Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

[Theda Baratheon]

Truly frightening stuff  and it’s this type of thing I think of when people tell me misogyny doesn’t exist anymore...

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, Seli said:

I can imagine, I can only take it in small doses and I am hardly the target of these people.

Just read the article...horrifying...thank god theres so many comments of people equally horrified and bewildered by incels

[mankytoes]

10 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Extremely nihilistic - the only 'hope' they give themselves is the PUA approach of being told to lose a ton of weight by hitting the gym, getting fit and then as some weird over arching revenge on womenfolk try to emotionally manipulate as many as possible. 

I don' know how to change either - I never bully and ridicule people in person (cant be helped online sometimes...) the ridiculed bit...not bullying.

I just cant really feel sympathy for them because I'm a woman who hasn't had sex in many years...and like...there's feeling a bit down on yourself and lonely occasionally and then there' whatever the fuck they are. 

I wish I still had some of there's hehe screenshots people would post of their discussion threads just to prove theresheyhehehe  got that bad because they were honestly so terrifying (which is why I deleted them) 

That isn't really PUA (not most of it, anyway). They actually tend to relatively downplay the importance of looks, and emphasise psychological tactics (would be seen by most as emotional manipulation). It's a distinction that seems to have escaped the mainstream reporting of this- I read a lot of articles linking Elliot Rodgers with PUA, which was quite funny considering literally the point of this forum was to hate PUA. This stuff is next level... PUA is cynical, incel is, as you say, extremely nihilistic. That's a big difference. 

I guess the difference would be to stand up to people, but I think most of this stuff happens in childhood, it's too late really. As a teenager I didn't really any confidence in my looks. Like, I didn't not ask out girls because I was afraid they would say no, I was afraid they would laugh at me, and tell everyone, and everyone else would laugh at me... I think you can imagine the sort of effect that mindset could have on someone in the long term. It wasn't really that bad at my school, because not many of my friends ever had girlfriends. One time a girl asked me out as a joke, it wasn't really that humiliating because I kind of suspected, so I was just like "if you want", but that kind of thing is what I imagine sparks a lot of this. I'm not saying she was some terrible person, I did meaner things than that at school, but if you think that was my only experience of being asked out by a girl, something cruel, designed to humiliate me... I think it's not that hard to see where this misogyny can originate. 

I do think there is a mirror of kinds in some of the really radical feminist stuff you see, they idea that all women are manipulative is kind of reflected in the idea that all men are dangerous, potential rapists, you see a real anger towards any person of the opposite gender. 

To go down the more psychological route, it's got to start with dehumanisation. If you see all women as inherently malevolent, you aren't going to have a problem saying these things to them, because they don't feel things like real people do. It's the same mindset that allows slavery and things like that. 

10 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'd seen that piece as well, and I agree with your take on it pretty much. I can agree with trying to have more sympathy for people who are struggling, but that's not what the incel community is contrary to what that article is trying to claim for the majority. I've been on the edge of self annihilation due to intense self loathing, these men have hit that point and externalised their problem. They have decided that the solution to them being unattractive is the literal enslavement of half the human species to the other half. They do not see women as people, they do not acknowledge that women have any right to any say in their own lives or their bodies.

The whole point of toxic masculinity is that individual men are not to blame, that its a societal construct that is damaging to men as well as women. But no, just regurgitate these points without contesting them so that people think its the accepted truth. It also talks about Jordan Peterson like he's some benevolent academic that just wants to reach out to these poor troubled men when he's shot to prominence on the back of transphobia. He hit the news by refusing to follow his employers instruction to use transgender students preferred name and pronoun and he's become a darling of the alt right for that reason.

The real scary thing is that by default it is indeed only a small number of people that fall into this, however they actively recruit others and indoctrinate them into this world view and that is the true threat and why it needs to be addressed by saving people from becoming this. Those who are vulnerable are in the pit of utter self loathing and the various hate mongers (its not just incels, its white supremacists, its nazis) are taking these people and convincing them that x group is the cause of their misery and that they just need to hate and dominate.

I think there's a lot of truth in that, do you internalise or externalise your anger? Interalising, in the way of actual self criticism, is probably more difficult, and may result in outcomes as bad as self destruction. Maybe it's a natural impulse to want to externalise this. And again, feelings of personal sexual worthliness are far from trivial, in men or women.

I'm not fan of Peterson, at least not overall, but I don't really see your logic. Why do his views against trans people mean he can't help these young men? To me, that is like saying Indians see Ghandi as a hero and liberator, but really he held racist views against black people. People like to define public figures as either good or bad, but most are both.

It's hard to see it becoming a real mass movement for me. Like racial supremacy, you can see why that works, you get told you're better than most other people, who doesn't like hearing that? Whereas being incel, that is, wanting sex and failing to get sex, makes you a loser, in basically any society at any point in history. I don't see them every being as appealing as racists (not that incels aren't racist. I've read a lot of talk on how Asian men are inherently unattractive to women, and how the classic Aryan look is the best). 

[Larry of the Lawn]

9 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

 

I do think there is a mirror of kinds in some of the really radical feminist stuff you see, they idea that all women are manipulative is kind of reflected in the idea that all men are dangerous, potential rapists, you see a real anger towards any person of the opposite gender. 

 

 

 

 

This is a bad comparison.  Where's the radical feminist group advocating violence against men and celebrating rape?  Sounds an awful lot like the straw feminist that always pops up.

[mankytoes]

23 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

This is a bad comparison.  Where's the radical feminist group advocating violence against men and celebrating rape?  Sounds an awful lot like the straw feminist that always pops up.

I'm saying it's the equivalent, not the same. Imagine taking your views of rapists, and applying that to a whole gender? Imagine the raw hatred you would feel about going about your day to day life? Imagine being this woman- https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I'm not talking about feminists, or even radical feminists, I'm talking about the fringe of radical feminism. 

What are rapists? Rapists are monsters, rapists have lost their humanity, fell into evil, bestial ways. I read a thing condemning Germaine Greer's transphobia, saying she described a transwoman's handshake as a "rapist's grip". Note they weren't offended by the idea of describing a generic man's handshake as a rapist's grip, which seems to inherently support the "all men are rapists" idea. That's not a controversial thing for a radical feminist to say. 

Most people feel these radical feminists hate transwomen. But do they really think they hate them more than they hate men? They hate them because they see them as men. That level of hatred was pretty much tolerated, until trans people gained mainstream recognition. 

What I'm saying is, these beliefs have to come from somewhere. People don't just start hating a whole group of society without some instigation, or at least a perceived instigation. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

24 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I'm saying it's the equivalent, not the same. Imagine taking your views of rapists, and applying that to a whole gender? Imagine the raw hatred you would feel about going about your day to day life? Imagine being this woman- https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I'm not talking about feminists, or even radical feminists, I'm talking about the fringe of radical feminism. 

What are rapists? Rapists are monsters, rapists have lost their humanity, fell into evil, bestial ways. I read a thing condemning Germaine Greer's transphobia, saying she described a transwoman's handshake as a "rapist's grip". Note they weren't offended by the idea of describing a generic man's handshake as a rapist's grip, which seems to inherently support the "all men are rapists" idea. That's not a controversial thing for a radical feminist to say. 

Most people feel these radical feminists hate transwomen. But do they really think they hate them more than they hate men? They hate them because they see them as men. That level of hatred was pretty much tolerated, until trans people gained mainstream recognition. 

What I'm saying is, these beliefs have to come from somewhere. People don't just start hating a whole group of society without some instigation, or at least a perceived instigation. 

I understand you're saying it's equivalent.  I'm saying it's a bad comparison and a false equivalence.  

And your example is one blog post, that seems to be the extent of that concept on the entire internet.   

And the "all men are rapists idea" isn't equivalent to this incel stuff either. I agree the TERF stuff is awful but I think you're making a connection that isn't there. 

The only way they are connected concepts is that "all men are rapists" is created by rape culture and toxic masculinity.  

 

[Seli]

58 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

That isn't really PUA (not most of it, anyway). They actually tend to relatively downplay the importance of looks, and emphasise psychological tactics (would be seen by most as emotional manipulation). It's a distinction that seems to have escaped the mainstream reporting of this- I read a lot of articles linking Elliot Rodgers with PUA, which was quite funny considering literally the point of this forum was to hate PUA. This stuff is next level... PUA is cynical, incel is, as you say, extremely nihilistic. That's a big difference.

It is different in details, but both are based in the exact same objectification and de-personalization of women.

58 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I do think there is a mirror of kinds in some of the really radical feminist stuff you see, they idea that all women are manipulative is kind of reflected in the idea that all men are dangerous, potential rapists, you see a real anger towards any person of the opposite gender.

That is not the message. The idea is that you can't tell which man is a dangerous potential rapist.

Which is a world of difference from seeing all women as tokens that don't act in the way the PUA or incel or whatever other bunch of misogynists we are talking about deem proper.

[Theda Baratheon]

Yeah...I basically don’t know if I agree with any of that post at all...

if anything if you are going to make an equivalency with ‘man hating feminists’.............then it would be the Men Going Their Own Way and even that’s not a great comparison...they’re horrible misogynists who apparently just want to stay the hell away from women. 

Incel is something totally diferent...they hate women and attractive men and anyone who isn’t them but strangely enough they also hate themselves anyway 

I was bullied throughout the whole of school, I’ve hardly been on any dates or had any kind of sexual/romantic encounter at all, I have suffered from depression in the past...and yet...never have I once felt even a tenth, hell a one HUNDRETH (I’m not good at maths but humour me my point) of that kind of vitriolic hatred for anyone not finding me attractive...it just isn’t a normal step to make...I understand what leads people to these communities but if they find them and actually stick around after reading even a few posts then no I don’t understand or sympathise with that and if they start writing 1000 word forum posts about their glee over future acid attacks against women then I wish they’d fall off the face of the earth 

it takes freaking LEAPS AND BOUNDS to go from sad and ugly to writing detailed handmaids tale fan fiction basically of all incels having their own young virgin child brides and the rest of women executed or imprisoned...

i mean this is so warped and down the sick rabbit hole I have no sympathy for the men WITHIN this community at all...

and you not thinking it’s a movement doesn’t mean it isn’t- I’ve seen this shit building up for years 

 

[mankytoes]

I don't think I properly contextualised my comments. What I'm saying is, the small number of men who hate women, or women who hate men- I don't want to excuse bigotry, but these feelings have a cause. There's got to be a deep resentment somewhere. If you can't see the misandry within radical feminism, I don't really know how I can argue this, it isn't like they're subtle. You can read articles on mainstream websites like- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/nov/02/whyihatemen

I think the point about the reaction to TERFS (I was thinking I was going off topic, but actually, looking at the thread title, I think I'm actually going on topic)  is valid though. People have got so upset- because they treat trans people like they treat men. It's like the issue with anti semitism we're trying to deal with on the British left. People have totally justified problems with Israel, but they end up attracting anti semites, and basically tolerating their presence. 

I know my views on feminism, or at least on the feminist movement, are more mixed than most people on here, but it's important to acknowledge one thing- they are right. The basic principles of feminism are correct, and it's almost unarguable at this point, that's why conservatives almost always will rely on ad hominem or just outright mockery instead of approaching the core of the issues. But it's inevitable that opposing patriarchy will attract misandrists, just like opposing Israel attracts Jew haters. The success of these movements will be at least partly decided by how willing and effective they are at isolating and condemning their toxic elements.

An example of this would be the pro peadophillia movement in the 70s. I don't think most people understand today that these were very real, and active groups, and groups like the Peadophile Information Exchange, who wanted to abolish the age of consent, were affiliated with gay rights and civil liberties groups. It's absolutely unthinkable today that a major gay rights' group would advocate legalising sex with twelve year olds, 

[Week]

19 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

The success of these movements will be at least partly decided by how willing and effective they are at isolating and condemning their toxic elements.

Tone policing is not the job of the oppressed. 

Eta- Not in the mainstream and especially not on the fringes. You are also drawing a false equivalence, again, please point to recent acts of violence by extreme feminists that ought to be addressed. The right has many  views with varying degrees of misogyny supported by the mainstream. The absurd radical, dangerous misandrist does not exist in a form that is a clear and present danger as opposed to the right.

[mankytoes]

6 minutes ago, Week said:

Tone policing is not the job of the oppressed. 

Being oppressed doesn't justify bigotry. It isn't ok to hate people because of their gender, race, religion, sexuality, do I really have to argue this?

Your argument is the same as the incels. They feel oppressed, so their behaviour is justified. That is how they justify what they say and what they do. It's like "yeah, maybe that guy went too far with the rape comments, but the real issue is that women have all the privilege in society and we're completely excluded, so don't worry about what we say, look at what they do". 

[Xray the Enforcer]

I'm so very glad that the feminism thread is, yet again, full a dudes telling women how to feel and act.

[karaddin]

4 hours ago, mankytoes said:

 

What are rapists? Rapists are monsters, rapists have lost their humanity, fell into evil, bestial ways. I read a thing condemning Germaine Greer's transphobia, saying she described a transwoman's handshake as a "rapist's grip". Note they weren't offended by the idea of describing a generic man's handshake as a rapist's grip, which seems to inherently support the "all men are rapists" idea. That's not a controversial thing for a radical feminist to say. 

Most people feel these radical feminists hate transwomen. But do they really think they hate them more than they hate men? They hate them because they see them as men. 

I don't blame you for thinking this, because it's certainly now they want it to be perceived, but its not remotely true. TERFs are obsessively fixated on hating trans women (and its specifically trans women, they misgender trans men but they don't hate them) far past the point of how they feel about men. They ally themselves with MRA groups for the purposes of harassing trans women, tag team with them online, share information etc. They explicitly identify trans women as somehow the greatest oppressors of women despite being a marginalised and tiny percentage of the population.

Germaine Greer is awful and I'm not just talking about her transphobia. She's publicly spoken about boys in a way that disgusting, she criticises women in a very sexist way, she's delved into rape apologia lately. Her original value as a feminist was tainted by other awful views (ie TERF) but at this point she's just acting out of self interest, perpetuating her brand as a provocateur so the media keeps booking her. She's got more in common with Trump than feminism in that respect.

[mankytoes]

20 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

I'm so very glad that the feminism thread is, yet again, full a dudes telling women how to feel and act.

That isn't refuting my argument at all. I'm not actually telling "women" how to act at all, I'm telling feminists what I think they need to do to reach their goals. Not all feminists are women, and not all women are feminists. In fact, a quick count shows me I've just disagreed with three dudes and one lady. 

This certainly is not a gendered thing, I've often found male feminists can be amongst the most resistant to this thinking. This goes beyond identity, just like with the Jewish thing I mentioned. 

12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I don't blame you for thinking this, because it's certainly now they want it to be perceived, but its not remotely true. TERFs are obsessively fixated on hating trans women (and its specifically trans women, they misgender trans men but they don't hate them) far past the point of how they feel about men. They ally themselves with MRA groups for the purposes of harassing trans women, tag team with them online, share information etc. They explicitly identify trans women as somehow the greatest oppressors of women despite being a marginalised and tiny percentage of the population.

Germaine Greer is awful and I'm not just talking about her transphobia. She's publicly spoken about boys in a way that disgusting, she criticises women in a very sexist way, she's delved into rape apologia lately. Her original value as a feminist was tainted by other awful views (ie TERF) but at this point she's just acting out of self interest, perpetuating her brand as a provocateur so the media keeps booking her. She's got more in common with Trump than feminism in that respect.

That's probably true, but let me ask, why do they hate transwomen so much? I mean I've not really seen any group hate trans people so obsessively, certainly not one that is usually associated with the political left. Plenty of people don't respect trans people, they don't accept the basic premise that there is a separation between biological sex and gender. But they don't care that much. TERFS care because they hate men, and their hatred of transwomen follows on from that. If you aren't a sexist, whether you accept the idea of trans people or not, why would you care? If you view men and women equally, who cares if you want to be one or the other? You have to be a sexist. Either sexist against men, or women, and I think it's very clear that it's men who they are sexist against. 

Does that count as tone policing, Week? Of course, you're correct, I would only add that Greer should be a warning about demagoguery, because she is very charismatic, witty and eloquent, which of course doesn't mean any of her views are positive at all. I would only question how worrying it is that figures like Greer and other early feminists who are now considered "problematic" were so significant in the feminist movement, and how much modern day influence they have. 

And let me be clear on my motive here again, because people don't seem to recognise this, or maybe they just think I'm lying, but I argue this because I want feminism, at least in the broad sense, to succeed. I feel like in my day to day life people's expectations of others, particularly subconsciously, are too strongly based on gender. So this isn't like my view on incels, who don't even really have a goal, let alone one I support. 

[Week]

30 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Being oppressed doesn't justify bigotry. It isn't ok to hate people because of their gender, race, religion, sexuality, do I really have to argue this?

Your argument is the same as the incels. They feel oppressed, so their behaviour is justified. That is how they justify what they say and what they do. It's like "yeah, maybe that guy went too far with the rape comments, but the real issue is that women have all the privilege in society and we're completely excluded, so don't worry about what we say, look at what they do". 

There is a difference between feeling oppressed and being oppressed. I don't care how "they" justify what they say -- it is indefensible and providing them a shred of legitimacy is abhorrent. Your last line makes no fuck sense. Sorry.

[Week]

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

That isn't refuting my argument at all. I'm not actually telling "women" how to act at all, I'm telling feminists what I think they need to do to reach their goals.

lolok

[mankytoes]

20 minutes ago, Week said:

There is a difference between feeling oppressed and being oppressed. I don't care how "they" justify what they say -- it is indefensible and providing them a shred of legitimacy is abhorrent. Your last line makes no fuck sense. Sorry.

And neither justify bigotry. Incels may not be oppressed, but they're hardly successful or powerful people, are they? They're literally defined by a major failure in their lives.

I really like to think you wrote that on purpose...

[JGP]

1 hour ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

I'm so very glad that the feminism thread is, yet again, full a dudes telling women how to feel and act.

The title of the thread stopped registering after I read Theda's latest post. This whole incel thing is quite new [to me] but due to the Toronto attack et other shit I've been reading lately, no small of amount of my thoughts have revolved around that MALE problem. So, if this quote above was directed in any wayshapeform at me, X-Ray-- I apologize.

ETA: Maybe a different thread for that topic is more appropriate.

ETA Part Deux: And don't invite mankytoes. 

[Week]

14 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

And neither justify bigotry. Incels may not be oppressed, but they're hardly successful or powerful people, are they? They're literally defined by a major failure in their lives.

I really like to think you wrote that on purpose...

There is no credible accusation of bigotry within feminism (on this count). The 'other' side here is defined by their bigotry. It's insulting to draw an equivalence. 

And, yes, I did write it that way on purpose.

Eta- yes, this thread is probably not the place. Apologies. We ought to collect mankytoes.

[JGP]

4 minutes ago, Week said:

Eta- yes, this thread is probably not the place. Apologies. We ought to collect mankytoes.

There's something about the way manky thinks out loud that I don't like. Everything seems to circle back to women,when, re: incels, women are only [only? how horrid] the victims. Again.