Roose was a semi hero

[khal drogon]

He wasn't a hero of anything but a winner for sure. In the Game of thrones there are no heroes. Tywin and Roose are smart enough to take the North without any battle. Though what they did was dishonorable, from a commoner POV few lords slaughtering each other in a feast is much better than them coming with their army, rape and burn their homes.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Hmm, let me guess, that's because ending the war is good, because war is bad, because people get killed, right?

Now let's see how lord Bolton contributes in keeping people alive under his peace:

All about the yard, dead men hung half-frozen at the end of hempen ropes, swollen faces white with hoarfrost. Winterfell had been crawling with squatters when Bolton's van had reached the castle. More than two dozen had been driven at spearpoint from the nests they had made amongst the castle's half-ruined keeps and towers. The boldest and most truculent had been hanged, the rest put to work. Serve well, Lord Bolton told them, and he would be merciful. Stone and timber were plentiful with the wolfswood so close at hand. Stout new gates had gone up first, to replace those that had been burned. Then the collapsed roof of the Great Hall had been cleared away and a new one raised hurriedly in its stead. When the work was done, Lord Bolton hanged the workers. True to his word, he showed them mercy and did not flay a one.

(A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell)

In my view, regimes like Bolton's is among the things that would characterize a war against them as a justified war but anyone is free to be contrarian, if they think it's fun.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

28 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

He wasn't a hero of anything but a winner for sure. In the Game of thrones there are no heroes. Tywin and Roose are smart enough to take the North without any battle. Though what they did was dishonorable, from a commoner POV few lords slaughtering each other in a feast is much better than them coming with their army, rape and burn their homes.

The people of the North were, however, lucky enough to get both: slaughter at the Twins (and let's not kid ourselves - it wasn't "few lords", thousands were murdered, and most of them common soldiers), and singularly disgusting rapes back home courtesy of Ramsay Bolton, enabled and supported by Lord Roose. No, I don't believe an average northman would consider the Bolton treachery a Good Thing, even from a selfish point of view.

Calling Roose Bolton "a winner for sure" is a little bit premature, I would say. He's been sitting, and not easily, on top for half a year maybe (Westeros time, even if it's sixteen years Earth time - sigh). And the last time we looked, the situation was changing pretty dynamically.

Let Lord Bolton survive a whole year, I'll say, and then revisit the "winner for sure" topic.

[Jadakiss]

As a liege lord in war. roose was a hero to them. he ended the war and for the mean time kept all of his people safe, during a lost cause where they would have all been dead is my point

[Jadakiss]

5 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Hmm, let me guess, that's because ending the war is good, because war is bad, because people get killed, right?

Now let's see how lord Bolton contributes in keeping people alive under his peace:

All about the yard, dead men hung half-frozen at the end of hempen ropes, swollen faces white with hoarfrost. Winterfell had been crawling with squatters when Bolton's van had reached the castle. More than two dozen had been driven at spearpoint from the nests they had made amongst the castle's half-ruined keeps and towers. The boldest and most truculent had been hanged, the rest put to work. Serve well, Lord Bolton told them, and he would be merciful. Stone and timber were plentiful with the wolfswood so close at hand. Stout new gates had gone up first, to replace those that had been burned. Then the collapsed roof of the Great Hall had been cleared away and a new one raised hurriedly in its stead. When the work was done, Lord Bolton hanged the workers. True to his word, he showed them mercy and did not flay a one.

(A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell)

In my view, regimes like Bolton's is among the things that would characterize a war against them as a justified war but anyone is free to be contrarian, if they think it's fun.

 

He did the same thing maegor did. hehad them build secret tunnels and escapes etc and didnt want anyone knowing about them

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

23 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

Correct about many things. But fact is the current situation being trapped on both sides etc. that was was done, robb did keep blundering. roose could have been "loyal" and died. or be a "traitor" and lived. he was looking out for his own people and knew the situation

 

Tywin alone wouldnt wipe out the whole north who didnt knee bend. keep in mind he would have the reach/tyrells and the other kingdoms to answer when he called his banners. yes he wouldnt mass genocide but he was decapitate and go from there

I am sorry, but Roose has never looked out for his own people. He has looked out for himself. He doesn't even seem to care much what happens to House Bolton when he dies. Roose is selfish, and certainly a coward. All his actions have led to more Northern deaths, and may very well in tWoW lead to the complete destruction of his army, his Dreadfort men, and perhaps his line. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

He did the same thing maegor did. hehad them build secret tunnels and escapes etc and didnt want anyone knowing about them

1. It is not supported by the text. I don't care to debate your imagination.

2. So?

[Jon Fossoway]

20 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Hmm, let me guess, that's because ending the war is good, because war is bad, because people get killed, right?

Now let's see how lord Bolton contributes in keeping people alive under his peace:

All about the yard, dead men hung half-frozen at the end of hempen ropes, swollen faces white with hoarfrost. Winterfell had been crawling with squatters when Bolton's van had reached the castle. More than two dozen had been driven at spearpoint from the nests they had made amongst the castle's half-ruined keeps and towers. The boldest and most truculent had been hanged, the rest put to work. Serve well, Lord Bolton told them, and he would be merciful. Stone and timber were plentiful with the wolfswood so close at hand. Stout new gates had gone up first, to replace those that had been burned. Then the collapsed roof of the Great Hall had been cleared away and a new one raised hurriedly in its stead. When the work was done, Lord Bolton hanged the workers. True to his word, he showed them mercy and did not flay a one.

(A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell)

In my view, regimes like Bolton's is among the things that would characterize a war against them as a justified war but anyone is free to be contrarian, if they think it's fun.

Agreed. When he talks about 'a quiet land with quiet people' he`s talking about scared people. His rule relies mainly on scared vassals and smallfolk alike. Even Robb says Roose scares him, and the man is his subordinate. I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that lord Bolton is an ass of a human being. But he does have a way of obtaining gains from situations and curiously, the talent of slipping away when that situation is dangerous. He did that during the War of the Five Kings. Perhaps Jadakiss point is that he may do it again.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

16 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

He did the same thing maegor did. hehad them build secret tunnels and escapes etc and didnt want anyone knowing about them

Maegor the Semi-heroic, as he is called?

[UnFit Finlay]

On 01/12/2016 at 2:21 PM, Jadakiss said:

 

Take Ramsay out of it and lets say roose didnt keep his own men fresh in reserve, that war was over, just the time is the question. Roose looked out for his own men and got it over with

 

I should have made the thread that Roose is an ant type hero with his own men, all under him as a liege lord, he looked out for them and himself, and Robb screwing the freys out of the marriage might have been final nail

What?

You can't just ignore Roose's treasons and say that war would be over anyway. Robb was actually doing well. It was the people close to him that let him down: Catelyn, Theon and Edmure all contributed in various ways but Roose was actively sabotaging Robb's campaign. How could Robb possibly win the war when one of his most trusted Lords was releasing valuable prisoners, sending a third of his army into a trap and, almost certainly, ordering Ramsay to sack Winterfell? If Robb had given command of his foot to someone loyal then things would've turned out very differently.

On the second point, I don't think we know enough about Roose's men to know how they view him. I doubt very highly that he's motivated by their well-being however. He openly acknowledges that Ramsay will probably kill any sons he has with Fat Walda and says it's "for the best". The fact that he's so unconcerned about the very real possibility that his children will be murdered says rather a lot about Roose doesn't it? If anything I'd imagine his men are scared of him.

Oh, and Roose had already betrayed Robb before Robb broke his oath to the Freys. In fact, given the evidence to suggest that Jeyne was a "honeypot", it wouldn't shock me if Roose had some involvement in it. He needed Walder to break faith with Robb, after all.

[John Doe]

On 1.12.2016 at 6:55 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If by "weird" you meant "a lie", then I concur, it is a lie.

We are perfectly OK with judging people with in-universe standards. And it's really not as if the Red Wedding wasn't considered revolting in-universe. And it's not as if Tywin Lannister isn't considered a ruthless monster in-universe. But you are aware of all that, and manufacture the pitiful "double standards" strawman to get a, hopefully, enraged reaction.

I get that it's five years between books for you and you're bored, but it's the same five years for me, thus I just don't feel like being enraged by such lazy a try. Sorry.

It isn't a lie at all, and if you want to get some drama going, I'll withdraw from the thread peacefully. But you did not even respond to what I was saying. I did not dispute that Tywin was considered ruthless by some characters, or that not everyone is okay with the Red Wedding. I was quoting specific actions, and what the reactions of no small number of posters on forums like these are.

And I did not mean all fans, or even a majority, but a large number compared to other houses. Of course I'm still very sorry if I hurt your feelings as a fan though.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

5 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

... But he does have a way of obtaining gains from situations and curiously, the talent of slipping away when that situation is dangerous. He did that during the War of the Five Kings. Perhaps Jadakiss point is that he may do it again.

There's nothing heroic in that, though. Not even semi-heroic 

Now, if we were talking about Roose the oportunistic survivor, and were the OP proposing this argument, he might have a point.

[Jadakiss]

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I am sorry, but Roose has never looked out for his own people. He has looked out for himself. He doesn't even seem to care much what happens to House Bolton when he dies. Roose is selfish, and certainly a coward. All his actions have led to more Northern deaths, and may very well in tWoW lead to the complete destruction of his army, his Dreadfort men, and perhaps his line. 

Where he cares about his own men can be debated, most likely he does not. but does not change the fact he saved them from a lost cause, he saved the north from another reynes of castamere

[UnFit Finlay]

20 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

Where he cares about his own men can be debated, most likely he does not. but does not change the fact he saved them from a lost cause, he saved the north from another reynes of castamere

You also can't change the fact that Roose was a huge reason that the war became a "lost cause" in the first place.

You can't praise him for "saving the North" from a situation that he was largely responsible for creating can you?

[Jadakiss]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

You also can't change the fact that Roose was a huge reason that the war became a "lost cause" in the first place.

You can't praise him for "saving the North" from a situation that he was largely responsible for creating can you?

 

i disagree. I know about how the sending the certain men into battle to die and all that. But before that he showed a few times where he retreated in good order. imo he didnt start to fuck things up until he made up his mind that robb was a moron and they were going to lose the war, so he started to keep his own men alive

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

Where he cares about his own men can be debated, most likely he does not. but does not change the fact he saved them from a lost cause, he saved the north from another reynes of castamere

No, he was the reynes of castamere. He literally slaughtered the northern host, basically most of the northern defeats and of course the red wedding itself, can be layed directly at his feet. He was a tool that Tywin Lannister used to inact his vengeance. And by dividig the North (which if Robb was still alive, they would not be divided) he has led to a civil war in his own area which will lead to the practical destruction of all northern armies and leave the north basically defenseless against the others. How do you think saving works? When you lead your people to their destruction, that is the opposite of saving. 

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 11/30/2016 at 9:49 PM, Jadakiss said:

The war ended because of his help. Yes he sent many to their deaths etc, he is an ass thats for sure.

But mistake after mistake by Robb it was a matter of time before the war ended. He had iron born to his back and the crown to his front. Roose was what the north needed in a sick way. They would have lost the war and all been put to the sword, in a way he looked out for his own.

Yes red wedding many were killed who were the super strong robb supporters, but if left alive his new regime would have been in danger from other northern house. He wasnt the man they wanted but was the man they needed

Roose watched his house get dragged to war, twice in less than 20 years because a member of the Stark family took it upon themselves to do something stupid.  The first time it was Rickard plotting against the Targaryens (Southron Ambitions), Lyanna running off with Rhaegar.  This time, Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion Lannister and Ned tried to take Joffrey's throne (Ned made a public admission and for all everyone knew it was the truth).  I can understand why Roose would want to remove the Starks from power. 

 

[WSmith84]

55 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Roose watched his house get dragged to war, twice in less than 20 years because a member of the Stark family took it upon themselves to do something stupid.  The first time it was Rickard plotting against the Targaryens (Southron Ambitions), Lyanna running off with Rhaegar.  This time, Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion Lannister and Ned tried to take Joffrey's throne (Ned made a public admission and for all everyone knew it was the truth).  I can understand why Roose would want to remove the Starks from power.

I like how you manage to shift the blame of the Rebellion onto Rickard and Lyanna (a 14-15 year old girl), but not Rhaegar (and if you're gonna blame Lyanna, you need to blame him) or Aerys (the one who killed 2 Starks and wanted a 3rd dead, as well as Robert).

Roose might have been tired of fighting Stark wars. Of course, part of a lord's responsibility is to respond to his liege's summons. Just as Tywin's men responded to his on no less than 3 occasions.

[Roswell]

On 12/1/2016 at 4:01 PM, khal drogon said:

He wasn't a hero of anything but a winner for sure. In the Game of thrones there are no heroes. Tywin and Roose are smart enough to take the North without any battle. Though what they did was dishonorable, from a commoner POV few lords slaughtering each other in a feast is much better than them coming with their army, rape and burn their homes.

 

You could say Roose was dishonorable but he did the realm a favor when he ended Robb Stark's rebellion. 

[The Drunkard]

An 'ends justify the means' defense only makes sense if you think Roose actually cares about achieving a good end. He never claims to care about the North, or his men, or ending the war, or justice, or w/e else. He betrayed the Starks and conducted the Red Wedding because he saw an opportunity to take power. And he didn't even secure the North, since half of it is rebelling against him and he's had to perpetrate several other evil means to hold what he does.