Who was more honorable? Ned Stark or Ser Barristan

[Lurid Jester]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Well, not only it's the wrong source, it's also the wrong person. Ned said it to Jaime, who, indeed, suffered no danger, and turned cloak at the most opportune moment (or so it seemed to the whole world). While Ser Barry, conversely, fought and nearly died on the Trident. Ned never had any reservations regarding Barry the Old's honor.

Never claimed he was talking about/to Selmy, just that the quote was applicable to him just as it was applicable to so many who served the mad king loyally... when it was safe.  

And what do you mean wrong source?  I grabbed the quote from the show (IMDb specifically) because I wasn't sure if it was a verbatim lift from the books as I was at work. 

[The Wolves]

54 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

Ned, easily. 

to me, the likes of barristan, rhaegar, ser arthur dayne, mixed honor with their own vanity and ego, they wanted to uphold their honorable status above anything, and hide themselves behind excuses like duty or oaths. or prophecies.

Rhaegar wanted to bone lyanna, and dragged the whole bloddy country in a war, the downfall of his family, behind some ancient myth, he is a total bastard, and yet is seem in a somewhat a positive light, i can not understand it.

in this light, i think that jaime is even more honorable, in his own twisted way, than barristan.
 

At least when Aerys was going total batshit crazy it was Rhaegar and Rhaegar alone who wanted to remove Aerys. It was Rhaegar who looked at his father and knew that he needed to be removed. He wasn't Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully who didn't give a shit what this insane king was doing as long as it didn't affect them. Rhaegar didn't try to use Aerys' madness for gain like people at court did. Rhaegar made mistakes, everybody does in this series, but don't act like he was some terrible human being when we don't know the whole stories. 

 

And Jaime has never been nor will ever be more "honorable" than Barristan even in his own twisted way. 

[Bironic]

3 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

At least when Aerys was going total batshit crazy it was Rhaegar and Rhaegar alone who wanted to remove Aerys. It was Rhaegar who looked at his father and knew that he needed to be removed. He wasn't Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully who didn't give a shit what this insane king was doing as long as it didn't affect them. Rhaegar didn't try to use Aerys' madness for gain like people at court did. Rhaegar made mistakes, everybody does in this series, but don't act like he was some terrible human being when we don't know the whole stories. 

 

And Jaime has never been nor will ever be more "honorable" than Barristan even in his own twisted way. 

I think a lot of people wanted to get rid off Aerys by the end of his reign. The tourney of harrenhal is believd by many to be an event where all these anti-aerys lords could meet with their leader: rhaegar. Amongst those present were Robert, Ned and as far as I remember Jon Arryn.

We don't know what motivated Rhaegar to try to get rid off Aerys, but I doubt it was completely unselfish. BTW I actually like Rhaegar, and I am of the opinion that Aerys and not Rhaegars actions started Robert's rebellion.

Well Jaime was obviously concerned about Aerys behaviour, he wanted to intervene when Aerys raped his wife, and it was the more "honorable" Jonothor Darry who restrained him. The burning of KL was too much for Jaime. I wonder how Barristan Selmy would have acted in this situation. I am not saying that Jaime is more honorable than Barristan, since the latter never trie to kill little kids as far as we know, I am just saying that Jaime has honor as well and that Barristan doesn't have that much honor as he himself thinks.

So for me Ned has way more honor than Selmy does.

 

[Forlong the Fat]

5 hours ago, Sullen said:

He does speak against it though, stating that murdering Daenerys and her unborn child would be dishonourable.

He doesn't take a stand as a solidly as Eddard, but to imply that he supported the idea is ridiculous, just as with Aerys's rapes and burnings, he stayed in line despite not agreeing with the King. 

In addition, Barristan doesn't have nearly the status Ned has.  Ned is free to quit and go back to Winterfell and be Lord of the North (assuming something crazy doesn't happen like Robert getting killed by a boar.).  Barristan's relatively minor defiance when he's fired very nearly gets him killed. He is not as free as Ned is to tell the king he's wrong, mush less to resign a position he took a solemn oath to serve until death.

 

I agree that Ned is more honorable, but Barristan's actions are fairly understandable.

[The Wolves]

18 minutes ago, Bironic said:

I think a lot of people wanted to get rid off Aerys by the end of his reign. The tourney of harrenhal is believd by many to be an event where all these anti-aerys lords could meet with their leader: rhaegar. Amongst those present were Robert, Ned and as far as I remember Jon Arryn.

We don't know what motivated Rhaegar to try to get rid off Aerys, but I doubt it was completely unselfish. BTW I actually like Rhaegar, and I am of the opinion that Aerys and not Rhaegars actions started Robert's rebellion.

Well Jaime was obviously concerned about Aerys behaviour, he wanted to intervene when Aerys raped his wife, and it was the more "honorable" Jonothor Darry who restrained him. The burning of KL was too much for Jaime. I wonder how Barristan Selmy would have acted in this situation. I am not saying that Jaime is more honorable than Barristan, since the latter never trie to kill little kids as far as we know, I am just saying that Jaime has honor as well and that Barristan doesn't have that much honor as he himself thinks.

So for me Ned has way more honor than Selmy does.

 

I also think people wanted to get rid of Aerys because of how he was affecting THEM and the possibility that he would come after them(which he did)but I don't think they cared on how it would affect the country as a whole. Aerys was fine being batshit crazy as long as he didn't go after the great lords. 

And no Rhaegar's reasons for trying to get Aerys off the throne wasn't totally unselfish he was probably doing it to protect himself and his family because obviously Aerys was turning on him. But he at least recognized that Aerys needed to go because of how far gone he was which I still say that none of the great lords cared enough until Aerys' madness touched them. 

We never got the other Kingsguards' thoughts so we don't know how they feel, though Barristen does express regret over Aerys. We also don't know what the other KG would have done in Jaime's role in KL but I would like to say that they wouldn't stand by and let 500,000 people burn. I'm also reluctant to give Jaime any praise for what he did in KL because: he still stood by as Aerys raped and abused Rhaella, he stood by and watched Aerys burn innocent men, yet it was easy for him to kill a man while his father and his army was outside slaughtering and raping innocent men, women, and children. Jaime is gross. 

[BlueNightzx]

Double post

[BlueNightzx]

53 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

At least when Aerys was going total batshit crazy it was Rhaegar and Rhaegar alone who wanted to remove Aerys. It was Rhaegar who looked at his father and knew that he needed to be removed. He wasn't Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully who didn't give a shit what this insane king was doing as long as it didn't affect them. Rhaegar didn't try to use Aerys' madness for gain like people at court did. Rhaegar made mistakes, everybody does in this series, but don't act like he was some terrible human being when we don't know the whole stories. 

 

And Jaime has never been nor will ever be more "honorable" than Barristan even in his own twisted way. 

And how those great lords would know of aerys madness prior the tourney at harrenhal?? at this point some would say that his madness were rumors or gossip, and thanks to the diligent work of tywin lannister, the administration of the realm was in good shape, even after he left, so yes, to the lords of the north, the vale, dorne, the kingdom was fine. 

the first real show of madness to the whole realm was the murder of Rickard Stark, and then we rebellion came not long after.

if blame is to be put on some great lord for not acting sooner, then should be on tywin lannister, and even that i would not fully agree, since we know from the World of ice and fire, that when aerys was kidnapped, tywin wanted to storm the city, to force them to kill aerys and replace him with Rhaegar;

to me, the fault of allowing Aerys to do his atrocities were his small council and the kingsguard.

I still think jaime is truer a knight than barristan.

[The Wolves]

29 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

And how those great lords would know of aerys madness prior the tourney at harrenhal?? at this point some would say that his madness were rumors or gossip, and thanks to the diligent work of tywin lannister, the administration of the realm was in good shape, even after he left, so yes, to the lords of the north, the vale, dorne, the kingdom was fine. 

the first real show of madness to the whole realm was the murder of Rickard Stark, and then we rebellion came not long after.

if blame is to be put on some great lord for not acting sooner, then should be on tywin lannister, and even that i would not fully agree, since we know from the World of ice and fire, that when aerys was kidnapped, tywin wanted to storm the city, to force them to kill aerys and replace him with Rhaegar;

to me, the fault of allowing Aerys to do his atrocities were his small council and the kingsguard.

I still think jaime is truer a knight than barristan.

Everybody knew Aerys was crazy Harrenhall tourney was just a front row seat to it. 

And if the Kingsguards are being blame by all means blame Jaime Lannister also he was standing with the best of them when Aerys raped his wife and burned multiple men alive. It was only when his life, family, and fellow westernmen were in danger that he decided to kill Aerys while his father was outside murdering, raping and committing other atrocities hundreds of innocent people while he sat on a throne smiling. 

And I can't take anyone serious who says that Jaime is a truer knight than Barristan, the same man who tried to kill a child to cover up his treason, played a major part in causing a civil war, actively tried to kill/maim a child and still has no genuine remorse for anything he's done besides lying to Tyrion. 

[King Ned Stark]

Also, Barristan stood by and did nothing when Ned provided the King's living will.  

@The Wolves, yes, anyone claiming Jaime is better than Barry, in virtually anything, is probably a Jaime fan.  However, I have been down on Barry for years, for reasons already stated.  Had he did nothing when he was released by Joffrey but obey his King, then I would say differently.  

He stood by for Aerys, Ned's death, the tearing up of the will,staying with Robert even with the assassination order, not dying with Aerys's other KG, not telling Dany the FULL truth.

I know you didn't argue all these points, and yes, he is better than Jaime in every way, IMHO.

[BlueNightzx]

I have to disagree, i will not deny that i indeed very much like the character of jaime, but i have some reasons for what i`m saying.

You can say that jaime only killed aerys when his westermen were in danger, and i cannot prove you wrong on this, but i can also point that this was the very first time that jaime was alone with aerys and he was the acting lord commander of the KG in the Red Keep, the former times jaime was subdued to obey the older KG member, first in account of his youth, and second by his respect and admiration of these men.

jaime had no real power to stop aerys back then, before the events of the end of the rebellion, the only he could do was show his disgust and disapproval of aery`s actions to his senior brothers of the KG, what he did in more than one occasion. 

and in any moment, in any of his chapters, he even mention the lives of his soldiers, as a motivation for the killing of aerys and the pyromancers.

i will not fault jaime for attacking ned, jaime is not the smarter guy around, we know that, he, as ned and catelyn, were manipulated by lF`s actions, morally speaking, tyrion`s arrest was unjust, and as a older brother jaime had the right to set things straight with ned.

the only real immoral thing that jaime really did in the novels was the attack on bran, the deal with tyrion and his first wife was tywin's doing.

and jaime is now restoring order in the riverlands, killing rapers, and being an decent and just commander, he doing his duty as a knight to his people.

and what is barristan doing?

he is going to bring fire and blood, 3 dragons and a queen with dreams of revenge to kill and roast the same people he sworn to defend, and i would respect him, if he followed daenerys after the death of aerys, but he bended the knee to robert, and only have gone to dany because cersei fired him from the KG`s,, his personal views of duty and honor exist to satisfy himself, his ideal of duty, and not to protect the lives of his people.

we can see by the dialogue of jaime as lord commander about tommen"if he askes for his horse, bring it to him, if he askes you to kill his horse, call me" that jaime want the KG to have a more open interpretation to the vows, to protect the kingdom, and the king, from himself, instead of blindly following whatever orders are given, as barristan was happy to do.

he himself reflects on this, that if he had left aerys to die in his cell in duskendale, the realm would be better, the actions of barristan, heroic as they can be, in the end were bad for the realm, and the disnohorable actions of jaime, end up being more good to the realm.


 

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, BlueNightzx said:

jaime is now restoring order in the riverlands, killing rapers, and being an decent and just commander, he doing his duty as a knight to his people.

and what is barristan doing?

 and the disnohorable actions of jaime, end up being more good to the realm.


 

Jaime is not just, descent, or a knight. No just men commits treason and cuckolds his king for 15yrs than has three bastard inbreed children and sit them on the throne, directly causing a war. Jaime is not doing his duty while taking kids hostage from Riverlands lords and threatening a baby to take a castle him and his greedy family got with murder, atrocities, and lies. 

Barristen is coming to help free Westeros from the evil Lannister.  

Jaime helped cause TWot5ks. The incest, bastards, trying to kill Bran, killing Ned's men all had a hand in the worst was Westeros have ever seen plus weakened it for a ice zombie apocalypse. These are Jaime's worst deeds,not killing Aerys, but the incest, war, three bastards, Bran and more and yet he regrets little to nothing not the war, he uttered a throwaway line about Bran and that's it. 

 

[TPTWP Timett]

The only person even competing with Ned in the honor Olympics is the Halfhand. Maybe Tormund maybe I can't think of anything dishonorable he's done, but we don't know enough. Plus the tall talker plays by different rules.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

10 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Never claimed he was talking about/to Selmy, just that the quote was applicable to him just as it was applicable to so many who served the mad king loyally... when it was safe. 

I guess we have different definitions of "safe", for me "put himself in harm's way and nearly died" doesn't meet the criteria.

[Lointain]

If we follow the original concept of honour, Barristan is extremly honourable, while Ned fails to be truly honourable.
If we follow the modern concept of honour, Barristan isn't truly honourable, while Ned is extremly honourable.

Of course, remember that "honour", in the beggining is, solely, concept of what should be the correct behavior in battle and war.
What we understand has "honour" today, is a confusion of war rules and peace rules, with moral and ethics mixed.

[Trigger Warning]

If we're really considering Barristan to not be "honourable" for not intervening against his king when not doing so was his duty are we really going to not pull Ned for being "honourable" when he was willing to plunge the whole realm into war for the sake of a true succession and honour. 

Honour is not always morality. 

[Lurid Jester]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I guess we have different definitions of "safe", for me "put himself in harm's way and nearly died" doesn't meet the criteria.

Well, Jamie would have fought and wanted to fight but Rhaegar said no.  It's more, to me, of them standing by while Aerys did horrible things and doing nothing about it because no one was else was.  They were safe Because there was no risk involved in them standing around doing nothing. 

Personally I like Jamie better than Barristan.  Tossing Bran from the tower, and the intent to kill Arya had he found her aside... he did save thousands by killing Aerys. 

Gotta give him a hand for that.  

[Protagoras]

Honor is simply the standards of a society, that must be reached in order for a person to receive respect. The more and the better you follow said standards, the more honorable you are. This also have nothing to do with if the standards are "immoral" or not (because of course they aren´t, since if everyone thought the standards were immoral, they wouldn´t be standards in the first place). 

Honor is not "doing the right thing" nor even to be true to your ideals ie acting with integrity. Honor is WHAT OTHERS think of you. Its about respect and admiration from others.

So, Barristan is more honorable than Ned. In fact, he is famous for it. Ned is pretty decent too, but he can´t really reach Barristans heighs. Yet both are pretty advanced in this category. Both have a very good rep. 

Edit: And, of course, the reason most in this thread say Ned is because we are part of a different culture with different values and make the mistake to judge Ned and Barristans after those and not the ideals of Westeros. In our society, Neds view would be triumphant. 

[Lord Lannister]

I find the notion of honor as a quantifiable unit of measure to be somewhat absurd given the entire notion is wrapped in opinion and will vary from person to person.

That said, I'd have to chose Ned hands down. Barristan did in effect betray the royal house twice. His brothers did their duty even after Rhaegar and Aerys died, but Barristan decided to bend the knee to Robert. It wasn't as if there weren't other Targaryens left. Imagine how Vieserys might have turned out if he had a Barristan mentoring him. Later, after he was dismissed by Joffrey, he decided to disobey his king's will just because he didn't like it.

This really sums up Barristan Selmy for me. He has this mental picture of him being a noble protector and will advance himself within the confines of that picture. He betrayed the Targaryens to keep his job and rise to Lord Commander. He only remembered his duty to House Targaryen after Joffrey exiled him and took away his self-portrait of being a Kingsguard. Coincidentally "remembering" his loyalty got him his job back.

I'm not saying he's a terrible person, but he has his comfort zone and won't act outside of it for the sake of morality unless forced. He was true to the Mad King during his entire reign, he watched Robert eat, drink and whore the realm into debt, and he'd have watched Joffrey beat Sansa daily had he the chance.

[TimJames]

Eddard Stark.

Unlike Semly, Stark doesn't have a "just following orders" mentality. It's a bit jarring that Semly knows about how much damage Aerys and Rhaegar caused to the realm and still regrets serving Robert (who remember ... SAVED HIS LIFE).

Were I in Robert's place, I would have just sent the ungrateful goon to The Wall in disgrace.

[The Wolves]

10 minutes ago, TimJames said:

Eddard Stark.

Unlike Semly, Stark doesn't have a "just following orders" mentality. It's a bit jarring that Semly knows about how much damage Aerys and Rhaegar caused to the realm and still regrets serving Robert (who remember ... SAVED HIS LIFE).

Were I in Robert's place, I would have just sent the ungrateful goon to The Wall in disgrace.

Like Robert didn't do as much damage to the realm more so than either Aerys or Rhaegar example: The War o the 5 Kings. 

And Barristen getting sent to the Wall wouldn't have been a disgrace, it would have been a blassing. And he's not the KG that committed 15 yrs of treason and betrayal.