Preston Jacobs and the Purple Wedding

[John Suburbs]

So it's been fun, but I agree that it's getting a little unwieldy. So if possible, let's try to avoid going over the same ground again and again and tighten up all of our separate lines of conversation.

I probably won't be back on until Monday as well, so if there are any burning questions or flames that you feel must be addressed, try to hold off til then, of just PM me.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I love how you assert the idea that it is impossible for Tyrion to have reached the hairnet based on his size. It is a ridiculous assumption, but you state it as fact. People move. Sansa isn't always standing, and when she is sitting Tyrion does not need a fool's back to climb on to reach his wife's hair.

Do you really think that after Sansa was caught with the poison secreted on her person any story she told would be believed? The Tyrells need a patsy for their conspiracy, and they have the two best possible ones in the hated Imp and his wife, the daughter of a traitor. Both have reason to kill Joff. Sansa's conviction and death are what the Tyrell's need. Not her escape. Especially her escape into Littlefinger's custody and plots.

Sansa had to get on her knees for Tyrion to drape his wedding cloak around her shoulders. Honest, it's in the book.

Even if they are both sitting, why make him reach up to her head in full view of thousands of people when they could just easily carry the poison in a pocket?

Tywin does not think his son is a fool, and there is no reason why they would need to smuggle the poison in this way, except to make it easy for someone else to get it. It's a simple and obvious question to ask when she pleads ignorance: who touched your hair that morning? Why, the Queen of Thorns.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Not really. There is no mention of what color the wine is after Cressen puts the crystals in it. 

No, but he looks into the goblet to see that there is only half-a-swallow left, and he notices nothing unusual about the color or anything else. So one wine is obviously purple both in and out of a deep chalice (except for the time in between when it suddenly turns red), while the other does not appear unusual at all when looking into a small goblet. Which one does the text suggest is the more poisoned?

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa got out.

By using the secret passage we see Littlefinger himself use with Ned earlier.  If the messenger is traveling the same route as Sansa, he wouldn't get there much ahead of her.

Quote

He can't pick up the rowboat until the coast is clear, and he can't be sure of that until the sun is up and he is far enough out to sea to be certain there are no other sails in view.

If it's so dark out that he can't see other ships nearby, then by that same logic the other ships cannot see him either.

Quote

It is not an ill-defined reason. It is to make sure that he knows what is going on with the most dangerous operation he has ever put into motion.

As addressed above, this hypothetical other agent would not bring him any particularly useful information in any amount of time meaningful time.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Like I said, if Sansa gets caught, Lady O is next. There is no way she would hold up under even mild interrogation.

Sansa doesn't have anything that would incriminate Olenna. 

As I already noted, and as GRRM himself later said, there is no purpose to having Sansa wear the hairnet other than to set her up to take the fall if need be.  The people walking into the hall aren't being searched; it would otherwise be much easier for Olenna to just take the poison herself.  The idea that Littlefinger just gave Sansa the poison with no plan for how to use it, to the point where they didn't even have any other poison once they'd decided on a course of action, is ridiculous.

[Lord Wraith]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

One of the fortunate side effects of an early judgement on the crackpot nature of his analysis is that I missed all of that. I read a lot of people I think are informed, intelligent fans of ASoI&F but that also means I have little time for nonsense like you describe. I know that means I perhaps miss something of value, but I think I gain by reading more serious analysis.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also a question about his use of all that fan art in his videos without the artist's permission? I love fan art, but I don't use other's work to promote my own thinking. If true, it seems a bit sleazy.

 

Preston for me is about the connections he finds in the text but not his conclusions. He finds lots of things other have missed which is why I continue to watch.

I know he gives credit to the artists in every video I have seen. I remember people saying he didn't do that for the longest time but I have never seen any evidence of it. I can't be sure about using it without permission since I am not the artist in question.

Other than his connections he finds he is doing a reread of a lot of Martin's previous works in the 1000 worlds which I have personally found rather enlightening but I can certain people don't like his way of thinking.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa had to get on her knees for Tyrion to drape his wedding cloak around her shoulders. Honest, it's in the book.

Then you have a different book than I do. In mine Sansa refuses to go to her knees and Tyrion is forced to stand on Ser Dontos's back to drape the wedding cloak around Sansa's shoulders.

Quote

And so it was that her lord husband cloaked her in the colors of House Lannister whilst standing on the back of a fool. (ASoS 320)

How does any of this say it is impossible for Tyrion to reach a hairnet on Sansa's head while they are seated side by side? It doesn't and you are using one set of facts to assume another. Sorry, but you don't have the evidence to do that.

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Even if they are both sitting, why make him reach up to her head in full view of thousands of people when they could just easily carry the poison in a pocket?

Poison in the pocket is not very accessible to Lady Olenna is it? It wouldn't do for her to have to pick Sansa's pocket to get access to the poison. Nor does it make much sense to tell Sansa that she must bring a bunch of purple crystals to the wedding in her pocket. Or to get Tyrion to do the same. Even Sansa might get suspicious of why she is being told to do so. Tyrion would know the set up in a minute. Sansa wearing a beautiful hairnet on the other hand does not seem like such an outrageous and strange request, and all Lady Olenna need do is to "help" the young girl with her hair to gain access to the murder weapon, and to have it found on Sansa's person.

Please remember that Tyrion does not take the crystal from the hairnet. He and Sansa are only patsies, set up to take the fall. As such the finding of the poison on Sansa is proof positive to the world of their guilt. It's what every good murder conspiracy needs. Sansa and Tyrion both have the motive to murder Joffrey, and they have the means to do so. No one will bother with their protests of innocence. They certainly didn't with Tyrion. Why would they do so with Sansa? She is only his co-conspirator in the crime, who brings the murder weapon into the wedding and tries to take it away from searching eyes.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin does not think his son is a fool, and there is no reason why they would need to smuggle the poison in this way, except to make it easy for someone else to get it. It's a simple and obvious question to ask when she pleads ignorance: who touched your hair that morning? Why, the Queen of Thorns.

And the answer is why would the Lady Olenna and the Tyrells murder the king who is marrying Margaery? The answer is that Joffrey has a much better brother for Margaery to marry. As a king Tommen is much, much more likely to be controlled by his wife than the psychotic and sadistic Joffrey. But for the world it makes little sense for them to kill a king that just made a daughter of Highgarden his queen. Give the world an easy answer, and they are far less likely to dig into the shadows for conspiracies between the Tyrells snd Littlefinger.

For Tywin, the smuggling of the poison in in the guise of a hairnet makes perfect sense if one wants to get it out again undetected. It is quite clever, in fact. Tyrion would not want the crystals found on him, but not everyone will recognize the hairnet for what it is.

No, JS, your objections to what we know to be the murder plot make no sense whatsoever.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, but he looks into the goblet to see that there is only half-a-swallow left, and he notices nothing unusual about the color or anything else. So one wine is obviously purple both in and out of a deep chalice (except for the time in between when it suddenly turns red), while the other does not appear unusual at all when looking into a small goblet. Which one does the text suggest is the more poisoned?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Are you saying that because Cressen doesn't say anything about the appearance of the wine it means it wasn't changed? We don't know the color if the wine after it was poisoned. The text does not say. I don't think you can use lack of information to say it wasn't changed. We don't know. 

I don't think we can know which one is more or less poisoned. I would guess that Cressen's is more poisoned based on the smaller volume of wine compared to the larger volume of wine in Joff's 3 foot chalice. However, there are too many variables (amount of leaves used, amount of ash used, how long it was soaked and aged) to determine for sure which was more poisoned. 

With that in mInd, we have only the two instances of the Strangler being used. There are a lot of unknowns. Yet the logistics of your theory are dependent on the differences in these two poisonings. Why can't there be a slight difference in the timing between ingestion and death? People react differently to medicines. I don't see the logic in saying that because Joff took slightly longer to die after drinking the wine it means it wasn't the wine that killed him. 

What is your explanation for Joff's wine turning purple?  

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I would guess that Cressen's is more poisoned based on the smaller volume of wine compared to the larger volume of wine in Joff's 3 foot chalice.

I've wondered about the following: how did Melisandre survive? Did her magic allow her to survive the poison, or did her magic prevent her from drinking the poison? If it is the latter, and Melisandre's magic filtered all of the poison out of the wine that she drank, all poison that had been in the cup would have remained in the swallow that was left for Cressen.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Just now, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I've wondered about the following: how did Melisandre survive? Did her magic allow her to survive the poison, or did her magic prevent her from drinking the poison? If it is the latter, and Melisandre's magic filtered all of the poison out of the wine that she drank, all poison that had been in the cup would have remained in the swallow that was left for Cressen.

Interesting! I have always wondered if Mel had some sort of effect on Cressen's drinking of the poison as well. I like this idea. More details of the wine would have been helpful.

[Luddagain]

Now I have not got the books nearby but i recollect that Littlefinger did NOT accuse Lady tyrell

 

Rather he asked Sansa 'Did someone adjust your hairnet" etc.  sansa replies lady oleanna and so she ASSUMED she was in on the plot.

 

Rather I think that Littlefinger assumed that someone would help Sansa- a gesture of kindness - women do that. It was  a safe bet and if Sansa had said no one he would have thought of another story.

[Scion of House Osgrey]

I think the Tyrells tried to poison Tyrion. And Joffrey died because he eat Tyrion pie 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'm looking forward to the long-absent friend, HS=HR, reemerging as a Preston Jacobs' brand new theory.

[Darktastes]

Georgie likes to play with his readers expectations, so Preston does have a point. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 2/10/2017 at 0:31 PM, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey: yanks chalice from Tyrion's hands, drinks long and deep multiple times;

Incorrect. Only one drink at this point. 

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I'm looking forward to the long-absent friend, HS=HR, reemerging as a Preston Jacobs' brand new theory.

Or better yet maybe he'll resurrect the corn, corn, corn code.

[Lord Wraith]

9 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I'm looking forward to the long-absent friend, HS=HR, reemerging as a Preston Jacobs' brand new theory.

Please no, that theory needs to stay dead. Makes you wonder how Preston decides on what theory to do next? I think his Patreon members vote on it maybe?

[Colonel Green]

18 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Rather I think that Littlefinger assumed that someone would help Sansa- a gesture of kindness - women do that. 

Help her with what?  There wasn't anything wrong with Sansa's hairnet, as far as we know; it was a pretext for Olenna to take the poison from it (and we know there was poison there).

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

14 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I'm looking forward to the long-absent friend, HS=HR, reemerging as a Preston Jacobs' brand new theory.

I hate it when people act like this nonsense is copyrighted

 

5 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Makes you wonder how Preston decides on what theory to do next? I think his Patreon members vote on it maybe?

I believe that is allegedly the case

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Help her with what?  There wasn't anything wrong with Sansa's hairnet, as far as we know; it was a pretext for Olenna to take the poison from it (and we know there was poison there).

In addition, Sansa has maids who help her with her clothing and her hair.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

44 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

In addition, Sansa has maids who help her with her clothing and her hair.

Interestingly enough, it was Shae who helped Sansa with the hairnet.

Quote

Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears. Sansa wore a gown of silvery satin trimmed in vair, with dagged sleeves that almost touched the floor, lined in soft purple felt. Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones. Tyrion had never seen her look more lovely, yet she wore sorrow on those long satin sleeves. “Lady Sansa,” he told her, “you shall be the most beautiful woman in the hall tonight.”

Hopefully Preston isn't reading this. We may have a Dontos-Shae-LF-Tywin-Lady O theory coming up next...