Melifeather Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 30 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Nevertheless, it's a great observation you've made, and 'inversions' will always bear your name, at least for me ! You really jogged something in my brain, upon reading some of those first essays of yours on the HOBAW. Thank you for your kind words! I take a lot of crap actually about my inversion theories, but only time will tell what kind of Patchface fool I am. One that just jangles her head from side to side singing incoherently or if I've stumbled upon a way to decipher the Jabberwocky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: I was posting an addition when you posted, so you may have missed that Jon as Night's King could defeat Ramsay Lord of Winterfell prior to the showdown with dragons at the Trident, which would actually be closer to the Torrhen/Brandon situation. This time the King in the North is the bastard Jon Snow and the dragon killer brother is Bran. This would also explain the voices in the crypts of the angry Stark ancestors telling him that the he doesn't belong there....doesn't belong with the dead. I completely agree with Jon's armor is one of black fiery flame...burning ice. I love the idea of brother Bran as dragon killer! It also fits with the Norse legend of Sigmund and Sigurd (the latter a Bran figure) in which the magical sword the 'Branstokkr' (literally 'Bran stick') placed in the tree by Odin (another Bran figure) can only be wielded by Sigurd -- who then uses it to slay the dragon Fafnir. Isn't it Jon who keeps saying he doesn't belong there? Although we still need to explain why he feels compelled to go down there in the first place? Quote A Game of Thrones - Jon IV "Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked. Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked. If @Black Crow is correct that the 'Lewis' chess set design for the king chess pieces is the inspiration for the configuration of the Kings of Winter, specifically with their swords laid out across their laps; taken together with the assumption that Jon represents the 'king' figure in the 'game,' then Jon is the next King of Winter -- which means this is indeed his place, but not imprisoned in the stone; he must awake -- be resurrected and conduct his business above ground... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Thank you for your kind words! I take a lot of crap actually about my inversion theories, but only time will tell what kind of Patchface fool I am. One that just jangles her head from side to side singing incoherently or if I've stumbled upon a way to decipher the Jabberwocky. He he. Don't worry -- I will be right there beside you singing my own Jibberjabberwocky! On a serious note though, I'm convinced that GRRM has a geometric mind well adapted to thinking of chessboards, anticipating multiple permutations of moves up ahead and reliving the sequence in reverse of ones that have come before. He loves thinking in terms of 'right' and 'left' and flipping them. The universe is constructed in terms of 'mirrors', so why shouldn't our brains be predisposed to do the same? For example, in chemistry there's a term for molecules that are mirror images of each other, often with surprisingly different properties, 'enantiomers' given the designation D- (Latin 'dexter') and S-(Latin 'sinister') for the 'right-handed' and 'left-handed' molecules respectively. Just think of Jaime -- my favorite character -- he's all about the interplay of the right and the left, the black and the white, the dexterous rogue and the sinister champion...and inversing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Isn't it Jon who keeps saying he doesn't belong there? Although we still need to explain why he feels compelled to go down there in the first place? If @Black Crow is correct that the 'Lewis' chess set design for the king chess pieces is the inspiration for the configuration of the Kings of Winter, specifically with their swords laid out across their laps; taken together with the assumption that Jon represents the 'king' figure in the 'game,' then Jon is the next King of Winter -- which means this is indeed his place, but not imprisoned in the stone; he must awake -- be resurrected and conduct his business above ground... Something - or someone - is drawing him down there, but in the meantime I'd make an observation about his apparent slaying. In questioning how he will be resurrected and by what magic and by whom; or for that matter whether its only a flesh wound from which he'll recover, we may be missing the point. We're treating this death business as a little local difficulty which is going to cause a deal of inconvenience, but if that's the case then what's the point - really? What if he actually needs to die in order to move on - literally. If a hero needs to physically enter into the Land of Always Winter where it is so cold that nothing can live, then it will need another Coldhands to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Something - or someone - is drawing him down there, but in the meantime I'd make an observation about his apparent slaying. In questioning how he will be resurrected and by what magic and by whom; or for that matter whether its only a flesh wound from which he'll recover, we may be missing the point. We're treating this death business as a little local difficulty which is going to cause a deal of inconvenience, but if that's the case then what's the point - really? What if he actually needs to die in order to move on - literally. If a hero needs to physically enter into the Land of Always Winter where it is so cold that nothing can live, then it will need another Coldhands to go there. You've read @LmL's 'zombie skinchanger' essay, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 55 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: The idea of the Wall already being a natural formation reminds me of the Milkwater vision as conveyed to Jon via the warg reconnaissance facilitated by Ghost, in which the front of the Milkwater glacier is described as a wall. So perhaps there always was a Wall, but then when the glacier retreated, humans built one its image, noting how useful it had been! Except you're saying the Wall is basically a volcanic protrusion covered in ice, instead of merely consisting of ice? Someone, quite a ways back in heresy, made a good case for the Wall itself being a form of glacier, although I forget the details. Personally, I'm sticking with it being a magical construct, an evil thing made of blood as Ygritte put it. Its been suggested a number of times in these pages that it wasn't raised up by physical means, but absorbs Winter itself, protecting the realms of men from the icy blast and perhaps, with a nod to Ygritte we might take that further and if Winter is reckoned to be cold, black and malevolent then there must indeed be a lot of malevolence stored up within the Wall, which one day might burst forth as the Long Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 13 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: You've read @LmL's 'zombie skinchanger' essay, right? Some interesting stuff, but as always I was thinking along simpler lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, Black Crow said: 'fraid not, but I suppose I'd better now you've drawn my attention to it. It's basically the same premise you're suggesting. Based on the examples we've been given of fire resurrection on the one hand which eats away at the soul and memories of the resurrected person, and on the other hand the ice resurrection which results in mindless remote-controlled zombies, he's positing a third alternative -- namely, that only a skinchanger's soul can survive the resurrection process intact, by being sequestered in the 'soul jar' of the skinchanger-greenseer's wolf/tree while his body is being resurrected. Thereafter, the soul fully cognizant and intact returns to the body, which no longer has the vulnerability of physical needs (need for food, warmth, shelter, etc.), so better suited to withstand the cold and engage in even-handed combat with the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, GloubieBoulga said: Grey King, I have forgot him, but yes. For me, Theon will (re)play his part. As you suggest about the bastard saved by the "Bran/crow", I think you can count Theon as one of the bastard character (or the other face of the same coin = Jon + Theon) : both Theon and Jon aren't totally Stark and are rejected by Catelyn or mistreated. That could also explain why Bran in the weirwood is trying to save Theon. I don't know if Jon will received a crown at the end, but Theon could receive one. I agree there seems to be a theme about trueborns making reparations towards bastards. Regarding who will be crowned, 'only a godly man can sit the seastone chair'...'Theon' -- the name GRRM chose for him for a reason, not entirely ironic -- means 'godly.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: I love the idea of brother Bran as dragon killer! It also fits with the Norse legend of Sigmund and Sigurd (the latter a Bran figure) in which the magical sword the 'Branstokkr' (literally 'Bran stick') placed in the tree by Odin (another Bran figure) can only be wielded by Sigurd -- who then uses it to slay the dragon Fafnir. Isn't it Jon who keeps saying he doesn't belong there? Although we still need to explain why he feels compelled to go down there in the first place? If @Black Crow is correct that the 'Lewis' chess set design for the king chess pieces is the inspiration for the configuration of the Kings of Winter, specifically with their swords laid out across their laps; taken together with the assumption that Jon represents the 'king' figure in the 'game,' then Jon is the next King of Winter -- which means this is indeed his place, but not imprisoned in the stone; he must awake -- be resurrected and conduct his business above ground... IMO Jon's transformation is in this order: death, then resurrection via fire magic, transformation into Night's King, armored in fiery black ice, takes over as Lord of Winterfell, then declares himself King in the North. I think the dream about the Kings of Winter in the crypts was foreshadowing of his death, but he won't be interred with the rest of them, but will live as an undead/resurrected above ground. 23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: It's basically the same premise you're suggesting. Based on the examples we've been given of fire resurrection on the one hand which eats away at the soul and memories of the resurrected person, and on the other hand the ice resurrection which results in mindless remote-controlled zombies, he's positing a third alternative -- namely, that only a skinchanger's soul can survive the resurrection process intact, by being sequestered in the 'soul jar' of the skinchanger-greenseer's wolf/tree while his body is being resurrected. Thereafter, the soul fully cognizant and intact returns to the body, which no longer has the vulnerability of physical needs (need for food, warmth, shelter, etc.), so better suited to withstand the cold and engage in even-handed combat with the Others. The soul jar concept is contrary to the example provided in the books with regards to Varamyr. When Varamyr died his connection to his body was severed and he could not return to it. He only managed to move into One Eye, because he had an unsevered connection to his wolf. If Jon dies his spirit needs to remain in the body. Varamyr left his body voluntarily, because he sought to live a second life in Thistle. He thought if he died with his soul inside his body that it was dead for good. I fear if Jon's soul leaves his body prior to death of body, he cannot be put back in. He could stay in Ghost however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 53 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: IMO Jon's transformation is in this order: death, then resurrection via fire magic, transformation into Night's King, armored in fiery black ice, takes over as Lord of Winterfell, then declares himself King in the North. I think the dream about the Kings of Winter in the crypts was foreshadowing of his death, but he won't be interred with the rest of them, but will live as an undead/resurrected above ground. The soul jar concept is contrary to the example provided in the books with regards to Varamyr. When Varamyr died his connection to his body was severed and he could not return to it. He only managed to move into One Eye, because he had an unsevered connection to his wolf. If Jon dies his spirit needs to remain in the body. Varamyr left his body voluntarily, because he sought to live a second life in Thistle. He thought if he died with his soul inside his body that it was dead for good. I fear if Jon's soul leaves his body prior to death of body, he cannot be put back in. He could stay in Ghost however. No, I don't believe is is contrary at all. When a skin-changer dies, his soul goes into his animal to begin what is called Second Life. This is different from what happens to the soul of anyone else when they die. Beric was resurrected right after he died, and yet he lost a lot of himself in the process - and from this we can conclude that the soul of non-skinchangers suffers some degree of immediate dissolution upon death. My theory is that if there is a way to get a skin-changer soul out of the animal (which is theoretical, because we have not seen that happen yet) after he's begun second life but BEFORE he has merged into the animal spirit, the soul might not be as degraded as that of Beric or lady Catelyn. That is the aninal as soul jar idea. It's simply a way of describing a skinchanger beginning second life in their animal. Jon's soul should be going into Ghost as he is dying at end of ADWD - and really, this is made abundantly clear by foreshadowing and symbolism, including the name of the wolf being "Ghost" - so if there is any chance of seeing Jon resurrected, we ARE going to have to see Jon's spirit leave Ghost's and return to his body somehow. I don't think anyone believes he will be stuck in Ghost for the rest of the story. And he is most definitely dead. My theory is that if we can get John out of the wolf and back into his resurrected body in a certain amount of time, we'll get a better zombie that we did with Beric, precisely because Jon is a skin-changer. This also makes sense from a narrative point of view, as I don't think Martin is going to give us Jon pov's where he's only half there and can't remember his previous life and whatnot, like Beric.But not needing to sleep or eat or seek warmth - now those would be useful attributes to have if one needs to journey into the cold dead lands.That's what we see with Coldhands - as a conscious wight, he is ideally suited to range the North in perpetuity. As to Varamyr, he's only showing us one part of the proposed process - he dies, and then goes into his wolf. Jon will do the same thing. What we need then, is for someone to come along and resurrect Jon's body, and then we'll need somebody to help facilitate the transfer of the soul back into the resurrected body. Jon probably cannot accomplish this transfer himself, just as Varamyr is stuck inside his wolf after dying and just as we learn that skinchangers who begin second life can no longer skinchange back out. In other words, he's going to need help in two different areas - someone needs to resurrect the body, and someone needs to accomplish the transfer of John's soul from his wolf back into his resurrected body. It's possible this will happen automatically when the body is resurrected, but it might not. The main part of my theory that @ravenous reader was talking about is the idea that skinchangers make for better zombies because of the animal / soul jar thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 1 hour ago, LmL said: No, I don't believe is is contrary at all. When a skin-changer dies, his soul goes into his animal to begin what is called Second Life. This is different from what happens to the soul of anyone else when they die. Beric was resurrected right after he died, and yet he lost a lot of himself in the process - and from this we can conclude that the soul of non-skinchangers suffers some degree of immediate dissolution upon death. From this I have concluded that it is was the fire itself used in the resurrection process which degraded the soul. That's why the weirwoods/greenseers fear the fires; because it compromises, truncates, and finally obliterates their memories. Cgrav has written a very nice post about this, which I'll provide you later if I can find it. Melisandre also talks about the fire 'scouring' her, with the implication that the reason she can't remember much about her background beyond fleeting fragments of 'Melony' etc. is the fire which consumes the soul. As Beric rather bitterly highlights here: Quote A Storm of Swords - Arya VII It was a jest, Arya knew, but Thoros did not laugh. He put a hand on Lord Beric's shoulder. "Best not to dwell on it." "Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?" ... A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII "King Robert was fond of me, though. The first time I rode into a mêlée with a flaming sword, Kevan Lannister's horse reared and threw him and His Grace laughed so hard I thought he might rupture." The red priest smiled at the memory. "It was no way to treat a blade, though, your master had the right of that too." "Fire consumes." Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. "It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing." "Beric. Sweet friend." The priest touched the lightning lord on the forearm. "What are you saying?" “Nothing I have not said before. Six times, Thoros? Six times is too many.” He turned away abruptly. Another thing we may conclude is that fire resurrection may precipitate depression and despondency, since life loses its lustre without memories and relationships -- the roots -- established over a lifetime. What this means for Jon is that his soul has to be placed on ice in the freezer soul jar of the tree/wolf which preserves memories -- essentially his soul, i.e. the fire component, representing the heart of the tree, the ice component, as I've been saying. Meantime, the fire is free to scour up the body to its heart's content -- note that in the Beric quote the fire enters the body coming up into his mouth, hence the aftertaste of ashes and fire -- so in that context Jon's dead body is the ice component and the resurrecting fire its heart, until it can be replaced with Jon's own spirit. Quote My theory is that if there is a way to get a skin-changer soul out of the animal (which is theoretical, because we have not seen that happen yet) after he's begun second life but BEFORE he has merged into the animal spirit, the soul might not be as degraded as that of Beric or lady Catelyn. That is the aninal as soul jar idea. It's simply a way of describing a skinchanger beginning second life in their animal. I think it means Ghost has to die in order to drive Jon out. Quote Jon's soul should be going into Ghost as he is dying at end of ADWD - and really, this is made abundantly clear by foreshadowing and symbolism, including the name of the wolf being "Ghost" - so if there is any chance of seeing Jon resurrected, we ARE going to have to see Jon's spirit leave Ghost's and return to his body somehow. I don't think anyone believes he will be stuck in Ghost for the rest of the story. And he is most definitely dead. My theory is that if we can get John out of the wolf and back into his resurrected body in a certain amount of time, we'll get a better zombie that we did with Beric, precisely because Jon is a skin-changer. This also makes sense from a narrative point of view, as I don't think Martin is going to give us Jon pov's where he's only half there and can't remember his previous life and whatnot, like Beric.But not needing to sleep or eat or seek warmth - now those would be useful attributes to have if one needs to journey into the cold dead lands.That's what we see with Coldhands - as a conscious wight, he is ideally suited to range the North in perpetuity. Yes, existing without burning means immortality. Even suns die. Quote As to Varamyr, he's only showing us one part of the proposed process - he dies, and then goes into his wolf. Jon will do the same thing. What we need then, is for someone to come along and resurrect Jon's body, and then we'll need somebody to help facilitate the transfer of the soul back into the resurrected body. Melisandre can deal with the body -- via fire; Bran will take care of his soul -- via ice. Bran is the psychopomp figure who 'bridges the distance' between the world of life and death, earth and space. He will lead him back to where he belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: Someone, quite a ways back in heresy, made a good case for the Wall itself being a form of glacier, although I forget the details. Personally, I'm sticking with it being a magical construct, an evil thing made of blood as Ygritte put it. Its been suggested a number of times in these pages that it wasn't raised up by physical means, but absorbs Winter itself, protecting the realms of men from the icy blast and perhaps, with a nod to Ygritte we might take that further and if Winter is reckoned to be cold, black and malevolent then there must indeed be a lot of malevolence stored up within the Wall, which one day might burst forth as the Long Night. I said some time ago that the Wall wasn't necessarily constructed initially; so much as applying magic to an existing glacier; containing and absorbing the cold. The Night's Watch may have added to it's height but the Wall grows on it's own as evidenced by the catapults sunk into the ice at the top of the Wall and the recurrence of freezing rain or black ice. This is a pretty good description of the Wall as seen by Jon: Quote A Storm of Swords - Jon IV The Wall was often said to stand seven hundred feet high, but Jarl had found a place where it was both higher and lower. Before them, the ice rose sheer from out of the trees like some immense cliff, crowned by wind-carved battlements that loomed at least eight hundred feet high, perhaps nine hundred in spots. But that was deceptive, Jon realized as they drew closer. Brandon the Builder had laid his huge foundation blocks along the heights wherever feasible, and hereabouts the hills rose wild and rugged. He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. It was true. Sweeping in over one huge humped hill, the ice dipped down into a valley, climbed the knife edge of a long granite ridgeline for a league or more, ran along a jagged crest, dipped again into a valley deeper still, and then rose higher and higher, leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see, into the mountainous west. Jarl had chosen to assault the stretch of ice along the ridge. Here, though the top of the Wall loomed eight hundred feet above the forest floor, a good third of that height was earth and stone rather than ice; the slope was too steep for their horses, almost as difficult a scramble as the Fist of the First Men, but still vastly easier to ascend than the sheer vertical face of the Wall itself. And the ridge was densely wooded as well, offering easy concealment. Once brothers in black had gone out every day with axes to cut back the encroaching trees, but those days were long past, and here the forest grew right up to the ice. Given the topography; it seems unlikely to me that the Wall was built by men using entirely conventional means. Bran the Builder bridged the mountain tops with blocks of ice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 24 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: From this I have concluded that it is was the fire itself used in the resurrection process which degraded the soul. That's why the weirwoods/greenseers fear the fires; because it compromises, truncates, and finally obliterates their memories. Cgrav has written a very nice post about this, which I'll provide you later if I can find it. Melisandre also talks about the fire 'scouring' her, with the implication that the reason she can't remember much about her background beyond fleeting fragments of 'Melony' etc. is the fire which consumes the soul. As Beric rather bitterly highlights here: Another thing we may conclude is that fire resurrection may precipitate depression and despondency, since life loses its lustre without memories and relationships -- the roots -- established over a lifetime. Good points here... so in terms of fire consuming. The way that you can prevent fire from consuming - consuming itself as well as everything else - is to freeze it. That is why obsidian is superior to raw fire - ice has been used to temper fire, to fix it in place. I keep saying that Jon and the King of Winter are epitomized by this frozen fire / black ice symbol, and this is what I mean. Resurrected Jon will be frozen fire, probably in multiple senses. Whatever fire magic he intakes or uses should be tempered by ice and frozen. Compare the visions in the flames - fleeting, hard to decipher, etc - to the vision provided by frozen fire. Dragonglass can be used in a highly controlled fashion. It's much more stable. I threw that comparison out offhandedly in the Asshai episode I did with History of Westeros, but the more I think about it the more I think it's the right idea. I mean it's just more ice & fire yin yang stuff, really. So getting back to Jon, his blood heritage is ice and fire, and this is important precisely because both lineages carry magic with them. I suspect both abilities will play a role in his resurrection. We've talked all about his skinchanger abilities and why they might enable him to be a better zombie than we have seen so far, but consider the Targ part. Could his dragon blood enable him to handle a fire resurrection better than Beric? It's entirely possible. He might do something similar to Dany's 'miraculous' fire transformation. After all, his resurrection should also be a reenactment of the AA reborn prophecy, at least in symbolic terms. 24 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: What this means for Jon is that his soul has to be placed on ice in the freezer soul jar of the tree/wolf which preserves memories -- essentially his soul, i.e. the fire component, representing the heart of the tree, the ice component, as I've been saying. Meantime, the fire is free to scour up the body to its heart's content -- note that in the Beric quote the fire enters the body coming up into his mouth, hence the aftertaste of ashes and fire -- so in that context Jon's dead body is the ice component and the resurrecting fire its heart, until it can be replaced with Jon's own spirit. I think it means Ghost has to die in order to drive Jon out. Yes, existing without burning means immortality. Even suns die. Melisandre can deal with the body -- via fire; Bran will take care of his soul -- via ice. Bran is the psychopomp figure who 'bridges the distance' between the world of life and death, earth and space. He will lead him back to where he belongs. Yes, this last bit makes a lot sense to me. It makes me wonder about Coldhands... there is so much potential for burning. His coal black hands, hard as black stone... they'd look good covering flames, is all I am saying. Related ice / fire question, but regarding swords. Jon is armored in black ice, with his sword burning red. Jon's Longclaw has a pale stone pommel and a black steel blade. The V steel sword Nightfall has a moonstone (a milky bluish white stone) pommel and a V steel blade. Could it be that Jon's body will actually by cold, like CH, but somehow he'll be able to wield fire? Or said another way, does the white stone pommel and moonstone pommel imply that you need ice as a hilt for the fiery sword without a hilt? Something like that? I also think of Jon's dream of cutting off the heads of Monster and Aemon Battleborn and swapping them, sewing them back on the wrong bodies. That could easily be a sword metaphor. We have all the broken sword stuff, and hints about reforging a sword... did we reforge a sword that was a mix of pale stone and dark? Something like that? There are many ways to mix elements in a sword.. just spinning the wheels here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 This is the post by @cgrav I was referring to: On 10/13/2016 at 1:55 PM, cgrav said: I'm saying/speculating that the burning affects the tree (and its powers) but does not destroy it, as it's just the above-ground portion of the network. The intact tree of course can interact in very rudimentary fashion with its present environment, but the burned or cut off tree can only interact with very close, direct contact (maybe even depending on the person's receptivity, as indicated by Jaime's drinking dreamwine and physical and emotional vulnerability). As for Whitetree, I think it's in line with the many intersections of weirwoods and fire. The trees are described as looking as if they are on fire, with the red leaves and ashen bark. The Ghost of High Heart obviously has a connection to the weirwoods, but was also at Summerhall, and then openly acknowledges R'hllor's powers to Thoros. Then there's the myth of the Grey King who taunted the Storm God until he sent lightning to set fire to a weirwood. And of course Bloodraven, a fiery dragon enthroned by Weirwood. I think the tree at Whitetree is an early indication that the Weirwoods and flames are two sides of the same symbolic coin. The confirmation comes in Dance when Mel makes the wildlings throw weirwood sticks into the fire, showing that one symbol is literally turning into the other as the wood becomes flame. If we assume the symbolism of fire as knowledge of the gods (as proposed by LmL and in real life mythologies), and combine that with the Norse myth of Yggdrasil/Tree of Knowledge trope, then it makes a lot of sense to find this kind of religious creole in Ice and Fire. Flame and wood don't seem to get along, but wood is what turns to fire, and therefore both represent an aspect divine knowledge. It also then makes sense that burning a weirwood could make it hard or to see through - but impossible? In Norse mythology, Yggdrasil exists outside of time, and Odin is schlepped up and down its trunk gathering knowledge through time and space, just like Martin's Odinic greenseers. Weirwoods then are knowledge without time or action. In other words, Wisdom. Fire, conversely, has no length to be traveled, meaning it that it's knowledge exists only temporarily in the present. Fire leaves only consequences in the future, representing divine action or passion (hence why greenseers see the past and R'hllorists see the future). This synthes is the theme of Jon Snow: both wisdom and passion. So if we accept all that, then what happens if a person tries to look through a burned weirwood - that is, one that contains both symbols of past/passivity and action/future? Well, it could be that, like Varamyr driven mad by his eagle's fire, a greenseer is simply overwhelmed by the sheer amount of divine knowledge in a burned/burning weirwood. well, that escalated quickly, but the question really gets at the substance of these two seemingly competing symbols, and the symbolism stays consistent through analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 9 hours ago, PrettyPig said: I would like to hear more about this as well. I have a fledgling theory that there is indeed a "dragon" beneath Winterfell, just not one in the reptilian sense. Still working out the details, but IMO George has taken the idea of Large Igneous Provinces (supervolcanoes, basically) in the real-world north - think Iceland or Siberia - and stirred in some magic to create the Westeros North that we see today. I realize that the more widespread view is to 'look to the skies' re: terraforming cataclysmic events, and that may indeed be true, but my findings point to the real threat being underground. (Fwiw, in our world comets have notably been viewed as harbingers of doom and mass destruction, not necessarily the agent of destruction. This is consistent with the wildling viewpoint of the comet in ASOIAF.) I think this ties into underground tunnel systems, hot springs, thermal pools, non-level structures, excess basalt, all the oddities of Winterfell itself - plus the mythology of the North, the Wall (it being built with blood), the Fist, Hardhome, etc. Even Melisandre's magic that grows oddly stronger at the Wall makes sense if viewed in this capacity - R'hllor is a fire god, and, I suspect, actually a vulcan god...so it stands to reason that Mel grows stronger the closer she gets to a "source" of her magic, regardless of where it is. Throw in the historical recounts of the Long Night - which sounds remarkably like a mini ice age, an event that could certainly be result of a large eruption - and the emergence of the Others during this cold and dark time, plus the inconsistencies with the date re: the Wall being built and founding of Winterfell, and I think it can all be tied into a neat package. With magic, of course. Anyway, I realize this will not be a popular view and will most likely be dismissed entirely, but would like to revisit those discussions on What Lies Beneath. I'm really glad you posted this response as I had forgotten about the notion of the source of the heated water surging through the pipes of Winterfell. You are correct on the "non-reptilian dragon" (a.k.a. submarine volcano's). So would it be your position that we are due for a repeat of the 14 Flames of Valyria, except in this repeat performance we will see a single eruption from the depths of Winterfell? That might stop a charging army of White Walkers, maybe even incinerate a dragon, or two flying over the blast zone. This might fall in line with @Feather Crystal time inversion theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 2 hours ago, LynnS said: He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west So -- it's a sword without a hilt, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 2 hours ago, LmL said: Good points here... so in terms of fire consuming. The way that you can prevent fire from consuming - consuming itself as well as everything else - is to freeze it. Yes, that's why I've been saying that ice is fire in suspended animation. Quote That is why obsidian is superior to raw fire - ice has been used to temper fire, to fix it in place. I keep saying that Jon and the King of Winter are epitomized by this frozen fire / black ice symbol, and this is what I mean. Resurrected Jon will be frozen fire, probably in multiple senses. Whatever fire magic he intakes or uses should be tempered by ice and frozen. Compare the visions in the flames - fleeting, hard to decipher, etc - to the vision provided by frozen fire. Dragonglass can be used in a highly controlled fashion. It's much more stable. I threw that comparison out offhandedly in the Asshai episode I did with History of Westeros, but the more I think about it the more I think it's the right idea. I mean it's just more ice & fire yin yang stuff, really. So getting back to Jon, his blood heritage is ice and fire, and this is important precisely because both lineages carry magic with them. I suspect both abilities will play a role in his resurrection. We've talked all about his skinchanger abilities and why they might enable him to be a better zombie than we have seen so far, but consider the Targ part. Could his dragon blood enable him to handle a fire resurrection better than Beric? It's entirely possible. He might do something similar to Dany's 'miraculous' fire transformation. After all, his resurrection should also be a reenactment of the AA reborn prophecy, at least in symbolic terms. Yes, Dany was ever the chipper cheerleader, regardless of the fire...(I really don't like that character, sorry...). Quote Yes, this last bit makes a lot sense to me. It makes me wonder about Coldhands... there is so much potential for burning. His coal black hands, hard as black stone... they'd look good covering flames, is all I am saying. You should direct music videos -- with your sense of what 'looks good'.... the obsidian armor, etc. Quote Related ice / fire question, but regarding swords. Jon is armored in black ice, with his sword burning red. Jon's Longclaw has a pale stone pommel and a black steel blade. The V steel sword Nightfall has a moonstone (a milky bluish white stone) pommel and a V steel blade. Could it be that Jon's body will actually by cold, like CH, but somehow he'll be able to wield fire? Or said another way, does the white stone pommel and moonstone pommel imply that you need ice as a hilt for the fiery sword without a hilt? Something like that? My goodness, you're sounding as incoherent as me..! Seriously, though, if his fire soul is preserved in the heart of the weirwood, then yes indeed he should be able to wield fire! I think Jon represents a Valyrian steel blade with a ruby pommel...His heart must be rubies, not moonstones... Quote I also think of Jon's dream of cutting off the heads of Monster and Aemon Battleborn and swapping them, sewing them back on the wrong bodies. That could easily be a sword metaphor. We have all the broken sword stuff, and hints about reforging a sword... did we reforge a sword that was a mix of pale stone and dark? Something like that? There are many ways to mix elements in a sword.. just spinning the wheels here. You know, you're quite lazy dear @LmL...you never bother providing quotes for anything...Please jog my memory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 42 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: So -- it's a sword without a hilt, isn't it? Or it represents both a serpent and a sword since I think the Wall is both connected to Winterfell in it's aspect of the sword and the House of Undying by the serpent aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 36 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said: So would it be your position that we are due for a repeat of the 14 Flames of Valyria, except in this repeat performance we will see a single eruption from the depths of Winterfell? If I think about it in terms of my Jellystone (did I just date myself with that?) neighbor, yes, Westeros/Planetos is probably due...or overdue. That goes in line with repeated cycles, the comet's passing over, the wheel of time rolling 'round. However - and this is a very early-stage idea - I believe that Winterfell and its caretakers the Starks have somehow been responsible for keeping that at bay. When you work through the weird sequencing of the chapters, it becomes apparent that the comet - remember, most notably a harbinger of doom, not the doom itself - first appears right around the time of Ned's death...everyone focuses on Dany and the dragons, of course, but IMO there's the more-than-coincidence timing with the death of the Stark in Winterfell too. Robb goes to play war and die, Jon is at the Wall, Bran becomes the Stark in Winterfell but we know what happens after that. Now, the guardianship is gone. Whatever role they played, bolstered by the old magics and/or the CotF, it was placed in jeopardy when Ned's head and neck parted company. Bran is the last hope. Also, I believe Ned had an inkling that something ugly was coming down the pipe (the old powers were awakening). Even though the Starks of late have forgotten what "Winter is Coming" truly means, or classified it as mere legend and dismissed the importance of it, we see that forebeding when they encounter the dead direwolf, the repeated solemnity of the house words, the reluctance to leave Winterfell to be Hand, etc. In AGOT Chapter 2, Ned tells Catelyn in what seems to be an innocuous throwaway line "The day will come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-Beyond-the-Wall for good and all" - seems like nothing on the face of it, just the Warden of the North putting pesky Mance Rayder in his place, until you look at it in the context of the tale of the Night's King: the King of Winter joins forces - or deals with - Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall to defeat the Night's King and free the Night's Watch from bondage. For good and all. Furthermore, Joramun blew the Horn of Winter - the one that Mance was digging for - and woke "giants from the earth". What giant from the earth could defeat ice sorcery? Fire. If Winterfell and the Wall are indeed hotspots and they have a 'ward' that can be controlled... Anyway, getting a bit deep here, but yes, in a nutshell I agree that something is bubbling under Winterfell, and its time has come to say hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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