Preston Jacobs and the Purple Wedding

[Macgregor of the North]

@John Suburbs

Quote

The only mention we have of the strangler being dissolved in wine is from Cressen, but this in no way suggests that it can be dissolved in nothing but wine. Indeed, the fact that "the pie is dry, needs washing down," is an indication that the crystal is absorbing the moisture in the pie, and the fact that the wine is "deep purple" at the end of the scene suggests that Joffrey barfed up the not-fully dissolved crystal into the chalice. But if you still insist that wine is necessary to dissolved the crystal, read the scene: Joffrey eats pie, coughs slightly, drinks wine, and then, only then, does he start choking -- in virtually the exact timeframe as Cressen.

I'll reply to this for now.

Everything we know about the strangler is that it is a dissolving crystal poison that is placed in liquid. Absolutely any other way to use it, such as placing it in food, is made up by people reading the books. Nobody in the story has ever mentioned the strangler as something that is used in food. 

And "the fact" you state is wrong I'm afraid. The wine is purple way before the end. Plus there is absolutely no mention of barfed up pie chunks or crust or anything at all like that in the chalice when the wine is left to spill at the end. Only a half inch of the purple wine.

"But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor."

Joffrey had picked up the chalice and drank the wine that was sitting on the table where he had left it, with the strangler in it, and drank deep while the then purple wine dribbled down his chin. Then literally seconds later, he jams Tyrions pie into his mouth. You seem to have him eating the pie first, which isn't so. You read the scene again, I've read it many times 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII 

"No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine."

The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." 

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . ." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

The Strangler had went to work from the wine, stopping the pie going down his throat, it appears he's choking on the pie of course. The Strangler would have killed him anyway but it looked like choking on pie for all the world to see. Brilliant, although not for Tyrion. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

9 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Except that Joffrey didn't choke to death. He was poisoned. The symptoms of that poison mimicked choking. 

This was testified to at Tyrion's trial as well. The two maesters who did the autopsy specifically said he didn't choke, it was poison. As did Pycelle.

Way to miss the point, fwend. It's supposed to look like he choked, and you can't choke on liquid, therefore if anybody notices that he had no food in his mouth when he choked, the jig is up.

52 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Except that doesn't make sense either. That means Olenna took the poison from the hairnet, and handed it to some lowly food servant with the intention of murdering a member of the Royal family, in this instance its Tyrion.

Well, you'll recall that I think it makes more sense for the server to have the poison in his pocket, and for Olenna not to be involved at all. (If Tyrion's the target and/or the pie was poisoned, that is.)

52 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

They have to take into account the serving man may botch it, or get cold feet and run squealing that he was forced into it, or if seen he may have implicated the Tyrell's. That's far too much trust in a lowly serving man that we know we're picked by Cersei. She picked all the serving people.

She also picked her own sellswords in ACOK, but of course, they weren't really her sellswords. I should think it's within Littlefinger's capability to place a trusted agent in the kitchen staff. Although now that I think about it, that agent has to make sure he's the one giving Tyrion his pie. Not impossible, but another obstacle on the path to success.

52 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Add this also, the Strangler and everything that's known about it shows that it is  a dissolving crystal weapon, meant for dissolving in liquid drinks. Not once has it ever been mentioned as a poison for food stuffs. Never.

Well, I do think that there must logically be a liquid form of the Strangler, and to me it makes more sense for the serving man to discreetly apply a few drops thereof to Tyrion's pie or lemon cream, if Tyrion's the target and if the pie the vehicle. But I concede that what's perfectly logical to me might not be to GRRM, and the crystal-in-liquid is what he's set up previously. In which case, I return to "How can one choke on a liquid?" Bear in mind Cressen was trying to kill himself as well as Melisandre, so he didn't mind if it didn't look like an accident. (Although: Stannis knows exactly what happened there, right?)

8 hours ago, Jasta11 said:

Different concentrations/quantities? Old man vs young man? The wine/food diluted some of the poison? GRRM isn't an expert on poisons and let this detail slip? There's several explanations for this.

It can also be hard to estimate exact timeframes in a book, or draw any conclusions from this fact alone.

Yes, yes, yes! In fact, GRRM is deliberately vague on timeframes all the time, just so he gives himself wiggle room with regard to the mechanics of the plot.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@John Suburbs

I think I'll reply to your other comments also while I'm on the subject, why not. 

Quote

Lady Olenna did it. She is standing in the immediate vicinity just before the cutting, and the pie is served within seconds of the doves being released, so they have to be right there too -- either on a table or in the hands of a servant. Simply wait for the servant to glance up at the pigeons and, blink of an eye, in goes the poison.

Lady Olenna is on the dais by all accounts is she not? Where all the other important guests such as Tyrion and Sansa are.  The pie is below the dais. Could you point out where it states that Olenna hobbled down off the dais to be right where they were cutting pie slices. 

"King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. "Widow's Wail was not meant for slicing pies."

An old lady who needs a cane to walk isn't going to walk down off the dais and barge in past King and Queen and all the serving people to place a poisoned crystal, that history and knowledge shows that it is placed in drinks, into a slice of food that she actually has no idea is destined for Tyrion (it could be anybody's pie slice) without being noticed is she?. Even of if she knows it's going to be Tyrions slice this means you have her come down from the dais, right in among the King, Queen, cutters and servers and place something in the pie slice on the plate that ends up in front of Tyrion.  

Theres absolutelt zero in the text to show she done this. Nothing. Unless you are suggesting that when the serving man came up on the dais and laid it before Tyrion, she zoomed over and placed it in the pie slice then? Is this what you mean?.

I'll reply to the last part soon.

[Macgregor of the North]

@40 Thousand Skeletons

Sorry I don't get the lemon cream angle, it's not for me, if you poison the lemon cream then don't you kill everybody that has lemon cream lol?. And you have too much middle men and cronies for me. 

I don't really see any holes in the wine being poisoned, it being purple in colour is better evidence than any foodstuff being the poisoned device. There's no similar evidence concerning foodstuffs. 

[Knight Of Winter]

I won't try to challenge the official "LF+Tyrells killed Joffrey" theory - the evidence is just too overwhelming - but I think there are indeed few stupid holes in their plan, namely from the Tyrell side.

1) The Tyrells want to kill Joffrey - that's fine and logical - why why exactly do they need LF to achieve it? LF's whole contribution to their plan was that he sent poisonous hairnet via Dontos and Sansa. Couldn't Olenna just ask her maester for the poison? Or buy it on the black market? Or rob maester's lodgings? Why involve LF in whole poison-getting scheme where there are hundreds of simpler ways to achieve it.

2) Related to the issue above - what if Sansa decides she doesn't like the hairnet and doesn't wear it at the wedding? What if she thinks that Dontos' vague "this hairnet is vengeance and justice" speeches are good enough of a reason to wear it? Entire plan is in shambles.

3) If anyone suspects poisoning, Sansa will be the obvious culprit with her poisonous hairnet. I understand that is exactly what LF would want (he wants to have something to blackmail her), but why would Tyrells wish for that? Sansa is extremely important pawn in their plans - whey mean for her to marry Wyllas and give them North - so why would they risk implicating her in regicide where there are hundreds of other possible fall-guys? The ones who aren't crucial to their plans.

 

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons

Sorry I don't get the lemon cream angle, it's not for me, if you poison the lemon cream then don't you kill everybody that has lemon cream lol?. And you have too much middle men and cronies for me. 

I don't really see any holes in the wine being poisoned, it being purple in colour is better evidence than any foodstuff being the poisoned device. There's no similar evidence concerning foodstuffs. 

I think people tend to speculate that the lemon cream covered the crystal and it melted into the pie, not the fact that the lemon cream was poisoned.

[Philokles]

2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Way to miss the point, fwend. It's supposed to look like he choked, and you can't choke on liquid, therefore if anybody notices that he had no food in his mouth when he choked, the jig is up.

It doesn't matter. They have Tyrion/Sansa as fall-guys. All the Tyrells need is for it to look like someone made an effort to make it seem an accident, not for that story to be believed.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I think people tend to speculate that the lemon cream covered the crystal and it melted into the pie, not the fact that the lemon cream was poisoned.

40 thousand skeletons was implying that the crystal was mixed in with lemon cream, poisoning the lemon cream. 

This is silly as it goes down two ways. The whole batch of lemon cream is poisoned, potentially killing all who eat it. Ouch. 

The serving man, on the spot decides to place the crystal into the amount he has on the spoon and mix it with that portion of lemon cream. No chance, too risky and time consuming and he's being watched. 

Or the way you mention, the crystal is placed on the pie and the lemon cream was placed on top of it? And it all melted into the pie? Is this what you mean?.

That would be impossible to do if we read the scene.

ASOS TYRION VIII:

"A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall."

The pie is placed in front of Tyrion with no cream at first, wouldn't he notice a purple amethyst crystal thing on his pie? I'm just not sure about this whole lemon cream angle at all. Can't get on board with it.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@John Suburbs

Ive had a think and we're probably better doing it this way, could you perhaps lay out exactly what you think happened? That will maybe make discussing it easier. 

I presume that what you think is that:

LF and Olenna hatched a plan to kill Tyrion. The Strangler became the weapon of choice and was to be used at the feast, smuggled in by Sansa on a hairnet that Olenna was to remove a crystal from and then make her way over to Tyrions slice of pie and place the crystal in the tip of the pie as her and LF were absolutely sure that he would eat the tip of his wedding pie slice?. 

Is that the gist of what you and Preston what's his name are saying?. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Illyrio Mo'Parties

Quote

Well, I do think that there must logically be a liquid form of the Strangler, and to me it makes more sense for the serving man to discreetly apply a few drops thereof to Tyrion's pie or lemon cream, if Tyrion's the target and if the pie the vehicle.

It seems there is no liquid form of the Strangler and it is always crystallised as per Cressen, Infact it must be allowed to crystallise. To assume there are other forms seems a little bit like making things up to suit a certain theory if I'm honest. I'm not saying your spearheading the theory with these made up ideas, just pointing it out. Also, it's known that the poison was set up earlier in the books for us so we know this is the Strangler. The poison is described as a crystal that dissolves when placed in a persons drink. Never once is it mentioned in conjunction with food poisoning. Anybody acquiring this killer crystal would have the intent of killing a person in this fashion (placing it in their drink), as per what is known of the poison, no question. The pie thing I think is another instance of things being made up to suit a theory. But that's just my opinion.

Here's Cressen on the matter:

A Clash of Kings - Prologue 

The chain around his throat felt very heavy. He touched one of the crystals lightly with the tip of his little finger. Such a small thing to hold the power of life and death. It was made from a certain plant that grew only on the islands of the Jade Sea, half a world away. The leaves had to be aged, and soaked in a wash of limes and sugar water and certain rare spices from the Summer Isles. Afterward they could be discarded, but the potion must be thickened with ash and allowed to crystallize. The process was slow and difficult, the necessaries costly and hard to acquire. The alchemists of Lys knew the way of it, though, and the Faceless Men of Braavos . . . and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel. All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill.

Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food. 

[Red Man Racey]

11 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

4. Either this crony was the pie server, or he was just a middle man to hand off the crystal to the pie server, another LF crony. Either way, the pie server likely hid the poison in the lemon cream that he covered the pie with, possibly even taking the time to thoroughly mix the poison crystal into that particular spoonful of lemon cream. Lemon cream may not be wine, but it is creamy, and it may be possible to easily mix the poison into it. Quote from ASOS:

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream.

It would probably be difficult to poison the correct slice of pie ahead of time, or put a single crystal in the first bite of the pie or something along those lines, but I do think it would be reasonable to poison the lemon cream.

What color is lemon cream supposed to be? If Tyrion gets a piece of pie that very conspicuously looks drastically different than everyone else's then maybe, just maybe, he would notice this small detail. Lemon cream should be a pale yellow (unless I'm missing something), not purple.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

5 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

It doesn't matter. They have Tyrion/Sansa as fall-guys. All the Tyrells need is for it to look like someone made an effort to make it seem an accident, not for that story to be believed.

@Knight Of Winter has this one covered:

6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

If anyone suspects poisoning, Sansa will be the obvious culprit with her poisonous hairnet. I understand that is exactly what LF would want (he wants to have something to blackmail her), but why would Tyrells wish for that? Sansa is extremely important pawn in their plans - whey mean for her to marry Wyllas and give them North - so why would they risk implicating her in regicide where there are hundreds of other possible fall-guys? The ones who aren't crucial to their plans.

As for the good knight's other points, yes, I agree that relying on Sansa to wear the hairnet is a bit weak, and I agree that the Tyrell's motivations for involving Littlefinger in their regicide are extremely weak. I think that's one of the biggest flaws in the plan, and one that gets glossed over a lot: why on earth would they trust Littlefinger?

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@Macgregor of the North: the pie below the dais is the one with the live birds in it, not the one that people eat. Exactly where that pie comes from is not mentioned in the text.

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@John Suburbs

...could you perhaps lay out exactly what you think happened? That will maybe make discussing it easier. 

I presume that what you think is that:

LF and Olenna hatched a plan to kill Tyrion. The Strangler became the weapon of choice and was to be used at the feast, smuggled in by Sansa on a hairnet that Olenna was to remove a crystal from and then make her way over to Tyrions slice of pie and place the crystal in the tip of the pie as her and LF were absolutely sure that he would eat the tip of his wedding pie slice?. 

Is that the gist of what you and Preston what's his name are saying?. 

John hasn't responded yet, but I've argued this with him so much I can give you his answer, probably quite accurately.

Littlefinger and Olenna meet at Bitterbridge, and Littlefinger is already planning his assassination of Tyrion and kidnapping of Sansa. That's why Sansa has the hairnet as soon as he returns to King's Landing.

Once in King's Landing, the Tyrells try to marry Sansa to Willas, but the plan gets scotched and she's married to Tyrion instead. This means that the Lannisters will control the crown, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, and now the North. It's too much power, especially for the Reach's neighbours on two sides. So Olenna and Littlefinger somehow contact each other, possibly while Littlefinger is supposed to be in the Vale, and agree to kill Tyrion, via the poisoned hairnet that Littlefinger already has in place.

Important detail: the Tyrells supplied all the food and such.

Day of the wedding, Olenna palms the crystal from the hairnet.

At the wedding: John envisions the following set-up.

Below the dais: Joffrey and Margaery cutting the pie, birds flying out, distracting everyone.

On the dais: the various bigwigs eating their food.

Behind the dais: An array of servers ready to go with the pigeon pie, which is already sliced and plated, one plate, one slice, one server per bigwig.

Olenna is therefore able to know which slice will be Tyrion's, and she wanders up and poisons it, tucking the crystal in the thin end of the wedge, under the crust. The heat melts the crystal.

The serving man is too busy watching the birds fly out of the pie below the dais to notice his famous employer standing right next to him sticking her fingers in the pie.

Olenna returns, the pie is served. Tyrion can be expected to eat it, even with Littlefinger's antagonising of him via the dwarves, because "it's ill luck not to".

But Joffrey eats it instead because he's a twat, and dies. Whoops.

ETA: I forgot, then Littlefinger double-crosses them and steals Sansa, who they were hoping to marry to Willas.

 

Preston Jacobs's theory is simpler: the Tyrells weren't involved at all, the serving man is a Littlefinger crony, he uses his triffic sleight of hand to palm the crystal from Sansa's hairnet and stick it in Tyrion's pie before giving it to him. I assume he envisions the server being behind Sansa. Or else he already had the crystal in his pocket.

 

And I will happily concede your point re: the Strangler being always crystallised. I am only trying to follow what logic makes sense to me, and with my admittedly limited knowledge of chemistry, I don't see how a poison that exists in crystal form can't also exist in liquid form.

As a matter of fact, it sort of can: it dissolves in liquid, so why not dissolve it in liquid, bottle that concentrated Strangler solution, and pour that in somebody's food? Technically possible, and it surmounts the difficulties previously outlined with convincing people that somebody choked to death on their wine.

But I concede that that's not what GRRM set up.

[Macgregor of the North]

@John Suburbs

As per this part which you want me to explain. I'll give it a go, sure. 

Quote

Cressen takes a sip of normal-looking wine and drops in seconds; Joffrey takes multiple chugs of wine so thoroughly poisoned that it's purple running down his chin and yet he goes on for nearly half-a-minute. Explain?

I am assuming that you think there is something up with Joffrey being able to drink the wine, and without dropping and dying instantly like Cressen does, then go on to do more things like eat pie and have another drink yes?.

Well check the scene, and forget Cressens scenario for a second, because your own theory depends on it. 

Joff drinks some wine the first time but doesn't appear to be effected like Cressen. Thumbs up to your theory as your logic states that he must have an immediate reaction which sees him begin to die. 

He then jams his hand into Tyrions pie and  eats a piece, claiming its good, then coughs out a bit. Your theory is at its pinnacle here, but for your logic to work, Joffrey needs to start doubling over and dying right now for you to have a leg to stand on with the Cressen argument.

The Cressen argument is gone now because Joffrey actually helps himself to another piece, now why would he do that if his throat is tightening from the Strangler and if we use your Cressen angle he should be dying yes?.

Infact, after helping himself to a second piece, he talks coherent enough to say it's dry and needs washing down with no coughs. Two, yes two helpings of the pie haven't killed him or started to effect him the way it effects Cressen.

Then, Joff takes another swallow of wine and begins to show some real Strangler effects. He stays on his feet still after all this though, and continues to try to talk more, and also manages to raise the chalice (still some strength in the young lad) to drink yet more wine, not having succumbed to the Strangler effects Cressen style even now. He does spew this scoof up of course and doubles over in real distress at this juncture.

My point here is that neither the wine or the pie give Joffrey the effect Cressen had, so if this is one of your biggest pieces of evidence for your case, I'd rethink whether it carries as much weight as you think it does. 

Basically, it can easily be the wine and it just took longer to effect Joffrey than it took to effect Cressen, as it's the exact same with your pie theory in that it takes considerably longer to effect Joffrey than it took to effect Cressen. 

You can not separate the wine and the pie in this fashion I'm afraid. 

Here's the full scene for reference. 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII 

"No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine."

The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." 

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . ." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

Margaery looked at him with concern. "Your Grace?"

"It's, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie." Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. "I, kof, I can't, kof kofkof kof . . ." The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais. 

"He's choking," Queen Margaery gasped.

[SFDanny]

12 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Excellent point. On the other hand, the Tyrells were pretty eager to get their claws into Sansa for themselves. They made a play to get her married off to their heir almost as soon as they arrived in Kings Landing. That plan was only frustrated because Sansa blabbed. But even at Joffrey's wedding, Olenna still invited Sansa to make a visit to Highgarden - what do you make of that? It's doubtful the invitation was motivated by friendship or pity for the poor orphaned heiress.

And Littlefinger has not been particularly shy about holding incriminating information over Sansa's head, either. "Do you want more blood on your pretty hands, sweetling?"

So, yeah, I don't dispute that Sansa would have been a convenient patsy for the Tyrells - if it had been necessary. However, Olenna's invitation to Sansa at Joffrey's wedding indicates to me that "Sansa was the murderer" was not their only plan, just the one they would have pulled the trigger on if they had to.

I don't doubt that Littlefinger and the Tyrells were double-crossing each other in the matter of Sansa. It's pretty unlikely that Littlefinger would have gotten wind of Olenna's marriage plans if Sansa had just kept her mouth shut; he's far too lowly to be in the loop on something like this. And there's no way that Littlefinger would tip his hand that he had plans of his own with regard to Sansa.

I mean, Littlefinger and the Tyrells may have planned a regicide together, but marriage (or abduction) of one of the greatest heiresses in the Kingdoms is far too important a matter to leave to chance! 

I absolutely agree with the idea of contingency plans on the part of the Tyrells. If they can get their hands on Sansa they would love to use her claim to the North. But I read Olenna's offer of visit to Highgarden more as continuing of past actions to use as a cover story ("Why, we just asked the wicked creature to come visit us, not knowing she had murder on her mind all along!") for their attentiveness towards Sansa up to and including at the wedding. If by some miracle Sansa is not charged along with Tyrion in Joffrey's murder, then, of course, they would love to take Sansa to Highgarden. But what are the odds that Sansa would not be condemned along side of her husband in the conduct of the crime? If she is still in King's Landing, then I'd say she is very likely sitting in the dock with Tyrion.

I have to disagree with your doubt about a double cross. What benefit is it for the Tyrells for Littlefinger to smuggle Sansa out of King's Landing and into the Vale? Petyr's plans to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir certainly don't benefit the Tyrells. We have no indications that the Tyrells even know anything about Sansa's disappearance, do we? No, I don't think there is any question this is purely Littlefinger's work and the Tyrells would be mad as hell if they found out what he did. One doesn't have to plan a marriage if the agreed upon plan is that Sansa is executed for her "help" in murdering Joffrey. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

...neither the wine or the pie give Joffrey the effect Cressen had, so if this is one of your biggest pieces of evidence for your case, I'd rethink whether it carries as much weight as you think it does. 

Basically, it can easily be the wine and it just took longer to effect Joffrey than it took to effect Cressen, as it's the exact same with your pie theory in that it takes considerably longer to effect Joffrey than it took to effect Cressen. 

You can not separate the wine and the pie in this fashion I'm afraid.

Boom! headshot

As somebody else mentioned - and as I've said all along - we can't use timescales and science etc to pin these theories down beyond a fraction of a doubt. We just don't have the data.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Boom! headshot

As somebody else mentioned - and as I've said all along - we can't use timescales and science etc to pin these theories down beyond a fraction of a doubt. We just don't have the data.

We are in agreement on this then I assume?

And I'm unsure where there is textual evidence that a pie is being cut on the dais?.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

I have to disagree with your doubt about a double cross. What benefit is it for the Tyrells for Littlefinger to smuggle Sansa out of King's Landing and into the Vale? Petyr's plans to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir certainly don't benefit the Tyrells. We have no indications that the Tyrells even know anything about Sansa's disappearance, do we? No, I don't think there is any question this is purely Littlefinger's work and the Tyrells would be mad as hell if they found out what he did. One doesn't have to plan a marriage if the agreed upon plan is that Sansa is executed for her "help" in murdering Joffrey. 

This reminds me, another flaw in the idea that Littlefinger and the Tyrells worked together: if he double-crossed them, then they know where Sansa is. And even if they don't realise he did so, surely they'd get suspicious, especially if they ever heard he'd suddenly produced a bastard daughter about Sansa's age.

What's to stop them from killing him and kidnapping Sansa then?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

We are in agreement on this then I assume?

And I'm unsure where there is textual evidence that a pie is being cut on the dais?.

On that part, sure.

There is no textual evidence about where the pie was cut or how it was served. John Suburb's contentions regarding that have no basis in the text. To be fair, neither did my various contentions about same in the past.

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

On that part, sure.

There is no textual evidence about where the pie was cut or how it was served. John Suburb's contentions regarding that have no basis in the text. To be fair, neither did my various contentions about same in the past.

Sweet, I was hoping my analysis there would be met with good sense. 

Since there is no textual evidence and the ceremonial pie is cut below the dais, we must assume that other huge edible pie is cut also below the dais, and not lumped up (past the King, Queen and huge pie) on to the dais where the Royal family are sitting. That's silly is it not?. 

So, therefore i believe that if Olenna wanted to poison Tyrions slice of pie she would have to get her bony ass up and shamble down off the dais, cane in hand, to where the other pie is and place poison under the crust of the slice she is absolutely certain is destined for Tyrion, who funnily enough has drunk through the last twenty or so courses and couldn't give a mummers fart about it being ill luck not to eat his little shit of a nephews wedding pie, which is confirmed as he shows as much interest in eating it as he would eating shit. 

Thats just my way of saying that expecting him to eat it, and pinning your hopes on it, is not the work of masterminds. Tyrion could not give a shit about wedding pie courtesies and his behaviour throughout the wedding just backs that up. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Illyrio Mo'Parties

Cheers from breaking down JS's version of events, naturally I have counters and questions but I'll direct them at him when he's back on. I don't come on much at the weekends so won't really be playing much part but that will give him time to reply to my numerous posts and points.