Ser Middlefinger Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 This is just something I have been thinking about for awhile and would like your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ned. While Ned always tried to be honourable, he also didn't forget about doing the right thing. Barristan, though, was concerned about his honourable reputation a bit too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Lords Bane Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 The Ned, hands down. Barristan has no honor. Every member of the Aerys II KG cared to uphold their reputation but every sense of honor was striped away the first time Aerys raped and brutalized his queen and they choose to do nothing. It was soooo much easier to uphold their vows as KG than those of a knight. In a twist of events i would so much love to see what these sworn brother would do if their king ordered them to kill Rhaegar or Rhaegar's children. I would so much loved to see Barristan-called-the-Bold make a difficult choice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, Storm Lords Bane said: The Ned, hands down. Barristan has no honor. Every member of the Aerys II KG cared to uphold their reputation but every sense of honor was striped away the first time Aerys raped and brutalized his queen and they choose to do nothing. It was soooo much easier to uphold their vows as KG than those of a knight. In a twist of events i would so much love to see what these sworn brother would do if their king ordered them to kill Rhaegar or Rhaegar's children. I would so much loved to see Barristan-called-the-Bold make a difficult choice.... I agree. Barristan is a moral coward when Ned risked everything in order to do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Eddard easily. While Barristan is more honourable than the vast majority of characters in the series. Whenever faced between the honourable decision and the dutiful one, he compromises his honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurid Jester Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ned. A quote from the show is perfect. Not sure if it's in the book. Eddard Stark: You served him well when serving was safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy Hill Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 The Ned. Barristan never stopped Aerys from burning/raping people, but when he was forced to retire he found it in him to defy the king. I don't agree with his priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runaway Penguin Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I guess any answer regarding honor is subjective. For one... Jon Snow breaking his wows with Ygritte. Or did he? What is more important, maintain the letter, or maintain the spirit? Same for Kingsguard - and Jaime's decision to off Hand and King. That single act wasm depending on point of view, extremely dishonorable by murdering people he swore to protect, or extremely honorable - protecting the weak at all costs. Add to that also protecting his family etc. So speaking of Barristan and Ned, depends what oaths and promises you take as more honorable - and it gets us to the cases above. I would guess people who consider Jon oathbreaker would probably take Barristan as more honourable and the other way around - though Barristan de facto betrayed Viserys.. In the end, however, it seems Ser Barristan seen the error of his ways - would be interesting if he met with the Kingslayer after his stint in Mereen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byfort of Corfe Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I guess it seems as though I'm piling on but Ned, easily. Selmy has changed sides how many times? Ned is the one who walks away over the morally reprehensible action that Robert and the Small Council take when they decide to assassinate Dany and her baby. I would note that Selmy never tells Dany about that, oh sure he mentions that they discussed that maybe Jorah would do the job but he really downplays his role. And he never mentions how Ned reacted. Barry tends to expect others to live up to a code of honor that he himself doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurid Jester Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 25 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said: I guess any answer regarding honor is subjective. For one... Jon Snow breaking his wows with Ygritte. Or did he? I'd hardly say getting some mud for his turtle qualifies as breaking his vow. Granted, she would probably consider the two of them married after he stole her so that would qualify. But it all depends on who you ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurid Jester Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 27 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said: I guess it seems as though I'm piling on but Ned, easily. Selmy has changed sides how many times? Ned is the one who walks away over the morally reprehensible action that Robert and the Small Council take when they decide to assassinate Dany and her baby. I would note that Selmy never tells Dany about that, oh sure he mentions that they discussed that maybe Jorah would do the job but he really downplays his role. And he never mentions how Ned reacted. Barry tends to expect others to live up to a code of honor that he himself doesn't. You know, I'd forgotten he was there when they decided to send assassins after her. Funny how he forgot to mention that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byfort of Corfe Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said: You know, I'd forgotten he was there when they decided to send assassins after her. Funny how he forgot to mention that. I think that Barry has hung around Kings and Queens and Targaryens for long enough to realize that if he isn't careful Dany might just have Drogon quick fry him to a crackly crunch. IIRC he says, in front of Dany, to Jorah something to the effect of "there was even talk that you might do the deed", downplaying that he (Selmy)was there and that while Ned objected and walked out Selmy didn't. In fact, had Joffrey not hurt Barristan's pride by sacking him, Barry would still be there in Book 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 38 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said: You know, I'd forgotten he was there when they decided to send assassins after her. Funny how he forgot to mention that. He does speak against it though, stating that murdering Daenerys and her unborn child would be dishonourable. He doesn't take a stand as a solidly as Eddard, but to imply that he supported the idea is ridiculous, just as with Aerys's rapes and burnings, he stayed in line despite not agreeing with the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, Sullen said: Aerys's rapes and burnings, he stayed in line despite not agreeing with the King. What I was always found fascination about this is how the most dishonorable of the KG seemed to be the only one who questions the King's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: What I was always found fascination about this is how the most dishonorable of the KG seemed to be the only one who questions the King's actions. Jaime is simply not as bound to the moral imperatives of Westeros, whether it's honour, loyalty, and duty. That lack of dutifulness and loyalty to the King made him more likely to question the actions of the King, while the other Kingsguard were obligated by those virtues to stay silent about Aerys's atrocities and to ignore them. I'm not sure I'd call Jaime more "moral" than people like Dayne or Barristan, but there certainly is something admirable in his free-thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 5 hours ago, Lurid Jester said: Ned. A quote from the show is perfect. Not sure if it's in the book. Eddard Stark: You served him well when serving was safe. Well, not only it's the wrong source, it's also the wrong person. Ned said it to Jaime, who, indeed, suffered no danger, and turned cloak at the most opportune moment (or so it seemed to the whole world). While Ser Barry, conversely, fought and nearly died on the Trident. Ned never had any reservations regarding Barry the Old's honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byfort of Corfe Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ned would have no part of it, told Robert how wrong it was, Selmy did not. Selmy disapproved but didn't act. nor did Selmy bother to tell Dany that while Ned had left, he had remained. Later, when Dany learns that Arstan is Barristan and of Jorah's treacheries, Barristan points out that they discussed having Jorah do the deed. Jorah protests and frankly with good reason, he may have reported on Dany, he may have spied on her, but at no point did he give any indication that he might kill her, that came from Barristan the Bold. And lets face it, had Joffrey not dismissed Barry from the KG, Barry would have gone right on serving Joffrey as he had served Robert. Barristan had taken the time as well to finish writing his own story in the White Book but he hadn't bothered to write all of Jaime's. Meanwhile he thinks himself the model of chivalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 8 hours ago, Ser Middlefinger said: This is just something I have been thinking about for awhile and would like your thoughts. what is the scale by which you judge their honor-ness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNightzx Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ned, easily. to me, the likes of barristan, rhaegar, ser arthur dayne, mixed honor with their own vanity and ego, they wanted to uphold their honorable status above anything, and hide themselves behind excuses like duty or oaths. or prophecies. Rhaegar wanted to bone lyanna, and dragged the whole bloddy country in a war, the downfall of his family, behind some ancient myth, he is a total bastard, and yet is seem in a somewhat a positive light, i can not understand it. in this light, i think that jaime is even more honorable, in his own twisted way, than barristan True honor, or true knightly valor, is doing what is necessary and right, even at the expense of your own reputation, and that its precisely ned stark life and ned did it twice, in roberts rebellion, and in claiming jon snow as his bastard son. and i`m not a ned stark fan, but the man had honor, hats down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 a better question would be is there anyome more honorable then the Ned? Robb Stark tried buh still failed in comparison..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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