Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Lady Fevre Dream]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

My opinion is that it's not for nothing that the Wall is so full of magic, preserving... Aemon was so old. When did he get sick? During his voyage. Not confirmed but suggested the Wall was what kept him alive for so long. Aemon seems to think so. In the show Aemon died at the Wall. Wall + ghost. I'm not sure he actually dies. George also showed us healing magic with Victarion. And Dany didn't die in the fire. As a parallel, Jon may not actually have died.

As for Bran: that chapter of his fall ended with a cliffhanger. If that was at the end of a book, we'd think him dead. Turned out he was broken and comatose instead.

And yes, D's don't want to go into those technicalities at all. They'd prefer a Ferrari raven than swtiching between magic. Most technical we had is the WWs having their minions. And those are things we haven't seen in the books at all, not sure we ever will and seems to have invented to solve the "how will we get them to capture one." After all, as far as we know there's no NK in the books. They also needed Jon to be on the move to hang Alliser and Olly and do a BatB, so they couldn't have him in a coma, could they?

 

I mentioned Aemon, The Wall, and his words about the cold preserving in one of my earlier posts on this here today/tonight.  I can see between warging, Ghost, The Wall......covering some ICE there, any help from Mel (if it's even needed) being some Fire, and again, Jon is still here thanks to  Ice and Fire.  Or just Ice.  Maybe.  As I said, I'm not certain, but I can see it going that way. 

Your point on Bran's fall and how it seemed at the moment is a good point as well. 

As for the Ds, we've all covered how much stock we put in most of their nonsense, LOL  Reading your last paragraph, I can almost hear characters talking about how Jon SHOULD be dead.  Just like Bran should have been from a such a fall.  I think the answer comes in what is that George wants to do with Jon.  If he's just a fire wight, in all honesty, it's a pretty crap waste of potential story after 5 books, considering we've seen this fire wight thing so much already. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

So let's assume Jon doesn't die in the books, and the worst that happens is he's a bit more wolfy after spending a few hours inside Ghost... which he already does in his dreams... so multiple stab wounds, miraculously recovers, no big deal.

And let's assume the show for some reason decided to have him die and resurrected and made a point that he's like Beric in this way, and therefore there is a big cost to it. But then the show being the show, they just forget next season, no big deal.

Seems like a big mess.

Jon needs his own near death experience to truly awaken any gifts he has, like actually consciously warging for the first time, and the kill the boy let the man be born thingy. Dany has had her near death experience (saved my magic), and so did Bran (saved by magic), and so that leaves Jon to have his near death experience to be on par with the events, foes, and allies to come. 

I will say that there are theories out there that think Jon has to die to become a greenseer wight so he can battle the Others and "live" out his days as the new Coldhands. 

[Le Cygne]

I think the worse story would be he is miraculously healed and commits incest. Seems like if he's a fire wight (aka he dies in the books too), there's at least a chance for a good story in the books.

I guess we'll see. Well, let's hope for the best, whatever that may be, but prepare for the worst. I have long thought everyone was doomed, and just hoped for a happy moment here and there.

[Le Cygne]

Laughing at the Larry and Carol pic... 4 seasons too late...

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I mentioned Aemon, The Wall, and his words about the cold preserving in one of my earlier posts on this here today/tonight.  I can see between warging, Ghost, The Wall......covering some ICE there, any help from Mel (if it's even needed) being some Fire, and again, Jon is still here thanks to  Ice and Fire.  Or just Ice.  Maybe.  As I said, I'm not certain, but I can see it going that way. 

It might be that he is on the brink of death, comatose, unable to get back into his body, and yes it's possible that Mel starts a fire ritual, but ends up draining part of the wall of its magic. And with all the mayhem taht was going on at the Wall at the time, I doubt any of it will be a walk in the park. It's gonna get ugly.

1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I think the answer comes in what is that George wants to do with Jon.  If he's just a fire wight, in all honesty, it's a pretty crap waste of potential story after 5 books, considering we've seen this fire wight thing so much already. 

Agreed.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon needs his own near death experience to truly awaken any gifts he has, like actually consciously watching for the first time, and the kill the boy let the man be born thingy. Dany has had her near death experience (saved my magic), and so did Bran (saved by magic), and so that leaves Jon to have his near death experience to be on par with the events, foes, and allies to come. 

I would add Arya with that who's repeatedly told that "she is dead" and is becoming "no one".

Overall, it's gonna get ugly and there will be heartache, and children dying. And then there's the Vale. Too much ominous stuff regarding that big ass mountain, and Lysa said way too many times that they were safe, and then those newly armed and experienced mountain clans. When has George ever written a tourney that doesn't end before its conclusion with some serious mishap? And then we have Jaime, missing, wanted by LS, after she most certainly will learn he threatened Edmure's unborn child with a trebuchet.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Most fans seem to believe that the major characters will have the same ending on the show as they do in the books, but I think D&D will likely be using this technique extremely liberally (ex. main characters who die on the show will still die in the books, but under completely different circumstances). 

I mentioned in a few other posts that I think that Tyrion is written on the show as a saint, and Arya is still being written as a feisty little girl purely because that's the persona that made them popular with the fans, and the Ds weren't willing to take a risk and have them develop in darker ways. (Admittedly, Arya threatening to skin Sansa alive is pretty dark, but in these scenes Arya still acts like a little kid, to the detriment of her character development). I think they're doing the same with Jon. Kit Harington has said in interviews that he was disappointed by Jon's lack of change post-resurrection, and I think that comes from the showrunners not wanting to risk having the audience reject a darker Jon (which just goes to show how much marketing plays into this show, since plenty of other dramas -- especially fantasy/sci-fi ones -- have had arcs where the protagonist takes a dark turn). So while I do think Jon's resurrection will be different from the others due to the circumstances of his death, I think he'll come back vastly different than he did on the show.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

mentioned in a few other posts that I think that Tyrion is written on the show as a saint, and Arya is still being written as a feisty little girl purely because that's the persona that made them popular with the fans,

  I don't think that Tyrion was such a sain in the earlier seasons. Indeed, he was more kind and empathic then his siblings and his father but wasn't the most moral character. He used to be on the same page with his father while dealing with enemies. He did everything to secure his family's position  because it their prosperity was his prosperity too.

[Le Cygne]

Cogman again. Enough with the gothic horror stories. "It’s a fun gothic storyline with Littlefinger pitting the Starks against each other." No, it's not fun, it's just stupid.

[Regular John Umber]

 RE Jon: I'm sure he's dead, he's been stabbed in some pretty fatal places, and there's no reason to think he'd survive that. The biggest issue for me is why try bring him back at all? In the show, they have Davos ask Mel if she has any things that whores do for money magic tricks she can do, but why? Why this guy? The books will undoubtedly have a better explanation, and that will be key.

 

 I do wonder if this isn't spot on though (long read):

https://weirwoodleviathan.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/iii-now-i-am-become-death-legacy-of-a-toy-soldier/

TL;DR: Bran is Hodoring Jon in some way, bringing him back like Bloodraven is perhaps doing to Coldhands, and Bran will fly a dragon thanks to Jon's blood. 3 heads right there.

[Ser Quork]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It might be that he is on the brink of death, comatose, unable to get back into his body, and yes it's possible that Mel starts a fire ritual, but ends up draining part of the wall of its magic. And with all the mayhem taht was going on at the Wall at the time, I doubt any of it will be a walk in the park. It's gonna get ugly.

Agreed.

I would add Arya with that who's repeatedly told that "she is dead" and is becoming "no one".

Overall, it's gonna get ugly and there will be heartache, and children dying. And then there's the Vale. Too much ominous stuff regarding that big ass mountain, and Lysa said way too many times that they were safe, and then those newly armed and experienced mountain clans. When has George ever written a tourney that doesn't end before its conclusion with some serious mishap? And then we have Jaime, missing, wanted by LS, after she most certainly will learn he threatened Edmure's unborn child with a trebuchet.

Agreed.  George isn't going to soft-pedal the horror aspects of this story - which I'm really looking forward to, I might add.  It's why the show's lovey-dovey boatsex story gets right on my nerves.

(I'm still hopeful the breaking of the Night's Watch vow has an impact on the Wall, too.)

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Most fans seem to believe that the major characters will have the same ending on the show as they do in the books, but I think D&D will likely be using this technique extremely liberally (ex. main characters who die on the show will still die in the books, but under completely different circumstances). 

I mentioned in a few other posts that I think that Tyrion is written on the show as a saint, and Arya is still being written as a feisty little girl purely because that's the persona that made them popular with the fans, and the Ds weren't willing to take a risk and have them develop in darker ways. (Admittedly, Arya threatening to skin Sansa alive is pretty dark, but in these scenes Arya still acts like a little kid, to the detriment of her character development). I think they're doing the same with Jon. Kit Harington has said in interviews that he was disappointed by Jon's lack of change post-resurrection, and I think that comes from the showrunners not wanting to risk having the audience reject a darker Jon (which just goes to show how much marketing plays into this show, since plenty of other dramas -- especially fantasy/sci-fi ones -- have had arcs where the protagonist takes a dark turn). So while I do think Jon's resurrection will be different from the others due to the circumstances of his death, I think he'll come back vastly different than he did on the show.

Agreed.  What does ending mean? Off the top of my head (not a prediction), if Jon dies:

1) alone at the end of the books in the Land of Always Winter, a resurrected fire-wight, angry, violent, wolfish, having who has pushed everyone and everything away, even Arya and the KitN crown, because he's consumed with fighting the Great Other at the expense of everything else; or

2) in the show at the end of season 8 as King on the Iron Throne with heirs he fathered with Daenerys,

is that the same ending?  If the journey is completely different, having the same destination (death) is not the same ending in my view.

[Le Cygne]

So Larry leaves Carol because she was mean to Jon Snow. That's the unforgivable sin.

[A bowl of brown]

The shows problem with jons resurrection is that its the same as berics. Im assuming in the books it'll be significantly different. Im leaning towards it being a more drogo resurrection where mel sacrifices shireen to try and bring back stannis. That prevents the fire wight problem but creates the problem of what happens when your consciousness is in a direwolf for an extended period of time.

[Dragonsbone]

The death of Jon Snow needed to happen, for several reasons:

1. Him leaving the Nights Watch.

2. To parallel the Azor Ahai Prophecy. I know, it is not clear if Jon is Azor Ahai. It could also be Danny or someone else. But in the end, it helps the author to make the prophecy to fit with more then one character. This way, the prophecy stays vague and the readers can argue even years after the final book is released  (oh the irony) who Azor Ahai is. 

3. As GRRM said in July, to parallel the Ice and Fire metaphor. Again, not the only one, but still one of them. Ice Whights vs. Fire Whights. By this Statement by the way, GRRM clearly stated which force will bring him back. Not Bran, nor Bloodraven, but the magic of R'hllor. The obvious character to bring hin back to life is Melissandre. 

Also Alan Taylor, the Director of this weeks Episode, told to the Media that GRRM has already told the Director in 2010 (and the show runners of course) that the whole point of the story is Jon and Danny coming together. Again a metaphor for Ice and Fire. I know, the people who don't like this idea of these two characters coming together won't be happy and in denial, but that is what is going to happen. It does not have to end well for the two of them, of course. And I certainly have no idea how a Fire Whight, in whos veins does not run blood (according to GRRM), will ever be able to get a boner, but GRRM will find a way. As for the show, I do not think that they are going that way with his body and ressurection. In the show he is basically still the same Jon.  

 

[ramla]

I wonder how the events in varamyr sixskins Prologue will mirror jons. His last feeling the cold. Does he go into the wall? ghost? the wights in the cells? Does he warg ghost while Mell perserves his body with the fires of Rhllor? and he wargs back into his own dead body?

wth... i can't wait. lol

[Le Cygne]

Show Beric is presented like a regular guy, Thoros was his friend, no doubt he could have lady friends, everything he does is magic, so why not do everything.

[Le Cygne]

So Sandra finally has enough of Littlefinger. So she finds out more things, but she already knew enough. And suddenly, it's fine to kill him.

[Le Cygne]

They should just make Shade of the Lamp a regular character. To just call attention to all the things getting in the way of things making sense. Of course, he'd be in every scene.

[Le Cygne]

dup

[The Bard of Banefort]

I saw someone summarize their relationship with the show by saying they "enjoy watching the show, but no longer enjoy thinking about it." I think that's true for a lot of fans these days. I still know a ton of people who watch Game of Thrones, but the majority of those people rarely talk about the show as much as they used to. Maybe that's to be expected when a show goes on this long, but it's also a lot like a big-budget summer blockbuster: something successful that brings out a huge crowd, but isn't discussed much afterwards because there isn't that much there to talk about. Even the reviews I've read seem to have less enthusiasm these days. 

 

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I saw someone summarize their relationship with the show by saying they "enjoy watching the show, but no longer enjoy thinking about it." I think that's true for a lot of fans these days. I still know a ton of people who watch Game of Thrones, but the majority of those people rarely talk about the show as much as they used to. Maybe that's to be expected when a show goes on this long, but it's also a lot like a big-budget summer blockbuster: something successful that brings out a huge crowd, but isn't discussed much afterwards because there isn't that much there to talk about. Even the reviews I've read seem to have less enthusiasm these days. 

 

Yes, good summary. As soon as you turn on your brain and just think about one for a sec, the questions and illogic jumps at you. While one of its attractions in the past was that it had mystery and thinking about it you could theorize about stuff, even after it began to deviate heavily of the books. But what's the point in coming up with an answer for the Mariana Trench and floating armor. Absolutely none. So even if you turn off your brain and enjoy it at viewing, you still best forget it ASAP or your brain ends up pointing out the nonsense of it (unless of course you have a brain of a goldfish, where Benjen-ex-machina becomes great plot, because it's so great to see him again, for a sec and a hug).

"Pretty picture" and "memes" is all it has become.