Men's rights/issues thread- Grab 'em right by the willy

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 minutes ago, Mikael said:

Outside of rap songs, I've never even heard it discussed. Maybe societies where marriage is seen as some kind of achievement there could be an incentive, but it still seems like a very stupid idea. 

I'm mostly convinced it happened to me, although it didn't cross my mind at the time. I've seen it since happen a number of times.

Sure it's a certain type of person who would do this, who don't represent an entire gender. But the common denominator was that they were in a shaky relationship that they were trying to cling onto, were of a certain age where they wanted kids very soon and all their friends were having children. Then 'whoops' , and 'I guess we'll have to get married now'.

Cue inevitable divorce 2 years down the line.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I also agree with this. However that doesn't mean that its morally fine for a woman to 'forget' to take contraception as a way to get pregnant, without consulting the guy. The risk is obviously there, but that doesn't make her actions correct.

Then... wear a condom.  Otherwise accept that sex makes babies.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

No, that's not what Jo supposedly meant. The corresponding German term refers to cases where the husband of the mother is not the biological father of her child, often unknowingly so. Some court rulings over here have posited that these men must pay child support for chilren born during their marriage that aren't biologically theirs, even after a paternity test. It seems to be this what Jo is opposed to (and I admit that ruling seems dubious to me, too)

That is true in the US too.  Children born during a marriage are legally presumed to be the product of the marriage.  

[Isalie]

Ok, the thing that it actually referred to made more sense. In that kind of case, I don't think the non-father should have any responsibility. That said, even if it turned out that my children were fathered by someone else, I still wouldn't want to lose them, so it's not entirely black and white.

I must say that it seems entirely crazy to try and bind someone down with a child in a society where you can do fine on your own, and if you are a woman, even have a child on your own. That said, there's lots of crazy to go around..

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Then... wear a condom.  Otherwise accept that sex makes babies.

So its totally fine for a woman to do that?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

So its totally fine for a woman to do that?

Channel,

I didn't say that.  What I said was take responsibility for yourself and accept the consequences if you don't.  If you can prevent the consequence you are just as responsible.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Channel,

I didn't say that.  What I said was take responsibility for yourself and accept the consequences if you don't.  If you can prevent the consequence you are just as responsible.

I understand that. But at the same time if you have a level of trust in a relationship then this shouldn't happen. I personally view it as a pretty heinous crime if done on purpose, essentially trapping a man for the rest of his life. 

[Einheri]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Then... wear a condom.  Otherwise accept that sex makes babies.

IMO you’re on thin ice here, Scot. If a women lies about being on birth control, she is no better than a man who removes the condom during intercourse when the women is not looking, and it’s considered to be a form of rape in some countries.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Einheri said:

IMO you’re on thin ice here, Scot. If a women lies about being on birth control, she is no better than a man who removes the condom during intercourse when the women is not looking, and it’s considered to be a form of rape in some countries.

 

I disagree.  Both parties accept the risk of pregnancy when they engage in sexual activity.  If a man chooses to have sex without a condom he is aware that pregnancy is a possibility.  He is abrogating control and accepting he may get the woman with whom he is having sex, pregnant.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, Einheri said:

IMO you’re on thin ice here, Scot. If a women lies about being on birth control, she is no better than a man who removes the condom during intercourse when the women is not looking, and it’s considered to be a form of rape in some countries.

 

Also a good point

[mormont]

Wow, this thread took a turn.

Can we stick to men's issues, and complaining about dishonest women? There's a difference. And if you do insist that 'cuckoo pregnancies' are a men's issue, at least show us some evidence first. Otherwise we're just sitting around gassing about stuff that we think might be a thing.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, mormont said:

Wow, this thread took a turn.

Can we stick to men's issues, and complaining about dishonest women? There's a difference. And if you do insist that 'cuckoo pregnancies' are a men's issue, at least show us some evidence first. Otherwise we're just sitting around gassing about stuff that we think might be a thing.

It is a thing.

[Einheri]

23 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I disagree.  Both parties accept the risk of pregnancy when they engage in sexual activity.  If a man chooses to have sex without a condom he is aware that pregnancy is a possibility.  He is abrogating control and accepting he may get the woman with whom he is having sex, pregnant.

There is always a chance that intercourse will result in a pregnancy even if precautions are taken, and it’s still a possibility that it will happen even if you wear a condom, but this is very different from outright lying about being on birth control or secretly removing the condom, which is a clear breach of the agreement that was made before lovemaking ensued.

[James Arryn]

So, a thread on men's issues consists almost entirely of 2 opposing sides pointing fingers at the other and saying 'it's their fault'. I suppose that's illustrative of something. 

[Theda Baratheon]

For the moat part I'm going to ignore the "traditional morals" and "ideally there would be no abortion) [insert swear words] as although this pertains to the anger of mens rights groups these groups are still mostly focused on hatred of feminism and women and as so are not helpful to anyone.  I honestly totally wish for mens groups so that men can discuss their worries and problems and come up with solutions )and though there have been derails I'm hay this thread exists here) - that is not what mens rights groups do - they take an issue and spend most of the time blaming and hating women for it. Not helpful, not at all. 

 

On another note....

I am in a museum at the moment and there's an excellent world war one exhibition and it makes me so sad to think of all these young men going off to war and those suffering from mental trauma being KILLED for being cowards or coming back home to a society where it was taboo to discuss mental suffering. These poor men.

Here is a good quote or two from the exhibition: "sadly even though it was only 100 years ago, much information has been lost forever because the men and women who returned from the front simply did not or COULD NOT talk about their extraordinary eforts,  experiences and suffering.

Many however came back changed forever from both physical and mental scars at a time when medical remedies were still basic and virtually nothing at all was known about shell shock." 

"Tragically, mental and emotional stress was not then recognised as a genuine and significant illness, so when no physical cause could be found it was often callously treated as cowardice. A total of THREE HUNDRED AND SIX British and Commonwealth soldiers were court martialled and SHOT AS COWARDS; a good number of these were probably suffering from what we now call Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" 

Now @Channel4s-JonSnow that last quote is particularly relevent to your "bawling their eyes to a therapist" point and why so many people were upset with it. 

Discussion emotional trauma is still socially taboo for a lot of men; and this can ONLY HURT men and NOT help them. 

I understand you believe that there is a backlash against traditionally masculine traits and I can understand WHY you would believe that though I don't think you're necessarily correct as I don't think that is the case at all. 

But it is a fact of life that men suffer from mental health problems and trauma and I wish it were more acceptable for them to discuss their problems.

My friend wants to be a counsellor and it's interesting that the clients for counselling are OVERWHELMINGLY white middle class women. Men just don't seek help and that is why there is such a huge number in male suicides. 

Men and women attempt suicide around the same amount but women's attempts and "cries for help" are treated as more valid (though mental health stigma towards ANYONE and EVERYONE is still extremely prevalent) but men don't seek help, they bottle up emotions and hurt themselves and sometimes hurt others.  

Sorry I just was so moved by this exhibition and it really upset me to think of these men being killed and shunned for the emotional and mental shock of war after they had already risked their lives. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

30 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

It is a thing.

Birth control failure is also very DEFINITELY a thing.

@Theda Baratheon thinking about the First World War is always tragic.  And the ethos remains.  There is an old story called The Four Feathers that has been made into a movie like 4 or five times, including recently, that epitomizes the problem IMO.

[baxus]

24 minutes ago, Einheri said:

There is always a chance that intercourse will result in a pregnancy even if precautions are taken, and it’s still a possibility that it will happen even if you wear a condom, but this is very different from outright lying about being on birth control or secretly removing the condom, which is a clear breach of the agreement that was made before lovemaking ensued.

I'd be interested in hearing how you'd prove a woman got pregnant on purpose and it wasn't a matter of malfunctioning contraceptives. Confession would be the only way I can think of.

P. S. Getting pregnant is not as easy as having unprotected sex once. If it was, people would use more than one kind of contraceptives, just to be on the safe side.

[Einheri]

2 minutes ago, baxus said:

I'd be interested in hearing how you'd prove a woman got pregnant on purpose and it wasn't a matter of malfunctioning contraceptives. Confession would be the only way I can think of.

P. S. Getting pregnant is not as easy as having unprotected sex once. If it was, people would use more than one kind of contraceptives, just to be on the safe side.

Okay, but what does that have to do with the point I was making?

[James Arryn]

4 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Birth control failure is also very DEFINITELY a thing.

@Theda Baratheon thinking about the First World War is always tragic.  And the ethos remains.  There is an old story called The Four Feathers that has been made into a movie like 4 or five times, including recently, that epitomizes the problem IMO.

The White Feather campaign is a tragic one, and has all kinds of sad connections to gender relations/'men's issues'. I've never been able to understand why so many of the volunteers were feminists/suffragettes. I just don't see the connection. 

[Isalie]

I'd still be interested in hearing what kind of individualisation people think would help boys in school. Personally, I think that the opposite is true, kids need to fall in line and do what's asked of them more, not less. In my experience, boys' problems aren't that they are "rowdy", it's that they don't value education.