymeria]

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

These are the words of another huge Arya/Jon romancer of the forum. I am cutting and pasting from a pm that was had between me and the A/J romancer and a few others here. The poster did not want to make a huge public  thread about this because as the poster said in the pm, it left them shaken, and I felt awful for this poster because they are really good people in real life. In the spoiler just to be fair to others:

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Leech actually spotted GRRM go to the men's room right as we were leaving!!! So we decided to wait outside to ask him one more thing!

Me: Ok, if you foreshadowed something in the first book, like, really cleverly hidden, would you then follow through on that hint? For sure?..

GRRM: Well, this goes with what I said before, the story changes and expands as I write. I wish I was able to go back and make revised drafts, but that's not giong to happen.

Leech: So, how about the foreshadowing? 

GRRM:I wish some past things weren't such strong foreshadowing," and then he said, "I wish some new things had stronger foreshadowing then." 

 

Also earlier during the coffee talk (before the scene mentioned above), we got to ask George some other questions and my friend asked about Arya/Jon again. This is where she first asked about the foreshadowing being a pattern and George answered, "Well you noticed something I wasn't even aware of"

Ok. This is all I am comfortable saying right now because I don't want that poster to get upset with me, but at the same time, atleast in snippets, I feel like George's answers should be public info. 

 

I beleive this is already posted in another thread, the Balticon thread I think. I have definitely read it before.

I'm not seeing Martin's word's regarding Jon/Arya at Balticon as proof that it won't happen, just like I'm not seeing the outline as proof it will definitely happen. When he was asked, he knew the outline was out, and when people referencing the Jon/Arya romance and asking about the foreshadowing, he's not going to say something indicating it will happen if he's still planning it. The outline leaking would be spoilery enough. I mean, he did say he was upset that it leaked.  I'm paraphrasing now, but he also said that it's "something there" between Jon and Val. Does that mean they will marry and we can now rule out every other possibility? No, but there's a chance they might of course, but I don't think they will in my opinion.

[TheDemonicStark]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Arya is family to Jon and he thinks of her as his little sister. This is one of the closest and most beautiful relationships in the books, but it doesn't have to turn into romantic love. 

Yes, Jon loves all of his family, all of his siblings and his father, and Arya is still special as his favourite sibling. The role of the Arya problem in ADwD is the most extreme conscience dilemma he has ever experienced. Jon initially gave up his family for the Night's Watch when it was a personal sacrifice entirely on his part. His family members were rich and powerful and had each other. They could do without Jon, and Jon would be doing a service to them by defending the borders of the realm against the wildling invaders. Then Ned was imprisoned and killed and Robb went to war. It was a difficult dilemma but Jon eventually accepted that it wasn't his job to go to war with Robb. Ned was dead anyway, Robb had thousands of soldiers and seasoned generals, it was unlikely that Jon would make a big difference, while he was truly needed in the Night's Watch. It was also unlikely that he would be able to help his sisters in King's Landing. Later, Sansa became "Lady Lannister" anyway and then disappeared, while there was no word of Arya at all. Bran and Rickon were "safe" behind the walls of Winterfell, surrounded by soldiers, advisers and servants. They didn't seem to need Jon specifically, and they couldn't be expected to shelter a deserter anyway. When the castle was lost and Jon's brothers were believed to be dead, it was too late for anybody to do anything for them. 

Then when he thought he had lost his whole family, he got news that Arya, his most loved sibling, was alive, although in the dirty hands of a not so desirable husband-to-be. Later he got word that his "little sister" was on the run, basically running to him for help, alone in mortal danger with no hope of being helped by anyone else. Jon is by nature a protector. Shielding people from mortal danger is his chosen profession. Refusing to be the last refuge of his little sister in this situation is very far from giving up the privileges of belonging to a powerful and prestigious family, it is also very different from not helping someone who already has an army or from giving up taking revenge for the dead for a more important cause. 

That completely explains why Jon's story in ADwD is centred around Arya, even without a future romance. It is the end of his tether, and - I believe - it may also be the turning point where family and duty will not be opposites any more (but that's a different topic).

The Stark men are also known to be very protective of their little sisters. Think of Bran's "foolish gallantry" or Ned's promise to Lyanna and what he risked for her. Jon's fiercely protective brotherly love for his little sister absolutely fits this pattern. 

So, what would his reaction to finding out it was Jeyne Poole the whole time be? More importantly, what would Arya's?

[Julia H.]

2 minutes ago, TheDemonicStark said:

So, what would his reaction to finding out it was Jeyne Poole the whole time be? More importantly, what would Arya's?

Good questions... I think, seeing Jeyne Poole, Jon would be compassionate. (It might be different if he just heard that the girl impersonated Arya, but seeing her would make it obvious that she was a victim rather than a perpetrator.) He would still want to kill Ramsay. He would also probably feel that he has lost Arya once again.

There is also the possibility that Jeyne dies before meeting Jon and Jon believes Arya is dead. 

Regarding Arya's reaction, I think she would want to pay a visit to the Boltons. It could be an interesting scene if the real Arya Stark appeared in response to Ramsay's search for fake Arya... 

[teej6]

6 hours ago, The Wull said:

You're right that I am not in George's head and that I shouldn't have said what his intentions are.  I should have said something like, "From what George has actually put to page from AGoT to ADwD, there is currently no indication that Jon and Arya's relationship will prove to be anything other than a close sibling relationship."  

Jon and Arya ending up together would be quite a bombshell to drop in an epilogue.  If it's going to happen, it's going to need a lot more thought, and a lot more exploration than a single chapter could possibly provide.  I just don't see anyone possibly being satisfied with, "Oh by the way, Jon and Arya are Lord and Lady Stark now and have four wonderful children, all named Brandon."

As for prophecy, I'm just not convinced that Ned's line rises to the level of prophecy. After all, Sansa called Arya Horse-face.  Does this mean that she'll skin-change a horse, or use a horse's face to infiltrate a castle? Sansa is arguably more in tune with magic and the Old Gods than Ned, being a warg, and more of a main character.  It's a ridiculous example, but I can't see how you can count Ned's line foreshadowing, while saying Sansa's means nothing if you're being consistent.  

I guess we'll all see how it plays out together, and of course it isn't impossible, but it's certainly not likely.  

Regarding the bolded part if you think Sansa is "more in tune" with the Old Gods than Ned, then you have a very different interpretation of the books. Sansa, even in the recent books, does not feel connected to the Old Gods. The only reason she goes to the Godswood at KL is to meet Dontos. As for her warging ability, I know Sansa fans like to think she has one, but we've not seen her warg into anything so far. So you can speculate that Sansa is a warg (when there's no evidence she is) but Jon and Arya ending up together is totally out of the realm of possibility? And btw IIRC, Sansa never called Arya horseface that was Jeyne Poole who did that. And no, Jeyne calling Arya horseface and Ned (the protagonist in AGOT) telling his little girl that she'll be queen are not the same. And if you can't make that distinction, there's nothing more to say. If you had quoted Jon's line to Arya of her "sewing all through winter... " you may have made a case. 

[The Wull]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Regarding the bolded part if you think Sansa is "more in tune" with the Old Gods than Ned, then you have a very different interpretation of the books. Sansa, even in the recent books, does not feel connected to the Old Gods. The only reason she goes to the Godswood at KL is to meet Dontos. As for her warging ability, I know Sansa fans like to think she has one, but we've not seen her warg into anything so far. So you can speculate that Sansa is a warg (when there's no evidence she is) but Jon and Arya ending up together is totally out of the realm of possibility? And btw IIRC, Sansa never called Arya horseface that was Jeyne Poole who did that. And no, Jeyne calling Arya horseface and Ned (the protagonist in AGOT) telling his little girl that she'll be queen are not the same. And if you can't make that distinction, there's nothing more to say. If you had quoted Jon's line to Arya of her "sewing all through winter... " you may have made a case. 

GRRM specifically told us that all of the Stark children are wargs.  I tend to believe the author, even if it hasn't manifested yet.  Regarding "horse-face", do you think Jeyne Poole, Sansa's best friend and shadow, started calling her that by herself without Sansa's agreement and approval?  Of course Sansa called her that, whether on-page or off.  Regardless, we're getting stuck in the weeds here.  My larger point is that similarly main characters have said things, including to Arya, that nobody thinks are foreshadowing.  Why do we think that Ned's line is special?  Is it because of  the word "queen", which immediately sets off alarm bells in people's heads?  Even if she were to be queen, a stretch, we then need to make another leap to connect her to being Jon's queen.  There's simply too many leaps in logic here for it to be anywhere near likely.  

Edited in link.

[teej6]

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Arya is family to Jon and he thinks of her as his little sister. This is one of the closest and most beautiful relationships in the books, but it doesn't have to turn into romantic love. 

Yes, Jon loves all of his family, all of his siblings and his father, and Arya is still special as his favourite sibling. The role of the Arya problem in ADwD is the most extreme conscience dilemma he has ever experienced. Jon initially gave up his family for the Night's Watch when it was a personal sacrifice entirely on his part. His family members were rich and powerful and had each other. They could do without Jon, and Jon would be doing a service to them by defending the borders of the realm against the wildling invaders. Then Ned was imprisoned and killed and Robb went to war. It was a difficult dilemma but Jon eventually accepted that it wasn't his job to go to war with Robb. Ned was dead anyway, Robb had thousands of soldiers and seasoned generals, it was unlikely that Jon would make a big difference, while he was truly needed in the Night's Watch. It was also unlikely that he would be able to help his sisters in King's Landing. Later, Sansa became "Lady Lannister" anyway and then disappeared, while there was no word of Arya at all. Bran and Rickon were "safe" behind the walls of Winterfell, surrounded by soldiers, advisers and servants. They didn't seem to need Jon specifically, and they couldn't be expected to shelter a deserter anyway. When the castle was lost and Jon's brothers were believed to be dead, it was too late for anybody to do anything for them. 

Then when he thought he had lost his whole family, he got news that Arya, his most loved sibling, was alive, although in the dirty hands of a not so desirable husband-to-be. Later he got word that his "little sister" was on the run, basically running to him for help, alone in mortal danger with no hope of being helped by anyone else. Jon is by nature a protector. Shielding people from mortal danger is his chosen profession. Refusing to be the last refuge of his little sister in this situation is very far from giving up the privileges of belonging to a powerful and prestigious family, it is also very different from not helping someone who already has an army or from giving up taking revenge for the dead for a more important cause. 

That completely explains why Jon's story in ADwD is centred around Arya, even without a future romance. It is the end of his tether, and - I believe - it may also be the turning point where family and duty will not be opposites any more (but that's a different topic).

The Stark men are also known to be very protective of their little sisters. Think of Bran's "foolish gallantry" or Ned's promise to Lyanna and what he risked for her. Jon's fiercely protective brotherly love for his little sister absolutely fits this pattern. 

Yes, Jon and Arya's love for each other is the most purest, unconditional form of love we have in the current storyline in the books. In my opinion, no other relationship in the books is more endearing. Jon is probably the one and only person that can save Arya if she were to slip into total darkness as a character. I'm perfectly fine with Jon and Arya maintaining their brother/sister relationship till the end. However, I also feel that GRRM is perfectly capable of developing their relationship in a way that leads to marriage without it seeming forced or ugly. If it wasn't for the revelation of GRRM's original outline, I would not have theorized on a Jon/Arya romance. But now that I know of this outline, I can see the hints/clues in the books. Val is also a likely choice for Jon to marry but I also feel that, judging by the events in ADWD, that ship may have already sailed. He passed on Val and she didn't seem terribly interested in him. I could be wrong though. I totally dislike Jon and Dany getting married; nevertheless I think this is a possibility. In my opinion, nothing is as bad as Jon and Sansa getting married. I think Jon/Sansa is totally unrealistic and is only posited by Sansa fans. 

[teej6]

2 hours ago, The Wull said:

GRRM specifically told us that all of the Stark children are wargs.  I tend to believe the author, even if it hasn't manifested yet.  Regarding "horse-face", do you think Jeyne Poole, Sansa's best friend and shadow, started calling her that by herself without Sansa's agreement and approval?  Of course Sansa called her that, whether on-page or off.  Regardless, we're getting stuck in the weeds here.  My larger point is that similarly main characters have said things, including to Arya, that nobody thinks are foreshadowing.  Why do we think that Ned's line is special?  Is it because of  the word "queen", which immediately sets off alarm bells in people's heads?  Even if she were to be queen, a stretch, we then need to make another leap to connect her to being Jon's queen.  There's simply too many leaps in logic here for it to be anywhere near likely.  

Edited in link.

I'll believe Sansa is a warg when it's written as such in the books. As for Sansa calling Arya horseface, IIRC, Arya specifically thinks that Sansa was too polite to call her horseface. So your statement that Sansa called Arya horseface is wrong. I'd rather believe what's in the books than "off-page" assumptions. And yes, Arya being queen does not automatically imply she'll be Jon's queen but the point of this thread was who would be Jon's queen and I was stating that Arya is a viable option and Ned's statement could be a hint.

[Victor Newman]

13 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I find it creepy how people are so quick to turn Jon and Arya into a romance. I have faith in GRRM that this won't happen cause it's nasty and unnecessary. 

Let me say that I don't think Jon is Azor Ahai.  Dany is Azor Ahai. 

But it could be interesting to me if Jon is Azor Ahai.  More tragedy for Jon and the Starks = a good story to me.  If Jon is Azor Ahai, then Arya is his Nissa Nissa.  Mellisandre talks Jon into stabbing Arya in the heart.  Jon reluctantly agrees and stabs Arya in the heart, killing little Arya.  The sword doesn't glow.  It doesn't light up.  Jon gets bummed out.

[Victor Newman]

23 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

New Not-So-Great House = House Snow

House Words = "We Know Nothing"  if Jon married fArya like you said.

If Jon married a Greyjoy, the words become "We Don't Know", and if Jon married a Baratheon, the house words become "We Don't Pay Our Debts".  But if he should marry a Tully, it becomes "High on the Poppy".  Should very boring Jon marry a Lannister, it becomes "Hear Me Snore."

You sir, are awesome.

Here's one for you. 

House Snow's new words if Jon married a Bolton.  "Our Brains Aren't Sharp"

 

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Yes, Jon and Arya's love for each other is the most purest, unconditional love we have in the current storyline in the books. In my opinion, no other relationship in the books is more endearing. Jon is probably the one and only person that can save Arya if she were to slip into total darkness as a character. I'm perfectly fine with Jon and Arya maintaining their brother/sister relationship till the end. However, I also feel that GRRM is perfectly capable of developing their relationship in a way that leads to marriage without it seeming forced or ugly. If it wasn't for the revelation of GRRM's original outline, I would not have theorized on a Jon/Arya romance. But now that I know of this outline, I can see the hints/clues in the books. Val is also a likely choice for Jon to marry but I also feel that, judging by the events in ADWD, that ship may have already sailed. He passed on Val and she didn't seem terribly interested in him. I could be wrong though. I totally dislike Jon and Dany getting married; nevertheless I think this is a possibility. In my opinion, nothing is as bad as Jon and Sansa getting married. I think Jon/Sansa is totally unrealistic and is only by posited Sansa fans. 

I agree that it's ultimately up to GRRM to pull off whatever he is planning in a compelling and believable way. I will probably be able to accept things I don't want to happen, and I will even like them as long as they are written well.   

[TheDemonicStark]

15 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Good questions... I think, seeing Jeyne Poole, Jon would be compassionate. (It might be different if he just heard that the girl impersonated Arya, but seeing her would make it obvious that she was a victim rather than a perpetrator.) He would still want to kill Ramsay. He would also probably feel that he has lost Arya once again.

There is also the possibility that Jeyne dies before meeting Jon and Jon believes Arya is dead. 

Regarding Arya's reaction, I think she would want to pay a visit to the Boltons. It could be an interesting scene if the real Arya Stark appeared in response to Ramsay's search for fake Arya... 

Here's how I want Ramsay to die:

Jon Snow: "Ghost.....feed..."

What do you think Jeyne Poole's reaction to meeting Jon Snow would be? Provided he really is dead.

[Julia H.]

5 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Here's how I want Ramsay to die:

Jon Snow: "Ghost.....feed..."

What do you think Jeyne Poole's reaction to meeting Jon Snow would be? Provided he really is dead.

Yeah, I guess most of us have something special in store for Ramsay in our imagination. 

IIRC, unlike Summer, Grey Wind and Nymeria (I'm not sure about Shaggydog), Ghost has never killed or eaten a human being yet. He has attacked some but hasn't killed or eaten any humans. This fact may have some significance. Of course, like Craster, Ramsay seems less than human in half a hundred ways...

Regarding Jeyne Poole, I guess at the moment she is terribly afraid of Jon Snow  as someone who can identify her and is likely to take offence at her impersonation of a Stark.

Do you mean what her reaction would be to dead Jon Snow? I don't think it would be good news to her if she met the assassins and was introduced to them as Arya Stark... If she met Jon Snow's friends in the same way, they would be likely to help her. But I guess her reaction would still be fear in any case.  

[TheDemonicStark]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Yeah, I guess most of us have something special in store for Ramsay in our imagination. 

IIRC, unlike Summer, Grey Wind and Nymeria (I'm not sure about Shaggydog), Ghost has never killed or eaten a human being yet. He has attacked some but hasn't killed or eaten any humans. This fact may have some significance. Of course, like Craster, Ramsay seems less than human in half a hundred ways...

Regarding Jeyne Poole, I guess at the moment she is terribly afraid of Jon Snow  as someone who can identify her and is likely to take offence at her impersonation of a Stark.

Do you mean what her reaction would be to dead Jon Snow? I don't think it would be good news to her if she met the assassins and was introduced to them as Arya Stark... If she met Jon Snow's friends in the same way, they would be likely to help her. But I guess her reaction would still be fear in any case.  

Good points, all of them really. But we all know Jon Snow will come back, and when he does, what would Jeyne's reaction be then?

[kissdbyfire]

On 8 July 2016 at 6:56 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

To the first, George has said that he dropped that idea before finishing the first book.

To the second. I'm not arguing here, I truly just want to know why Jon/Arya shippers focus on a single line or two in one part of the books. If you look at the entire scene, Jon thinks of all of his siblings. Even Sansa (No, I am not a Sansa shipper), it's just that Jon includes her even though Sansa was always curt with him.

The repetition of "I want my bride back", is anger. Jon is angry that someone has hurt his family or could make a skin out of them. Jon DID ride out earlier in the story when he heard Ned was beheaded and Robb was assembling an army. Jon risked his life before to help save his family. He carried guilt he could not leave to go help his family. Jon was not going to let that guilt get him again. If anything, this shows how Jon is consistent throughout all the books with the love, respect and honor he has for his family and their Stark name.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"I won't say you're wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?"

 

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

 

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.

That's a great quote, and right before, when Jon first gets the letter from Clydas and reads it, we have Tormund saying,

“Snow?” said Tormund Giantsbane. “You look like your father’s bloody head just rolled out o’ that paper.”

I agree, Jon chose his love for his family here, above all else. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's a great quote, and right before, when Jon first gets the letter from Clydas and reads it, we have Tormund saying,

“Snow?” said Tormund Giantsbane. “You look like your father’s bloody head just rolled out o’ that paper.”

I agree, Jon chose his love for his family here, above all else. 

Really off topic but I think that Jon and letters at ADWD give us great moments. My favorite is;

"Dead things in the wood. Dead things in the water. Six ships left, of the eleven that set sail. Jon Snow rolled up the parchment, frowning. Night falls, he thought, and now my war begins."

[TheDemonicStark]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's a great quote, and right before, when Jon first gets the letter from Clydas and reads it, we have Tormund saying,

“Snow?” said Tormund Giantsbane. “You look like your father’s bloody head just rolled out o’ that paper.”

I agree, Jon chose his love for his family here, above all else. 

 

True. But when he learns that it was Jeyne the whole time, he will be rathered surprised, for sure.

[Julia H.]

29 minutes ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Good points, all of them really. But we all know Jon Snow will come back, and when he does, what would Jeyne's reaction be then?

It depends on how Jon will come back, how Jeyne will find it out (whether she will see him first or hear about him first), in what condition she will be (health-wise and otherwise) in that moment and what the general circumstances will be. Jon's survival of the assassination attempt has the potential to shock and surprise most other characters, but beyond that... We just have to wait and hope to see it.

[HallowedMarcus]

I also believe that he might also marry a Stark. Maybe it won't happen.

If it doesnt, then he'll probably marries Arianne Martell.

1) Daenerys and Arya

2) Daenerys and Arianne Martell

[Chib]

53 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

I also believe that he might also marry a Stark. Maybe it won't happen.

If it doesnt, then he'll probably marries Arianne Martell.

1) Daenerys and Arya

2) Daenerys and Arianne Martell

 

I hope it's either Dany or Arya

[Damsel in Distress]

On 7/8/2016 at 1:55 PM, Steelshanks Walton said:

Some of us aren't new.  We've been here a long while. 

The Iron Throne is the symbol of the ruler of Westeros.  It is also a symbol of Aegon's victory over the petty kings who each ruled a piece of Westeros before the Targaryens came. 

New Not-So-Great House = House Snow

House Words = "We Know Nothing"  if Jon married fArya like you said.

If Jon married a Greyjoy, the words become "We Don't Know", and if Jon married a Baratheon, the house words become "We Don't Pay Our Debts".  But if he should marry a Tully, it becomes "High on the Poppy".  Should very boring Jon marry a Lannister, it becomes "Hear Me Snore."

Ha Ha.  Too funny and I love it.  Thank you for the laugh.  Please make up some more.

1. Jon + Clegane
2. Jon + Bolton