Who will end Sansa's life?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Lemon Cakes

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Actually IMO she's one of the few characters who are likely to get a happy(ish) ending.

Regarding her current story, I don't consider ser Shadrich and Kings Landing a (plot wise) serious threat --they've got bigger things to deal with-- and I don't see anyone else who would target her. And with only two books left (assuming...) there's no space to develop brand new adventures and new enemies - it seems to me that the character has reached her place of impact.

However, if she is meant to die, the only way I could see it happen is dying taking down Littlefinger.

[Mladen]

19 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I guess that's my point...she's always been useless.  There's no point in keeping her around.  We can't glean anything out of Martin putting emphasis on her growing up.  He's done that for many characters that are now dead.  Sansa is a zero-sum character.  She doesn't offer anything to the story.  If Martin has her stick around for a while longer people will forget about her entirely and her death will lose all shock value.  As it is she's still considered widely to be enough of a "main character"  (though I disagree with that) that her death in the next book would still deliver that shock and disbelief. 

she's easily the worst character in the book, she's a prissy, self-pitying brat and there's no use for her.  That's when characters usually get killed off

I couldn't disagree more with your point. Like Arya or Bran, they have been "useless" so far, but the thing is that Martin put them on the learning curve for a reason. All of them are learning, getting better and better, and once they do grow up, they will undoubtedly change the world. If she is as you say completely useless and pointless, there was no point keeping her from the beginning. IF, and that is one huge IF, she is of no interest to the plot, she could have been killed long ago. Keeping her alive would have served no point unless she of course was always meant for something. She is considered as the main character not by just people, but by author himself. That said, Martin never kills for the sake of shock or disbelief (he is not producer of Emmy-winning TV show). His deaths are planned books ahead and they perfectly fit the plot. Sansa's death wouldn't fit with the overall story GRRM has put on her. 

[spauldo17]

12 minutes ago, Risto said:

I couldn't disagree more with your point. Like Arya or Bran, they have been "useless" so far, but the thing is that Martin put them on the learning curve for a reason. All of them are learning, getting better and better, and once they do grow up, they will undoubtedly change the world. If she is as you say completely useless and pointless, there was no point keeping her from the beginning. IF, and that is one huge IF, she is of no interest to the plot, she could have been killed long ago. Keeping her alive would have served no point unless she of course was always meant for something. She is considered as the main character not by just people, but by author himself. That said, Martin never kills for the sake of shock or disbelief (he is not producer of Emmy-winning TV show). His deaths are planned books ahead and they perfectly fit the plot. Sansa's death wouldn't fit with the overall story GRRM has put on her. 

You can not possibly compare Sansa's story arc to Arya and Bran, that's a gross misstatement.

  Bran is progressing the storyline by offering one of the most exciting and mysterious possibilities - his weirwood sight/time travel thing/ maybe becoming the Bloodraven.  That's a huge development, and a development that has the potential to irrevocably alter the series story line. 

Arya is also progressing the story line by becoming an assassin, but not just an assassin, an assassin with a huge Westerosi sized chip on her shouder and revenge wish.  She also has shown the ability to warg into her Direwolf, though it's not a controlled ability yet.  When she gets back to Westeros she will be on a mission and she will affect the storyline with a vengeance.

Sansa...Sansa has been married off to people as a political pawn.  Sansa has been manipulated by just about everyone she meets.  Sansa hasn't taken a single positive action in her entire life (book-life).  She is a nobody who spends most of her time pitying herself, or crying.  She lacks the morals of her father, the conviction of her mother, and just about every positive attribute that makes up a Stark.

I will politely disagree with you on the GRRM killing for shock point.  Though seeing as how neither of us know what he is thinking it's a useless point to argue.  (though I would point to Robb and Jon off the top of my head as people who were in the middle of their story arcs and he killed them off)

But for the above reasons Sansa is the very definition of useless, while her siblings (minus Rickon) have all heavily contributed to the story.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

But for the above reasons Sansa is the very definition of useless, while her siblings (minus Rickon) have all heavily contributed to the story.

While you have every right to call Sansa useless until the cows come home, the only opinion that really matters is Martin's. Clearly, he disagrees with your assessment, since five books into the series (six if you count the gift chapter from the upcoming book), he's still keeping her around. His reasons for doing so must be important to him. 

Instead of being dismissive of the character, you might want to consider why it is that he hasn't killed her off, or why he doesn't consider her useless. Or if you just can't let go of that idea, how does Sansa's "uselessness" contribute to the story, what is Martin saying or doing by keeping someone so "useless" in the story?

Honestly, if the character really is pointless, why is he spending any time and effort on writing her story?

[a black swan]

15 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

You can not possibly compare Sansa's story arc to Arya and Bran, that's a gross misstatement.

  Bran is progressing the storyline by offering one of the most exciting and mysterious possibilities - his weirwood sight/time travel thing/ maybe becoming the Bloodraven.  That's a huge development, and a development that has the potential to irrevocably alter the series story line. 

Arya is also progressing the story line by becoming an assassin, but not just an assassin, an assassin with a huge Westerosi sized chip on her shouder and revenge wish.  She also has shown the ability to warg into her Direwolf, though it's not a controlled ability yet.  When she gets back to Westeros she will be on a mission and she will affect the storyline with a vengeance.

Sansa...Sansa has been married off to people as a political pawn.  Sansa has been manipulated by just about everyone she meets.  Sansa hasn't taken a single positive action in her entire life (book-life).  She is a nobody who spends most of her time pitying herself, or crying.  She lacks the morals of her father, the conviction of her mother, and just about every positive attribute that makes up a Stark.

I will politely disagree with you on the GRRM killing for shock point.  Though seeing as how neither of us know what he is thinking it's a useless point to argue.  (though I would point to Robb and Jon off the top of my head as people who were in the middle of their story arcs and he killed them off)

But for the above reasons Sansa is the very definition of useless, while her siblings (minus Rickon) have all heavily contributed to the story.

This slayage. *applauds*

[Chebyshov]

37 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I will politely disagree with you on the GRRM killing for shock point.  Though seeing as how neither of us know what he is thinking it's a useless point to argue.  (though I would point to Robb and Jon off the top of my head as people who were in the middle of their story arcs and he killed them off)

Robb's not a PoV character, and he was never the point. It's widely agreed upon in the fandom that Jon isn't done. There's a form and narrative fit to the deaths in ASOIAF, especially with PoVs, and where Sansa currently is it would be a bizarre call, to say the least. That's why speculating on any potential death feels bizarre as well...the context would have to change quite a deal for this to even seem on the table.

What I'm gathering, however, is assassins = cool!! Magic = cool!! An arc centered on acts of internal resistance and torturing out as much agency as possibly while honing political skills/intuition and keeping inner thoughts and passions hidden under a guise of idealized maidenhood/courtesy to the point of basically running an entire fucking castle = useless. Illuminating. 

[Mladen]

47 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

You can not possibly compare Sansa's story arc to Arya and Bran, that's a gross misstatement.

  Bran is progressing the storyline by offering one of the most exciting and mysterious possibilities - his weirwood sight/time travel thing/ maybe becoming the Bloodraven.  That's a huge development, and a development that has the potential to irrevocably alter the series story line. 

Arya is also progressing the story line by becoming an assassin, but not just an assassin, an assassin with a huge Westerosi sized chip on her shouder and revenge wish.  She also has shown the ability to warg into her Direwolf, though it's not a controlled ability yet.  When she gets back to Westeros she will be on a mission and she will affect the storyline with a vengeance.

Sansa...Sansa has been married off to people as a political pawn.  Sansa has been manipulated by just about everyone she meets.  Sansa hasn't taken a single positive action in her entire life (book-life).  She is a nobody who spends most of her time pitying herself, or crying.  She lacks the morals of her father, the conviction of her mother, and just about every positive attribute that makes up a Stark.

I will politely disagree with you on the GRRM killing for shock point.  Though seeing as how neither of us know what he is thinking it's a useless point to argue.  (though I would point to Robb and Jon off the top of my head as people who were in the middle of their story arcs and he killed them off)

But for the above reasons Sansa is the very definition of useless, while her siblings (minus Rickon) have all heavily contributed to the story.

And yet Martin clearly sets all of these three children on the same road. He is meticulous in how each of Stark children follows certain pattern. They are separated from the pack, alone, trying to connect with the world around them, they become influenced by the morally-questionable teachers while at the same time longing for what they miss the most - their family. What is Bloodraven for Bran or Faceless Men for Arya, that is Littlefinger for Sansa. What is Bran's vision through WF weirwood or Arya's wolf dreams, that is Sansa's snow castle scene. These children follow the same pattern, almost to a letter. 

Sansa most certainly doesn't lack Ned's moral as she remains strong in her convictions and beliefs. Would Ned be proud to see Arya getting into assassins' guild or Bran mind raping Hodor? He would be sad, but not proud. Sansa, at least so far, kept her hands clean, she is starting to do some dubious things to survive in unknown world, but so has any of her siblings. She has never been like Catelyn, save the looks. Arya had more of Catelyn, than Sansa ever did. As for some "supercool factor" you think people need to possess to be a Stark, allow me to say that it is as wrong as it can be. Stark family tree, just like any, is composed of the individuals and those individuals can be good, bad or somewhere between. There is no proto-Stark. And if there was, Ned Stark, whom most fandom see as one, wouldn't be one. It is interesting to say that Sansa is "not a Stark" when in fact she parallels Lyanna's story in terms of her infatuation with Prince harming the family, Ned's idealistic view of the world, or Rickard's political ambition. Not to mention that she is a skinchanger, a trait that runs deep in Stark blood.

The problem I have with your interpretation is that regarding Jon, the story hasn't finished and that we suspect for a while now that he is not dead. As for Robb, he wasn't in the middle of his story, he was at its end. Robb was never a hero of the story, he was never POV character, he was never the one whose growth was important as with Bran, Sansa or Arya. Ned, Catelyn and Robb were never heroes of the saga. Jon, Bran, Sansa and Arya are. Martin puts a lot of attention to the process of growing up and educating these children and that is basically what this story is - cross-generational saga.

How has Arya or Bran contributed to the story? Arya has been roaming around three books. She WILL BE absolutely important, but right now, she has no more impact on the great design of things than Missandei or Tommen. Same for Bran. He did nothing so far. But, he will be crucial in the battles to come. And, following the rule, same applies to Sansa. She has been no one, a pawn, but Martin (well, per his own words) is transforming her into a player. She is positioned to face one of ASOIAF's greatest villains, someone who has worked on destruction of her family. The winter has come and Sansa is also in Vale, untouched by war and its devastation. The knights of the Vale and the food from its granaries will be just as needed as Arya's killing skills. It won't happen overnight, but Sansa may be having the key to North's survival nearby her and when the time comes, she will be ready to use it. 

At the end of the day, as was said on this thread, mine or your opinion doesn't matter a lot. It is GRRM who considers her to be a main character, it is GRRM who has written almost 30 chapters about this "pointless" character and yes, it is GRRM who said that Sansa is on trajectory of becoming a player. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

You can not possibly compare Sansa's story arc to Arya and Bran, that's a gross misstatement.

  Bran is progressing the storyline by offering one of the most exciting and mysterious possibilities - his weirwood sight/time travel thing/ maybe becoming the Bloodraven.  That's a huge development, and a development that has the potential to irrevocably alter the series story line. 

Arya is also progressing the story line by becoming an assassin, but not just an assassin, an assassin with a huge Westerosi sized chip on her shouder and revenge wish.  She also has shown the ability to warg into her Direwolf, though it's not a controlled ability yet.  When she gets back to Westeros she will be on a mission and she will affect the storyline with a vengeance.

Sansa...Sansa has been married off to people as a political pawn.  Sansa has been manipulated by just about everyone she meets.  Sansa hasn't taken a single positive action in her entire life (book-life).  She is a nobody who spends most of her time pitying herself, or crying.  She lacks the morals of her father, the conviction of her mother, and just about every positive attribute that makes up a Stark.

I will politely disagree with you on the GRRM killing for shock point.  Though seeing as how neither of us know what he is thinking it's a useless point to argue.  (though I would point to Robb and Jon off the top of my head as people who were in the middle of their story arcs and he killed them off)

But for the above reasons Sansa is the very definition of useless, while her siblings (minus Rickon) have all heavily contributed to the story.

ASOIAF is a fiction, its main function is t tell a story, so every character with their life and death serve the story at some point. If GRRM kept Sansa alive all the 5 books, it isn't because he forgot to kill her. I agree that she has been a pawn and she was married off, but still she survived and well in contast to some other characters who got themselves killed with their decisions. As Tyrion used to say, "Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

Every death in the books have its meaning. Ned's death started the Wo5K, Robb's death was a turnpoint of the war. Oberyn's death was a reason why Tyrion went to Essos and so on.

If we consider "usefullness" of other characters on their influence of the events, than many other characters would be useless at this point. Bran's visions have zero effect on the events and presumed dead. The same with Arya. Even Dany has no influence on Westeros and Essos is a mess with or without her. So why don't we call them useless? Because they apparently have a potential role in the story. Why the same doesn't apply for Sansa? She is a student of LF, who's no doubt one of the biggest influencers of the story without being an warrior or a greenseer. Sansa can go dark path or not, but her arc is not ended yet.
 

[Winter's Cold]

Arya has influenced the story. In ASOS, she warged Nymeria and pulled Catelyn's body from the river. Nymeria prevented the other wolves from eating Catelyn and left the area when the Brotherhood arrived. Catelyn was reanimated and became Lady Stoneheart. Thus, Arya is indirectly responsible for the resurrection of Lady Stoneheart and the transformation of the Brotherhood without Banners into a Frey assassination group.

 

Sansa has had a significant influence on the story, however that influence has been mainly negative for both her and her family. Her decision to go to Cersei and reveal Ned's plans had very disastrous effects:

It causes Ned to confess to treason to assure Sansa's safety. This gives Joffrey cause to execute him. Perhaps Ned would have died a different way but Sansa's hostage status is what caused Ned to confess.

It leads Arya on that Riverlands trip of horrors where she is captured, beaten and abused repeatedly. 

Jeyne Poole falls into Littlefinger's clutches which later allows them to marry her to Ramsay as a false Arya.

Sansa herself is beaten, forcibly married and abused. 

Jaime Lannister is released by Catelyn because of Sansa's hostage status and Bran and Rickon's deaths. His release leads to the loss of Karstark forces.

 

Sansa's decision to betray her father was one of the most disastrous choices a character has made in ASOIAF due to the wide ranging negative effects it had on both her family and her friends. 

[Lion of the West]

Old age is the only thing that will kill Sansa.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa's decision to betray her father was one of the most disastrous choices a character has made in ASOIAF due to the wide ranging negative effects it had on both her family and her friends. 

There were million of threads where users locking horns with each other about Sansa's role in Ned's downfall. Even GRRM himself told that it wasn't only her own fault. So I won't repeat it all. Ned himself spilled his plans to Cersei anyway without securing his daughters' safety first.

Any situation has different effects on events. For example Sansa being a hostage saved Jaime's ass, otherwise Robb would have no reasons to keep him alive. If Jaime would be killed or held hostage longer he wouldn't come to KL and save Tyrion and so on.

[Greywater-Watch]

At the moment Sansa is important to keep Littlefinger as a crucial player. Without Sansa (and concequently his plans with her), one of the main actors in Westeros would have become unimportant.

I mean: Littlefinger trying to secure his position in the Vale which - according to himself - will take years, the Vale being the only of the seven Kingdoms which stayed neutral and with no active scheming/plotting until now - that would have been terribly boring, no?

[spauldo17]

18 hours ago, Risto said:

And yet Martin clearly sets all of these three children on the same road. He is meticulous in how each of Stark children follows certain pattern. They are separated from the pack, alone, trying to connect with the world around them, they become influenced by the morally-questionable teachers while at the same time longing for what they miss the most - their family. What is Bloodraven for Bran or Faceless Men for Arya, that is Littlefinger for Sansa. What is Bran's vision through WF weirwood or Arya's wolf dreams, that is Sansa's snow castle scene. These children follow the same pattern, almost to a letter. 

Sansa most certainly doesn't lack Ned's moral as she remains strong in her convictions and beliefs. Would Ned be proud to see Arya getting into assassins' guild or Bran mind raping Hodor? He would be sad, but not proud. Sansa, at least so far, kept her hands clean, she is starting to do some dubious things to survive in unknown world, but so has any of her siblings. She has never been like Catelyn, save the looks. Arya had more of Catelyn, than Sansa ever did. As for some "supercool factor" you think people need to possess to be a Stark, allow me to say that it is as wrong as it can be. Stark family tree, just like any, is composed of the individuals and those individuals can be good, bad or somewhere between. There is no proto-Stark. And if there was, Ned Stark, whom most fandom see as one, wouldn't be one. It is interesting to say that Sansa is "not a Stark" when in fact she parallels Lyanna's story in terms of her infatuation with Prince harming the family, Ned's idealistic view of the world, or Rickard's political ambition. Not to mention that she is a skinchanger, a trait that runs deep in Stark blood.

The problem I have with your interpretation is that regarding Jon, the story hasn't finished and that we suspect for a while now that he is not dead. As for Robb, he wasn't in the middle of his story, he was at its end. Robb was never a hero of the story, he was never POV character, he was never the one whose growth was important as with Bran, Sansa or Arya. Ned, Catelyn and Robb were never heroes of the saga. Jon, Bran, Sansa and Arya are. Martin puts a lot of attention to the process of growing up and educating these children and that is basically what this story is - cross-generational saga.

How has Arya or Bran contributed to the story? Arya has been roaming around three books. She WILL BE absolutely important, but right now, she has no more impact on the great design of things than Missandei or Tommen. Same for Bran. He did nothing so far. But, he will be crucial in the battles to come. And, following the rule, same applies to Sansa. She has been no one, a pawn, but Martin (well, per his own words) is transforming her into a player. She is positioned to face one of ASOIAF's greatest villains, someone who has worked on destruction of her family. The winter has come and Sansa is also in Vale, untouched by war and its devastation. The knights of the Vale and the food from its granaries will be just as needed as Arya's killing skills. It won't happen overnight, but Sansa may be having the key to North's survival nearby her and when the time comes, she will be ready to use it. 

At the end of the day, as was said on this thread, mine or your opinion doesn't matter a lot. It is GRRM who considers her to be a main character, it is GRRM who has written almost 30 chapters about this "pointless" character and yes, it is GRRM who said that Sansa is on trajectory of becoming a player. 

I would argue that Sansa doesn't have Ned's morals because she gave her father up to eventually be executed.  Something Ned wouldn't have done to family.

By saying that I think Stark's need to have a "super-cool" factor you are grossly oversimplifying my point to make yourself seem right.  It's not about how "cool" they are, it's about contributing to the story and being, as you say, a "player".  Anyone who says Bran isn't a player has their head in the sand, his developing abilities will allow him to affect events all over Westeros.  Arya is similar, she now has a set of skills (a la Liam Niesons) that she can use to take out key players in Westeros with her Drogon sized grudge.   Sansa has done none of these things.  She hasn't been bettering herself or preparing herself, she has been doing nothing. 

As far as Jon and Robb go, although most assume (me included) that Jon will come back, unfortunately he hasn't yet so as of yet that's only speculation.  And to say Robb wasn't a hero is asinine.  He was the king in the north, taking over House Stark.  He most certainly wasn't at the end of his story arc as most fans saw it (of course hindsight being what it is we can look back and say "oh his story arc was done" because he was killed, but the reality is nobody saw it coming precisely because he seemed to be in the middle of a positive trajectory)

The only way I will concede the point about Sansa, and this is something I believe you mentioned or perhaps it was another poster, is if she takes these "lessons" she has learned, becomes a stone-cold heartless politician, and starts manipulating people as if Cersei were her hero.   If she rejoins other Stark children and offers her political expertise and becomes the lead Stark in navigating the murky waters that is Westerosi politics.  That would sufficiently complete her arc, and also be super bad ass.   But if I'm being honest, she doesn't seem to be actively learning how to do this, she just lets it happen to her and then cries about it.  Let's be careful, though, to not let show-Sansa affect our opinion of book-Sansa.  Show-Sansa has kinda sorta started to redeem herself, but book-Sansa hasn't, so she is still fairly useless up to this point. 

Lastly, knowing GRRM's writing style I don't think the fact that she has been around for 5 books means much of anything.  If he slightly burns his morning toast he may kill Sansa on a whim.   I wil just say: Remember Robb.  No GoT fan in their right mind would have said that Robb's arc was done when he died, yet GRRM killed him off. Same thing can happen with almost any other character

[spauldo17]

19 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

While you have every right to call Sansa useless until the cows come home, the only opinion that really matters is Martin's. Clearly, he disagrees with your assessment, since five books into the series (six if you count the gift chapter from the upcoming book), he's still keeping her around. His reasons for doing so must be important to him. 

Instead of being dismissive of the character, you might want to consider why it is that he hasn't killed her off, or why he doesn't consider her useless. Or if you just can't let go of that idea, how does Sansa's "uselessness" contribute to the story, what is Martin saying or doing by keeping someone so "useless" in the story?

Honestly, if the character really is pointless, why is he spending any time and effort on writing her story?

He's spending time writing her story because he's writing a fantasy novel and creating a fantasy world.  Not only that but Sansa has been a common character to many other, more important, characters in the book.  Most of her storyline has been about being a pawn to help progress other people's storylines.  For example, right now she's travelling with LF, he is an important player and therefore we see a lot of her.  Before that it was joffrey, and cersei, and the Starks. 

I'm not trying to be dismissive of her, though I full admit I probably am, but I have been so sick of this character for a while now. She has always seemed, to me at least, to act very entitled, as if she thought life should be easy and everything should be handed to her.  None of the other Stark children had that quality to them. 

[spauldo17]

18 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

ASOIAF is a fiction, its main function is t tell a story, so every character with their life and death serve the story at some point. If GRRM kept Sansa alive all the 5 books, it isn't because he forgot to kill her. I agree that she has been a pawn and she was married off, but still she survived and well in contast to some other characters who got themselves killed with their decisions. As Tyrion used to say, "Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

Every death in the books have its meaning. Ned's death started the Wo5K, Robb's death was a turnpoint of the war. Oberyn's death was a reason why Tyrion went to Essos and so on.

If we consider "usefullness" of other characters on their influence of the events, than many other characters would be useless at this point. Bran's visions have zero effect on the events and presumed dead. The same with Arya. Even Dany has no influence on Westeros and Essos is a mess with or without her. So why don't we call them useless? Because they apparently have a potential role in the story. Why the same doesn't apply for Sansa? She is a student of LF, who's no doubt one of the biggest influencers of the story without being an warrior or a greenseer. Sansa can go dark path or not, but her arc is not ended yet.
 

People keep saying she's a "student" of LF, but where are you getting this from?  She isn't learning from him, he isn't teaching her.  Yes, ideally we, as fans, like to think she's absorbing all of these political lessons, but her chapters don't point to that.  She's busy being creeped out cuz she's pretty sure LF want's to dress her up like her mother and take a turn about the sheets while she calls him lord of the vale.   The other characters you mention are all taking positive action to become a major player, they are all bettering themselves for future actions.  Sansa is not, at least not that we see.  We can speculate all we want, but that's just speculation

[spauldo17]

19 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

Robb's not a PoV character, and he was never the point. It's widely agreed upon in the fandom that Jon isn't done. There's a form and narrative fit to the deaths in ASOIAF, especially with PoVs, and where Sansa currently is it would be a bizarre call, to say the least. That's why speculating on any potential death feels bizarre as well...the context would have to change quite a deal for this to even seem on the table.

What I'm gathering, however, is assassins = cool!! Magic = cool!! An arc centered on acts of internal resistance and torturing out as much agency as possibly while honing political skills/intuition and keeping inner thoughts and passions hidden under a guise of idealized maidenhood/courtesy to the point of basically running an entire fucking castle = useless. Illuminating. 

I'll say the same to you as I did to Risto, Robb was a major character/hero and was in the middle of an upswing as King in the North.  "widely agreed upon" does not make it canon (yet.) so we can't use it in arguments (yet.) 

you, as well, are oversimplifying my point to make me seem basic so you can win your argument, allow me to correct you.  I never said assassin=cool, or magic=cool. I said both of those characters are improving themselves to affect the story.  Bran is polishing his new abilities so he can affect all of Westeros just the same as BR did, and Arya will return to Westeros a new woman with a host of skills she didn't previously have.  They are ACTIVELY working on improving themselves. 

If anywhere in Sansa's chapters it said she was "honing political skills" and "running an entire fucking castle" or anything of the sort I could agree with you.  But it doesn't, it just has her quietly pitying herself and being manipulated.  We can't assume she's gleaning all sorts of political lessons if it's not written in her chapters.

[Greywater-Watch]

29 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

People keep saying she's a "student" of LF, but where are you getting this from?  She isn't learning from him, he isn't teaching her.  Yes, ideally we, as fans, like to think she's absorbing all of these political lessons, but her chapters don't point to that.  She's busy being creeped out cuz she's pretty sure LF want's to dress her up like her mother and take a turn about the sheets while she calls him lord of the vale.   The other characters you mention are all taking positive action to become a major player, they are all bettering themselves for future actions.  Sansa is not, at least not that we see.  We can speculate all we want, but that's just speculation

I disagree. She learns well her role as Alayne, being careful not to blow her camouflage. Something she would not have been able to do before LF's turtoring (when she always blurted out what came to her mind). She finds out about Lyn Corbray's relation to LF, which requires some intelligence. She learns to control herself and follows LF's plans to seduce Harry the Heir very cleverly. The Sansa from KL-time would never have been able to do this (after the first bad encounter with Harry the Heir). She attentively follows conversations (like the one with LF planning to buy as much food as possible for the Vale speculating for higher prices in the coming winter). Such conversations she would not have followed before.

[Mladen]

20 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I would argue that Sansa doesn't have Ned's morals because she gave her father up to eventually be executed.  Something Ned wouldn't have done to family.

By saying that I think Stark's need to have a "super-cool" factor you are grossly oversimplifying my point to make yourself seem right.  It's not about how "cool" they are, it's about contributing to the story and being, as you say, a "player".  Anyone who says Bran isn't a player has their head in the sand, his developing abilities will allow him to affect events all over Westeros.  Arya is similar, she now has a set of skills (a la Liam Niesons) that she can use to take out key players in Westeros with her Drogon sized grudge.   Sansa has done none of these things.  She hasn't been bettering herself or preparing herself, she has been doing nothing. 

As far as Jon and Robb go, although most assume (me included) that Jon will come back, unfortunately he hasn't yet so as of yet that's only speculation.  And to say Robb wasn't a hero is asinine.  He was the king in the north, taking over House Stark.  He most certainly wasn't at the end of his story arc as most fans saw it (of course hindsight being what it is we can look back and say "oh his story arc was done" because he was killed, but the reality is nobody saw it coming precisely because he seemed to be in the middle of a positive trajectory)

The only way I will concede the point about Sansa, and this is something I believe you mentioned or perhaps it was another poster, is if she takes these "lessons" she has learned, becomes a stone-cold heartless politician, and starts manipulating people as if Cersei were her hero.   If she rejoins other Stark children and offers her political expertise and becomes the lead Stark in navigating the murky waters that is Westerosi politics.  That would sufficiently complete her arc, and also be super bad ass.   But if I'm being honest, she doesn't seem to be actively learning how to do this, she just lets it happen to her and then cries about it.  Let's be careful, though, to not let show-Sansa affect our opinion of book-Sansa.  Show-Sansa has kinda sorta started to redeem herself, but book-Sansa hasn't, so she is still fairly useless up to this point. 

Lastly, knowing GRRM's writing style I don't think the fact that she has been around for 5 books means much of anything.  If he slightly burns his morning toast he may kill Sansa on a whim.   I wil just say: Remember Robb.  No GoT fan in their right mind would have said that Robb's arc was done when he died, yet GRRM killed him off. Same thing can happen with almost any other character

Well, who does have Ned's morals? Arya, who is becoming assassin? Bran, who has been mindraping Hodor? Sansa did make a mistake, no one denies that, but to say that she has done that intentionally, fully being aware of how her father would end, that is plainly false and can not be proven by what has been written in the text.

Sansa, as Martin has said, is becoming a player. He literally compared her wits with one of the most intelligent players in the Game of Thrones. Sansa's set of skills may not be "cool" to you, but they will be of utter importance for her family. As I have said before, she is positioned to deal with one of the greatest villains of the story, she has the key of the untouched Vale armies and the food in their granaries, when it has been made a point, time after time, that both men and food will be needed soon enough. Arya will become a killer, Bran is becoming quite the deity and Sansa is becoming a player in the Game. Each set of skills is different and each is needed to deal with what is coming in the future.

Robb was NEVER a hero of the story. Not only that he is not a POV character, he is a secondary character at best. Ned was never a HERO of the saga, as this is a cross-generational saga about children growing up and Ned, like Cersei or Jaime, is part of the old generation. His story was coming to en end, because we always knew that the center stage has always been reserved for other members of his family. To see the pieces of foreshadowing Martin left like breadcrumbs all over ACOK and ASOS prior to Red wedding is to understand that RW and Robb's story were coming to an end. 

You say that you think Sansa can be redeemed if she becomes a politician. Well, that is not even a question, as we have seen GRRM plainly speaking about that. It was GRRM who spoke of "pawn to player" transformation, who put her in the position where she can help her family. Show Sansa is nothing more than a version of Sansa's future. We simply can not ignore GRRM's clear opinion about Sansa and her growing process.

Actually, there were a lot of fans who after Dany's vision were quite convinced that Robb was toasted. You compare her with Robb and yet you have nothing to base that claim. She is not secondary character like Robb, there is no point of killing her, because it's not like someone else can fill her shoes and become LF's obsession and weak point. Narrative-wise, she hasn't fulfill the purpose Martin has for her, so overall, she is safe for now. And my guess, she would be face for quite the time coming.

32 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

He's spending time writing her story because he's writing a fantasy novel and creating a fantasy world.  Not only that but Sansa has been a common character to many other, more important, characters in the book.  Most of her storyline has been about being a pawn to help progress other people's storylines.  For example, right now she's travelling with LF, he is an important player and therefore we see a lot of her.  Before that it was joffrey, and cersei, and the Starks. 

I'm not trying to be dismissive of her, though I full admit I probably am, but I have been so sick of this character for a while now. She has always seemed, to me at least, to act very entitled, as if she thought life should be easy and everything should be handed to her.  None of the other Stark children had that quality to them. 

What? Robb was declared King and that is not entitlement? Jon behaving like he was better than anyone at NW wasn't entitlement? Dany's speeches of dragon blood and 10 000 titles ARE NOT entitlement? Bran warging Hodor as he pleases and even being occasionally rude to Reeds is not entitlement? I am sorry, but given that most of our heroes belong to very rich, noble houses, representing 1% of population, entitlement is what comes with birth. Actually, Sansa, like all Stark children and Daenerys, have come a long way from that. She has been time after time, speaking about her, not her claim or something else. She doesn't feel like she should have anything, all she wants is a happy life with the man who loves her for who she is. That most certainly isn't entitlement.

GRRM doesn't have to write about Sansa if he doesn't want. But he was writing A LOT about her, even when he didn't need to. He didn't need a window into KL happenings as he already had Tyrion there. If he wanted someone else to deal with LF, he could have chosen anyone else. But, he didn't. He chose Sansa. He wrote a lot about her growing up, developing skills (skinchanging is just one of them, as GRRM did say all Stark children are indeed skinchangers) and ultimately put her in position where she can confront the man who started the entire mess.

36 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

People keep saying she's a "student" of LF, but where are you getting this from?  She isn't learning from him, he isn't teaching her.  Yes, ideally we, as fans, like to think she's absorbing all of these political lessons, but her chapters don't point to that.  She's busy being creeped out cuz she's pretty sure LF want's to dress her up like her mother and take a turn about the sheets while she calls him lord of the vale.   The other characters you mention are all taking positive action to become a major player, they are all bettering themselves for future actions.  Sansa is not, at least not that we see.  We can speculate all we want, but that's just speculation

Sansa is learning how to observe people and not reveal much. She is learning how the lords and ladies of Westeros operate, she is learning the importance of keeping things to yourself. She is learning how to use people and move the pawns across the board as she may please. She is intelligent enough (per GRRM, she is just as clever as LF) and she can help her family when the time comes. It is a speculation based on what author said to us and where her POV has been leading us.

35 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

 If anywhere in Sansa's chapters it said she was "honing political skills" and "running an entire fucking castle" or anything of the sort I could agree with you.  But it doesn't, it just has her quietly pitying herself and being manipulated.  We can't assume she's gleaning all sorts of political lessons if it's not written in her chapters.

She was left to take care of Eyrie when LF went away. That is the role of Lady of the castle. She did run Eyrie and made all the preparations for the household to move to the Moon's Gates. Furthermore, she has been observing how LF operates among the Lords Declarant and how he buys their loyalty. It has been written, very clearly. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

50 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

you, as well, are oversimplifying my point to make me seem basic so you can win your argument, allow me to correct you.  I never said assassin=cool, or magic=cool. I said both of those characters are improving themselves to affect the story.  Bran is polishing his new abilities so he can affect all of Westeros just the same as BR did, and Arya will return to Westeros a new woman with a host of skills she didn't previously have.  They are ACTIVELY working on improving themselves.

I respect your sympathy to other characters, but I have disagree with your definition of improvment. Becoming a ruthless assassin isn't improvement, it's development in a certain way, but it doesn't make one a better person. BR affected Westeros because he was a commander and HotK for many years, he used to be a figure of power. Though his magic abilities helped him in it, his role in Westeros history after disapearing beyond the Wall is still arguable.

50 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

If anywhere in Sansa's chapters it said she was "honing political skills" and "running an entire fucking castle" or anything of the sort I could agree with you.  But it doesn't, it just has her quietly pitying herself and being manipulated.  We can't assume she's gleaning all sorts of political lessons if it's not written in her chapters.

In the beginning of AGOT Sansa trusted Cersei and was head over hills in love with Joffrey despite all the warning signs. After a bitter experience Sansa learned not to trust them. First Sansa tried to confront Joff and told Robb would bring her his head, what got her beaten, so she learned to keep her thoughts to herself and seem unsuspicious. Nobody found out about her meetings with Dontos and plotting the escape, despite being watched all the time. In the Vale Sansa played the role so even people who met her as Sansa didn't recognize her, which is kind of skinchanging. If this is not learning, than I don't know what is.