If Jon becomes King , who will be his Queen ?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Ha Ha.  Too funny and I love it.  Thank you for the laugh.  Please make up some more.

1. Jon + Clegane
2. Jon + Bolton

 

Jon + Clegane = "we are dogs"

 

[a black swan]

On 09/07/2016 at 5:24 AM, The Wull said:

I think we're really stretching to project more than what is actually on the page - which is a close sibling relationship, only because of the leaked letter.  The scrapped five year gap puts the final nail in the Jon/Arya coffin.  She's just too young in the series, even if GRRM still wanted to give them the tortured feelings plot.  

 

GRRM said despite scraping the 5 year gap he would still do what he wanted with characters like Arya and Dany (who would have benefited from the gap) and pointed out in particular that Arya was mentally a lot older than most 40-year olds in his book. That if a 12 year old had to conquer the world then that so be it. Also look into grrm's concepts of "child women". Arya's Mercy chapter is very dark, grown up and adult for her age and she still hasn't flowered yet. Grrm confirmed she will in Winds. How old was Dany when she is betrothed to Drogo? Barely a year older than Arya is in Dance. 

The jealousy and torment grrm mentioned in the Outline was actually playing out with Jon vs Ramsey in Dance (the last book that came out, not an early one, just want to repeat that so you aren't confused) Note: grrm wanted Arya to arrive at the Wall in the outline (but he needed her more in Braavos to grow up and gain skills as well) so an ironic replacement was fArya arriving to Jon instead. Remember, grrm had the overall ending already set BEFORE he wrote the outline to his publisher. You know he's keeping the original ending. If Jon/Arya end up together in the end - than how they get there - the whole middle chunk of story - can change and adapt to grrm's imagination. At the end of the story, his broad strokes are clear in his mind. He re-confirmed this fact in an interview earlier this year that he is keeping the original ending he had from 1991 (years before the Outline). 

Quote

I also don't think that every throwaway line in this series is prophecy, or foreshadowing. ...

I don't know when he changed his mind about Jon/Arya, but all of the clues that I know of came early in the series, and it's clear he's chosen a different path at this point.

The clues that you know of are obviously severely lacking or you completely over-looked them (perhaps on purpose) for obvious reasons.

Some relevant quotes from the last book:

Jon is warging Ghost while he sleeps, his wolf has travelled South of the Wall to hunt and do whatever he does when he goes missing. Look who is near by, Nymeria and her army of wolves... And we know what Arya is doing a continent away warging Nymeria while she sleeps as well.

In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself. - Jon, ADWD

 

The scenes where he reads the letter about Arya marrying Ramsey and looks physically sick. Remember Jon previously heard news of Sansa marrying Tyrion and there is zero reaction. Jon was more interested in Tyrion's Kinslaying. The shock that Arya is even alive was hard for him to take.ff

I'll include more in rest of this reply.

 

On 09/07/2016 at 10:36 AM, Julia H. said:

Arya is family to Jon and he thinks of her as his little sister. This is one of the closest and most beautiful relationships in the books, but it doesn't have to turn into romantic love. ...

Then when he thought he had lost his whole family, he got news that Arya, his most loved sibling, was alive, although in the dirty hands of a not so desirable husband-to-be. Later he got word that his "little sister" was on the run, basically running to him for help, alone in mortal danger with no hope of being helped by anyone else. Jon is by nature a protector. Shielding people from mortal danger is his chosen profession. Refusing to be the last refuge of his little sister in this situation is very far from giving up the privileges of belonging to a powerful and prestigious family, it is also very different from not helping someone who already has an army or from giving up taking revenge for the dead for a more important cause. 

Jon/Arya have a stronger connection. Jon heard about Sansa marrying Tyrion and there was no on page reaction. He heard Stannis call her a Lannister and Jon doesn't react at all, like he literally doesn't care. Why not even spare a thought at the very least? Yet he receives the letter about Arya's pending marriage to Ramsey and Jon is immediately reacting, allowing his emotions to overtake him, he looks physically sick reading the letter. He is tormented by the whole ordeal in a way that is different to everything that has happened to the Starks. Jon knows about the Bolton's and their flaying/torturing tendencies. Yet Jon's fears go straight to something else. He thinks about Arya during her bedding with Ramsey and thinking she will fight him: 

'but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton’s bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she’ll fight him.'

'Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true'

Lonley, lovely, and lethal. He freed thousands of wildlings so that Mance would save Arya. Northmen gather to March and save Ned's little girl from her prison in WInterfell. Jon makes plans to have her sent to Braavos where she will be more safe. Oh grrm. Jon & Arya are so insync with Arya already in Braavos, alone and losing herself. It's just so tragic. 

 

When the girl mistaken for Arya finally arrives, the imagery grrm provokes in Jon is very striking:

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

“Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.

 

Jon's vows of relinquishing his family is so completely broken by the last book. It's haunting him in Dance:

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? Arya Underfoot. Her face was always dirty. Would she still have that little sword he’d had Mikken forge for her? Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true. Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

Arya is Braavos wondering the same thing and scared Jon will never recognize Blind Beth.

 

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason.He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

 

Jon's last thought before dying, Stick them with the pointy end. Before falling into the snow and feeling cold. 

 

It's interesting that you keep repeating the "little sister" line yet grrm has Arya thinking Jon will have to call her something else. Or Jon wondering if Arya was ever sister to begin with? Jon's not bothered with brother/sister relations during a conversation with Ygritte. You have Sansa wondering if Arya is a bastard like Jon. And we have the fandom knowing for almost certain that Jon & Arya are definitely not siblings. So it's all very curious. 

I just love how much Jon appreciates Arya:

Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she’s just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth. - Jon, ADWD

Arya has the Stark name – minus the baggage - something that might help Jon later down the line. Arya/Jon are 2 characters grrm created very early on, has said their stories are integral to asoiaf, and Arya in particular is grrm's second favorite character (most favorite female character) has chapters in every book released in the series, and both Jon/Arya impact eachother's storylines in big ways.

On 09/07/2016 at 6:45 AM, The Wull said:

You're right that I am not in George's head and that I shouldn't have said what his intentions are.  I should have said something like, "From what George has actually put to page from AGoT to ADwD, there is currently no indication that Jon and Arya's relationship will prove to be anything other than a close sibling relationship."  

Jon and Arya ending up together would be quite a bombshell to drop in an epilogue.  If it's going to happen, it's going to need a lot more thought, and a lot more exploration than a single chapter could possibly provide.  I just don't see anyone possibly being satisfied with, "Oh by the way, Jon and Arya are Lord and Lady Stark now and have four wonderful children, all named Brandon."

As for prophecy, I'm just not convinced that Ned's line rises to the level of prophecy. After all, Sansa called Arya Horse-face.  Does this mean that she'll skin-change a horse, or use a horse's face to infiltrate a castle? Sansa is arguably more in tune with magic and the Old Gods than Ned, being a warg, and more of a main character.  It's a ridiculous example, but I can't see how you can count Ned's line foreshadowing, while saying Sansa's means nothing if you're being consistent.  

I guess we'll all see how it plays out together, and of course it isn't impossible, but it's certainly not likely.  

1. They are not even siblings. 

2. Your lack of ability in writing this plot is not Geroge's problem. The fact that you can't doesn't mean it won't be done. 

3. The horseface taunting is even more interesting when you factor in what the show does with it. 

Foreshadowing between Margaery & Arya in the Pigface/HorsefaceQueen story:

Margaery: My cousin Alanna was the most beautiful girl I'd ever seen. When I was twelve, I was all elbows and knees and Alanna looked like a goddess sent to torture me. Pigface, she called me.

Sansa: Pigface? That's ridiculous.

Margaery: I think it had something to do with my nose. Whenever she passed me in the halls, she'd oink. (Arya was called horseface and neighed at just like Marg)

___

Note the description of 12 year old Marg: all eblows and knees. Same way Jon and others describe Arya. We know Arya was bullied by both Sansa and her friend Jeyne when they called her horseface. 

They continue the scene....

Sansa: So what happened to Alanna?

Margaery: Oh, she grew up to be the most beautiful woman and married a handsome lord, and they have darling children and live in a castle by the sea. It's all terribly frustrating.

Sansa: I'm sure she's jealous of you now. You'll be married here in the capital and she will have to come watch and pretend to be happy that you're queen.

___

 

Marg & Arya have both relied on their wits and other elements of their personalities and skills to make up for not looking like the typical beauty at that age. But Marg grew out of his this awkward phase and became the Queen Alanna has to one day serve. Despite the childhood torment, who really won in the end? 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

24 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Foreshadowing between Margaery & Arya in the Pigface/HorsefaceQueen story:

Margaery: My cousin Alanna was the most beautiful girl I'd ever seen. When I was twelve, I was all elbows and knees and Alanna looked like a goddess sent to torture me. Pigface, she called me.

Sansa: Pigface? That's ridiculous.

Margaery: I think it had something to do with my nose. Whenever she passed me in the halls, she'd oink. (Arya was called horseface and neighed at just like Marg)

___

Note the description of 12 year old Marg: all eblows and knees. Same way Jon and others describe Arya. We know Arya was bullied by both Sansa and her friend Jeyne when they called her horseface. 

They continue the scene....

Sansa: So what happened to Alanna?

Margaery: Oh, she grew up to be the most beautiful woman and married a handsome lord, and they have darling children and live in a castle by the sea. It's all terribly frustrating.

Sansa: I'm sure she's jealous of you now. You'll be married here in the capital and she will have to come watch and pretend to be happy that you're queen.

___

 

Marg & Arya have both relied on their wits and other elements of their personalities and skills to make up for not looking like the typical beauty at that age. But Marg grew out of his this awkward phase and became the Queen Alanna has to one day serve. Despite the childhood torment, who really won in the end? 

 

You do know that this part you quoted is a tv only dialogue. This never happens in the books and Arya is not a "horseface" in the show. You can't use this as proof for anything and especially in the book threads trying to make your point. There isn't even a cousin Alanna in the books.

I can appreciate your points and discussion, even if we see things differently, but this drags down your arguments.

[rhoynestar]

8 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Arya has the Stark name – minus the baggage - something that might help Jon later down the line. Arya/Jon are 2 characters grrm created very early on, has said their stories are integral to asoiaf, and Arya in particular is grrm's second favorite character (most favorite female character) has chapters in every book released in the series, and both Jon/Arya impact eachother's storylines in big ways.

I originally thought Jon/Ayra was not a possibility, but was actually quite convinced from your post, and previous posts, that Jon's emotional attachment to Arya might amount to something later in the story arc of the books if not the show. Thanks for putting up these detailed posts.

But one question I do want to raise is: even if Jon has/develops feelings for Arya, does anyone see Arya reciprocating based on her current emotional state? And will circumstances bringing them close enough in the future to develop mutual feelings? 

Certainly they have a strong emotional connection (sibling or otherwise) and Arya hangs onto memories of Jon and Jon's gift Needle. But they were separated when Arya was very young, so Arya's thoughts of Jon are nowhere near as physical or close to non-sibling love as Jon's thoughts of Arya. Also her reactions toward other males around her (Gendry, J'aqen) are actually much more physically based and closer to adult emotions. I'd say Jon will be much more inclined to fall in love with Arya than Arya with Jon. And we know Arya -- she's not likely to enter into a loveless marriage, especially if she loves someone else. Also Arya is taking a good bit of time getting to Jon, both in the books and the show. I think the chance of her meeting Jon before he meets Dany or another love interest, and she falls in love with someone else, is pretty slim. 

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Ha Ha.  Too funny and I love it.  Thank you for the laugh.  Please make up some more.

1. Jon + Clegane
2. Jon + Bolton

 

To the bolded. Please don't. 

These make believe house words are neither funny, or needed. 

This is not the thread for such childish, stupid things. Go make a thread for silly stuff like that and stop crowding the thread with this. It's annoying. 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You do know that this part you quoted is a tv only dialogue. This never happens in the books and Arya is not a "horseface" in the show. You can't use this as proof for anything and especially in the book threads trying to make your point. There isn't even a cousin Alanna in the books.

I can appreciate your points and discussion, even if we see things differently, but this drags down your arguments.

Yes I know it happens in Season 3. My point of interest was d&d going out of their way to include this parallel. They do know more about the story arcs of the main characters and planting such foreshadowing is something d&d seem to take great pleasure in doing. 

 

1 hour ago, rhoynestar said:

I originally thought Jon/Ayra was not a possibility, but was actually quite convinced from your post, and previous posts, that Jon's emotional attachment to Arya might amount to something later in the story arc of the books if not the show. Thanks for putting up these detailed posts.

But one question I do want to raise is: even if Jon has/develops feelings for Arya, does anyone see Arya reciprocating based on her current emotional state? And will circumstances bringing them close enough in the future to develop mutual feelings? 

Certainly they have a strong emotional connection (sibling or otherwise) and Arya hangs onto memories of Jon and Jon's gift Needle. But they were separated when Arya was very young, so Arya's thoughts of Jon are nowhere near as physical or close to non-sibling love as Jon's thoughts of Arya. Also her reactions toward other males around her (Gendry, J'aqen) are actually much more physically based and closer to adult emotions. I'd say Jon will be much more inclined to fall in love with Arya than Arya with Jon. And we know Arya -- she's not likely to enter into a loveless marriage, especially if she loves someone else. Also Arya is taking a good bit of time getting to Jon, both in the books and the show. I think the chance of her meeting Jon before he meets Dany or another love interest, and she falls in love with someone else, is pretty slim. 

Very good points!

I think Arya's thoughts aren't as physical or non-sibling manly due to her not flowering yet. That's something we can judge better in the next book when she becomes a maiden. 

Skinny as they were, her legs were strong and springy and growing longer every day. She was glad of that. A water dancer needs good legs. Blind Beth was no water dancer, but she would not be Beth forever. - Arya, ADWD

 

Also, it might be easier for Jon to get over the sibling-barrier with his feelings due to his Targ nature. Perhaps that will change with Arya once she learns they are just cousins, something Stark's are comfortable with. 

Ygritte has just finished telling Jon who she lost her virginity to.

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

[Ygritte] punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

“Longspear’s not your brother.” (Jon, A Storm of Swords) 

Yes. And neither is Arya. Jon is not bothered one bit. lol

 

Arya's mind is being played with while she is with the Kindly Man. Yet still, so easily she reverts back to type:

Jon hiding his emotions, pained but hidden:

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. (Arya, A Game of Thrones)

Fastword to the last book, despite being deep in her FM brainwashing, still her mind is entwined with him:

She almost bit her lip again, but this time she caught herself and stopped. My face is a dark pool, hiding everything, showing nothing. (The Ugly Little Girl, A Dance with Dragons)

 

And grrm has both Jon & Arya wondering about what they are to eachother. It's all getting a bit murky.

She wondered if [Jon] would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. (Arya, A Storm of Swords)

In that same book, grrm has Jon wondering...

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered.Was she ever? (Jon, A Storm of Swords) 

 

Even Theon recalls how close Jon was to Arya when he reflects on fArya. Also, have you considered how grrm has the litter of direwolves playing out similar roles? Ghost was the outcast of the litter, but Nymeria sought him out and was close to him. Later, Ghost does the same even when they have been separated for years. Nymeria stops, perhaps sensing him as well? She starts to sing to the moon. It was said that Nymeria would kill any male that tried to mount her. Winter will come in the next book, and that wolf mating season. Perhaps Nymeria is also not ready to mate because Arya has yet to flower. It's hinted that she is moving North in Arya's Winds chapter. Judging by the show, it's possibly that once Arya leaves the Braavos, she will go North as well. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Yes I know it happens in Season 3. My point of interest was d&d going out of their way to include this parallel. They do know more about the story arcs of the main characters and planting such foreshadowing is something d&d seem to take great pleasure in doing. 

 

The show has a way of taking one meaning and mixing it up and re-writing it for someone else in another arc. I could accept this as a parallel if we knew, in that media form, that Arya was referenced as a horse at all. She never was, so that parallel doesn't apply to her.

[a black swan]

23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The show has a way of taking one meaning and mixing it up and re-writing it for someone else in another arc. I could accept this as a parallel if we knew, in that media form, that Arya was referenced as a horse at all. She never was, so that parallel doesn't apply to her.

Right. So because it wasn't mentioned in the show, Show!Arya no longer has that element in her story. Despite it fitting exactly with Arya & Marg's childhood experiences, even down to the verbiage used to describe their 12 year old selves. Just completely erased from show!Arya's history. She never experienced childhood bullying from her sister and Jeyne Poole. Right. Got'cha. 

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Right. So because it wasn't mentioned in the show, Show!Arya no longer has that element in her story. Despite it fitting exactly with Arya & Marg's childhood experiences, even down to the verbiage used to describe their 12 year old selves. Just completely erased from show!Arya's history. She never experienced childhood bullying from her sister and Jeyne Poole. Right. Got'cha. 

Jeesh, Over exaggerate much? Since when is ALL of Arya's history wrapped up in looking like a horse? Chill out.

We also never saw Arya with the horse connection to Lyanna. So yes, the show erased that from her history. Sorry for that

We never saw weasel soup, where Arya actually rescues and frees the northern men. THAT is more important than being called a horseface.

We never see Arya warg so much as a fly. I'd think THAT would be more important to her history than be a horseface.

We never see Arya learn a thing in Braavos. Not poisons, not cooking, not learning multiple languages, not being blind and having heightened skinchanger senses, not the lying game- the essence to being a convincing assassin, not being greeted by Death himself at the HoBW and literally accepting death by eating the worm. ALL of these things are more important to Arya's character and history than being a horseface.

And again, this points out that the books are canon, any other source is not. There is no overlap and author and showrunners have said time and again.

[Julia H.]

2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

 

Jon/Arya have a stronger connection. Jon heard about Sansa marrying Tyrion and there was no on page reaction. He heard Stannis call her a Lannister and Jon doesn't react at all, like he literally doesn't care. Why not even spare a thought at the very least? Yet he receives the letter about Arya's pending marriage to Ramsey and Jon is immediately reacting, allowing his emotions to overtake him, he looks physically sick reading the letter. He is tormented by the whole ordeal in a way that is different to everything that has happened to the Starks. Jon knows about the Bolton's and their flaying/torturing tendencies. Yet Jon's fears go straight to something else. He thinks about Arya during her bedding with Ramsey and thinking she will fight him: 

'but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton’s bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she’ll fight him.'

'Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true'

Lonley, lovely, and lethal. He freed thousands of wildlings so that Mance would save Arya. Northmen gather to March and save Ned's little girl from her prison in WInterfell. Jon makes plans to have her sent to Braavos where she will be more safe. Oh grrm. Jon & Arya are so insync with Arya already in Braavos, alone and losing herself. It's just so tragic. 

 

When the girl mistaken for Arya finally arrives, the imagery grrm provokes in Jon is very striking:

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

“Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.

 

Jon's vows of relinquishing his family is so completely broken by the last book. It's haunting him in Dance:

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? Arya Underfoot. Her face was always dirty. Would she still have that little sword he’d had Mikken forge for her? Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true. Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

Arya is Braavos wondering the same thing and scared Jon will never recognize Blind Beth.

 

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason.He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

 

Jon's last thought before dying, Stick them with the pointy end. Before falling into the snow and feeling cold. 

 

It's interesting that you keep repeating the "little sister" line yet grrm has Arya thinking Jon will have to call her something else. Or Jon wondering if Arya was ever sister to begin with? Jon's not bothered with brother/sister relations during a conversation with Ygritte. You have Sansa wondering if Arya is a bastard like Jon. And we have the fandom knowing for almost certain that Jon & Arya are definitely not siblings. So it's all very curious. 

I just love how much Jon appreciates Arya:

Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she’s just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth. - Jon, ADWD

Arya has the Stark name – minus the baggage - something that might help Jon later down the line. Arya/Jon are 2 characters grrm created very early on, has said their stories are integral to asoiaf, and Arya in particular is grrm's second favorite character (most favorite female character) has chapters in every book released in the series, and both Jon/Arya impact eachother's storylines in big ways.

Take it easy, I will be the first to acknowledge that Jon's relationship with Arya is much closer than Jon's relationship with Sansa, that it's closer than his relationship with any other of his siblings. If GRRM wants to take it in a romantic direction, so be it. For the moment, in my opinion, their relationship totally makes sense as a very close sibling relationship and love.

Arya being closer than Sansa to Jon and Arya being his favourite sister can explain why Sansa's marriage does not affect him so strongly, but there are some further reasons.

When Stannis mentions Sansa as Lady Lannister, it is probably not the first time Jon has heard the news - I'm sure he wanted to find out every possible bit of information about his family as soon as he could. But you are right that we are not told of his reaction to the news, which can only mean that it was nothing as devastating as the news of Arya will be. Even if he was somewhat upset, GRRM wouldn't show that to us because it would take away from the effect (on the reader) of his reaction when he heard about Arya's marriage. 

However, let's also consider the essence of the news of the two marriages.

Sansa was married to Tyrion. Now, Tyrion is the one Lannister who Jon had called a friend. Given that Sansa had originally gone to King's Landing to eventually marry Joffrey, her marriage to Tyrion could be considered good news from Jon's viewpoint. Joffrey had killed their father. Tyrion was known by Jon as a fairly decent human being, if not exactly Prince Charming. Sansa being in Tyrion's care must have seemed much better to Jon than Sansa being a hostage with no protection in King's Landing. I mean, Ned was dead, Robb was dead, Bran, Rickon and Arya were thought to be dead, Lord Mormont along with so many other black brothers were dead, Ygritte was dead, and Sansa was - married into the royal family. Why on earth should Jon weep for Sansa of all people? 

When he got news of "Arya's" marriage to Ramsay, part of the shock must have been that his little sister was alive and in Winterfell. But then he was being married to Ramsay Bolton. Ramsay is not Tyrion, Ramsay is much, much worse than Tyrion - a rapist, a torturer, a psychopath. Whatever Jon had heard of him, I'm sure it was nothing nice. Practically, it's the difference between hearing that your sister got married to your former friend against the wishes of your family and hearing that your sister has been kidnapped by a psychopathic murderer and rapist. Any half-decent brother would be very upset. 

Yes, there is a similarity between Arya and Alys Karstark, which almost breaks Jon's heart, but Jon doesn't start having romantic thoughts about Alys. On the contrary, he arranges her marriage and he officially gives her away at her wedding, which is typically a father's job.

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jeesh, Over exaggerate much? Since when is ALL of Arya's history wrapped up in looking like a horse? Chill out.

It's not. Who even said that? What? 

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We also never saw Arya with the horse connection to Lyanna. So yes, the show erased that from her history. Sorry for that

The horse connection to Lyanna? 

The connections were more than covered in the show. 

http://i.imgur.com/CWf7Efy.jpg

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We never saw weasel soup, where Arya actually rescues and frees the northern men. THAT is more important than being called a horseface.

We never see Arya warg so much as a fly. I'd think THAT would be more important to her history than be a horseface.

We never see Arya learn a thing in Braavos. Not poisons, not cooking, not learning multiple languages, not being blind and having heightened skinchanger senses, not the lying game- the essence to being a convincing assassin, not being greeted by Death himself at the HoBW and literally accepting death by eating the worm. ALL of these things are more important to Arya's character and history than being a horseface.

And again, this points out that the books are canon, any other source is not. There is no overlap and author and showrunners have said time and again.

Actually you know I can't take this post seriously. 

You actually wasted all this time trying to disprove what? That the horseface bullying is the only important thing to Arya's character? I never said that and I, for the record, don't not think that. I hope you feel better now.

You're taking this very personally. Like why? 

[kissdbyfire]

Quick question. Why is the show and elements from the show being discussed here?

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Why on earth should Jon weep for Sansa of all people? 

Weep? No. Spare a thought? Perhaps. But grrm didn't even give us that. Jon learns of Tyrion killing Tywin. Wouldn't that have an affect on Sansa's future? Nope. Literally only cares about Tyrion. 

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When he got news of "Arya's" marriage to Ramsay, part of the shock must have been that his little sister was alive and in Winterfell. But then he was being married to Ramsay Bolton. Ramsay is not Tyrion, Ramsay is much, much worse than Tyrion - a rapist, a torturer, a psychopath. Whatever Jon had heard of him, I'm sure it was nothing nice.

Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son’s wedding to…” His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father. (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

Exactly. I would agree he was shocked about her being alive. But it would be logical to assume the distress he feels is due to her situation: A bride to Ramsay Bolton. 

Twice Jon worries about her safety and it's revolves around something specific.

Jon knows about the Bolton's and their flaying/torturing tendencies. Yet Jon's fears go straight to something else. He thinks about Arya during her bedding with Ramsay and thinking she will fight him: 

'but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton’s bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she’ll fight him.'

----

'Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true'

 

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Practically, it's the difference between hearing that your sister got married to your former friend against the wishes of your family and hearing that your sister has been kidnapped by a psychopathic murderer and rapist. Any half-decent brother would be very upset. 

Upset? Jon is murderous: 

His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily. (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

 

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Yes, there is a similarity between Arya and Alys Karstark, which almost breaks Jon's heart, but Jon doesn't start having romantic thoughts about Alys. On the contrary, he arranges her marriage and he officially gives her away at her wedding, which is typically a father's job.

No one is suggesting he has romantic thoughts about Alys. I just the Winter's Lady imagery was beautiful written by grrm. Jon pities the girl but doesn't help her escape her fate. He gives her away.

Jon wonder what would happen if Arya was brought back to him. He does not want her to have the same fate as Alys:

He could not keep [Arya] here with him, no matter how much he might want to. […] Nor was he about to turn her over to Stannis or Melisandre. The king would only want to marry her to one of his own men, Horpe or Massey or Godry Giantslayer, and the gods alone knew what use the red woman might want to make of her. (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

That's why Jon makes plans for Arya to be taken to Braavos. Aww!

Alys was never Arya - Mel's flames were misinterpreted. And Jeyne Poole as fArya. Jamie and Theon and anyone who knew the missing Stark girl - saw right through it. All these pretenders. These Northmen marching for a girl that is really across the sea alone and thinking she is unwanted. 

[loranza]

I would have said danaerys but Jon likes redheads

That said his fate should be king of the north at winterfell. Maybe lady mormont after she grows up.

The chat bar blocks my view

ergrll

[The Fattest Leech]

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Quick question. Why is the show and elements from the show being discussed here?

Because apparently it is canon now??? 

[bemused]

??? indeed.

Can we please keep the show out of this thread ? It's a different story.

 

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Because apparently it is canon now??? 

LOLOLOLOL

What planet are we talking about here?

[The Wull]

@DutchArya

You've said so many things that you couldn't possibly back up unless you're reading over George's shoulder as he writes.  For example:

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 Note: grrm wanted Arya to arrive at the Wall in the outline (but he needed her more in Braavos to grow up and gain skills as well) so an ironic replacement was fArya arriving to Jon instead. Remember, grrm had the overall ending already set BEFORE he wrote the outline to his publisher. You know he's keeping the original ending. If Jon/Arya end up together in the end - than how they get there - the whole middle chunk of story - can change and adapt to grrm's imagination. At the end of the story, his broad strokes are clear in his mind. He re-confirmed this fact in an interview earlier this year that he is keeping the original ending he had from 1991 (years before the Outline). 

You can't just state as fact your opinion on GRRM's writing process/what you think he'll write.  The fact that he knows the ending has absolutely zero to do with Arya's fate, or whether she ends up with Jon.  

Serious question.  Do you have siblings? If so, can you honestly say that you favor all of them equally?  All of your examples are things that an overprotective brother can easily feel for a little sister.  Believe me.  It sounds like to me you may have a blind spot in this area, and don't realize it.  

Leave the show garbage in the show forum.  It's only feeding your confirmation bias, and against the rules anyhow.  

[Tijgy]

On 7-7-2016 at 3:56 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

ALWAYS trust your direwolf

What does it mean if your girlfriend doesnt like the direwolf? Robb, Robb, why did you not listen to your direwolf. 

Anyway I also prefer Val. Sansa and Arya are Jon's siblings. I believe how they grew up matters much and I am really not into incest. And I am totally not a fan of Dany&Jon. 

And look at this: 

- Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world.

- It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely

He is certainly attracted to her. 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

What does it mean if your girlfriend doesnt like the direwolf? Robb, Robb, why did you not listen to your direwolf. 

Anyway I also prefer Val. Sansa and Arya are Jon's siblings. I believe how they grew up matters much and I am really not into incest. And I am totally not a fan of Dany&Jon. 

And look at this: 

- Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world.

- It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely

He is certainly attracted to her. 

It's a joke around these parts that if your girlfriend doesn't like your dog, or your dog doesn't like your girlfriend, it's time for a new girlfriend because this one can't be trusted.

Ghost likes Val with no prompting. Ghost only goes to Mel because Mel was casting spells at the time. Just before this scene Jon describes smelling strange scents in the air.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte. [this was Mel under a glamour]

 

~~Then it goes to this~~

"Yes, but …"

"Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.