Preston Jacobs and the Purple Wedding

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Yes, I should have said "towards the end". Although, Tyrion was trying to leave to change clothes, so it was possibly the end for him.

 

Yes that's something to keep in mind also. Tyrion is sitting soaking wet after being drenched by the little prick, that's not exactly gonna have him excited about sitting and eating Joffreys pie. 

You know what's worth noting also, it's not a Royal decree that you have to eat the wedding pie that will see your head lopped off if you don't eat it. It's simply "ill luck not to eat the pie". 

Tyrion couldn't give two shits about luck either so to expect him to eat pie (after not eating the last twenty courses) on the strength of "a saying" about ill luck is just silly. 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, he is not a much better brother. He is a little boy who won't be able to father a child on Margaery for another five years or more, during which time Margy is simply the queen-in-waiting while Cersei -- who would otherwise be shipped off to Dorne or wherever in a fortnight -- will continue as Queen Regent.

You are making the mistake in thinking that Lady Olenna thinks the way a 20th century grandmother would: that all she wants is for her children and grandchildren to be safe and happy. As a sharp player in the Game of Thrones, she would actually be thinking the way a titular head of a noble house in a feudal society thinks: that the fortunes of the house trump the happiness, even the safety, of any individual family member. Both she and Margaery know that sometimes highborn ladies have to enter into unhappy, even dangerous, marriages for the good of their houses. The real goal here is not to find Margy a good husband, but to put a Tyrell on the Iron Thron, cementing the house's future to that of the realm. They get that within a year with Joffrey, but not for half a decade at least with Tommen.

I disagree. Tommen is the better brother. Once she is married to Joffrey, Margaery is Queen (one of the goals the Tyrells have), but it might take years to have a son - she might give birth to only daughter first, for example, or take a while to conceive a child at all - during which time she is in danger of evoking Joffrey's cruel side.

And once Margaery has a son by Joffrey and Joffrey dies, Tywin would begin a regency. And certainly, he would be the regent. Which means that Margaery would lose her influence, and might even be parted from her son as she would likely be made to marry someone else, thereby limiting the influence she has on her own son as well.

Additionally, the Tyrells are very much aware of what Joffrey is like. The men who accompanied LF made sure of that by spreading the rumors of all Joffrey has done, and Sansa confirmed it further. Margaery has only been in KL for a short time, and though Joffrey has been gallant to her during that time, that is absolutely no assurance for the future (he was gallant to Sansa too, at first). And clearly, Joffrey's "lapses" are growing more and more frequent.

He plays the gracious king today. Joffrey could be gallant when it suited him, Sansa knew, but it seemed to suit him less and less. 

So, by marrying her to Tommen instead of Joffrey, the Tyrells have to wait at least a few years for a Tyrell-heir with a right to the throne. But they gain so much by doing so: Margaery gets to keep her position at court as the Queen, and has the ability to influence Tommen, which she'll have an easier time doing than influencing Joffrey.

By marriage to Tommen, the King, Margaery is Queen. The only Queen at court, most likely, as Cersei will leave for the seat of whichever man she is married off to (because Joffrey's death is no reason for Tywin to decide not to marry Cersei off to someone anymore). Tywin is clear about wanting to keep Cersei away from Tommen.

And Olenna's goal is not to put a Tyrell on the throne. That's Mace's goal. Olenna's goal would sooner be to ensure that it has a bigger chance of succes.. And people are much more likely to rebel against a cruel and injust king (Joffrey) than against a just and kind king (Tommen), I would think. Once Joffrey turns 16, Tywin's influence over him diminishes, as the king reaches his majority. That's only some two years away, counting from the wedding. Who is to stop him from doing whatever he wants then?

 

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I will also note that the text clearly shows that Joffrey is exhibiting no hostile feelings toward Margaery at all ("Come, my lady..." He twirled her around merrily...) so there is no reason at all to think he is going to gut and filet her in the wedding bed that night. So at best, Joffrey represents a possible threat to Margy someday in the future, maybe. If and when that becomes a problem, there are plenty of ways to get rid of him and make it look like an accident. By then, of course, Margy will have produced one or more heir, the Tyrell link to the IT is secure, and Margy herself now rules as Queen Regent until her eldest son comes of age. So by killing Joff now, Lady O is trading a near certainty of an heir for House Tyrell and rolling the dice that a) an offer for Tommen will be made, and b ) either one of them will be around in five years to produce children (a very iffy prospect in a feudal society at war with itself).

How can Olenna be certain that Margaery conceives a child and gives birth to a son before Joffrey starts to act cruel and violent towards her? She cannot. And whether Margaery would become the queen regent... That's only a guess..

As to "rolling the dice".. Of course an offer will be made for Tommen. The Joffrey/Margaery match was made to seal the alliances between House Lannister and House Tyrell. Without Joffrey, Tywin has no other choice than to offer Tommen.

And if Tommen and Margaery are no longer around in five years, any child Margaery could have had in the scenario in which she had remained married to Joffrey would not likely to be around anymore either, as it would likely mean that they lost the war. 

 

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My suspicion is that Mel is already dead, so she is immune to poison, but probably not fire.

But the idea is intriguing. It's one of the better ones I've heard to explain the discrepancy, but as is pointed out ad nauseum: no text, no proof.

And as I pointed out above, higher dilution does not slow the poison, just weakens its affect.

And when drinking more wine, i.e. ingesting more of the poison, the affects become stronger, right?

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.”

“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. “I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want. ..” His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

Margaery looked at him with concern. “Your Grace?”

“It’s, kof, the pie, noth - kof, pie.” Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. “I, kof, I can’t, kof kof kof kof...” The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.

He drinks before coughing the first time, and has to cough more violently after drinking more. 

[JonSnow4President]

Quick question.  How reasonable would the flagon used to refill the chalice be as the poison insertion point given the specific text of the event? My books are kind of lost away as a result of a recent move, and it's been about a year since I've read that scene.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You know what's worth noting also, it's not a Royal decree that you have to eat the wedding pie that will see your head lopped off if you don't eat it. It's simply "ill luck not to eat the pie".

I always thought Joff saying, "It's I'll luck not to eat the pie" was just Joff trying to further humiliate Tyrion to make him stay while covered in wine.

IMO, if it is WesterosI custom to eat the pie we need more than just this one quote from Joff.

[JonSnow4President]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I always thought Joff saying, "It's I'll luck not to eat the pie" was just Joff trying to further humiliate Tyrion to make him stay while covered in wine.

IMO, if it is WesterosI custom to eat the pie we need more than just this one quote from Joff.

Meh, it jives with the real world superstition with birthday/wedding cakes. I see no reason to doubt it being true.  

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I always thought Joff saying, "It's I'll luck not to eat the pie" was just Joff trying to further humiliate Tyrion to make him stay while covered in wine.

IMO, if it is WesterosI custom to eat the pie we need more than just this one quote from Joff.

Oh, it probably is a custom. On the other hand, it was more than likely that Tyrion wouldn't give a rat's (or a pigeon's) ass about customs and traditions, and only a small chance that Joffrey would A, notice, B, care about it and react at all, and C, react in that specific way (instead of, I don't know, "My pie is too good for my piece of shit of an uncle, take it away from him, better yet, kick him out!"). Further, a real, if small, risk that his lady wife would eat the damn pie in his stead.

So many things could go wrong, or horribly wrong.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Ferocious Veldt Roarer @JonSnow4President

Okay. Fair enough. I'll accept that it probably is Westerosi custom to eat the pie.

[sgtpimenta]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Oh, it probably is a custom. On the other hand, it was more than likely that Tyrion wouldn't give a rat's (or a pigeon's) ass about customs and traditions, and only a small chance that Joffrey would A, notice, B, care about it and react at all, and C, react in that specific way (instead of, I don't know, "My pie is too good for my piece of shit of an uncle, take it away from him, better yet, kick him out!"). Further, a real, if small, risk that his lady wife would eat the damn pie in his stead.

So many things could go wrong, or horribly wrong.

Yeah... Tyrion could eat just a bite. Or he could give his piece away, or another guest could intercept his plate before he could be served.

Remember, if the piece of poison was hidden in the pie, the victim must eat the exact portion of the piece of pie on his plate to be poisoned. The only way to be sure of the poisoning by pie is to make sure your victim-to-be eat all the piece of pie containing the purple crystal. While, on the other hand, if the liquid-soluble poison was placed on the chalice (and dissolved in wine), a small sip of poisoned wine should be enough.

Just another reason for choosing wine instead of pie as a poison delivery mechanism.

[WalkinDude]

And yet no one has mentioned the absurdity of putting a poison that dilutes in liquid on a young girls head.  Not only did Sansa have the hair net weeks in advance, what if she perspired, got caught in the rain or the oils used in her hair interacted with the poison?  We don't know what would happen if the poison was absorbed by a part of the body other than the throat.  But imagine Sansa taking a squirt and the hairnet falling into her chamber pot, knocking over a glass of wine or any of a million other ways she could introduce a liquid into contact with the "gems" and look in awe as they disintegrated.  Joffrey poured the chalice over Tyrion, something that certainly wasn't planned.  But what if he had done that to Sansa?  As someone pointed out, if Sansa gets caught with the poison, Tywin is going to immediately know that she wasn't capable of gathering The Strangler on her own, and probably wasn't even aware of its existence.  Poison would be associated with Dorne, and who just happens to be there from Dorne?  Who just happened to have several meetings with Oberyn?  The fall person wasn't Sansa, but the Martells.  With Myrcella being in Dorne and a possible heir to the IT if Joffrey and Tommen were to die, what better way to create a conflict for the Tyrells to prosper in than add another great house the Lannisters would be in open conflict with?  

 

I think greater thought needs to be given that the poisoning could have indeed come from the Martells, especially if you believe that Oberyn was poisoning Tywin.  What better way to get revenge for Ellia and her children than to take the grand child of Tywin?  We know the Sand Snakes were in on Arianne's plot to seat Myrcella.  And while Doran was certainly upset at Arianne's plan, he never explicitly condemned the idea of using Dornish law to seat Myrcella.  

We know that the hairnet was a fake, Olenna touched it, and that a crystal was missing when Sansa boarded LF's ship.  Yes, the text certainly leads us to believe it was the source of the poison, but in a story so thought out and schemes and plots so eloquently planned, putting the poison on the hairnet of a teenage girl weeks before it would be used comes in stark contrast with the elaborate plans and schemes of Little Finger.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

2 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

And yet no one has mentioned the absurdity of putting a poison that dilutes in liquid on a young girls head.  Not only did Sansa have the hair net weeks in advance, what if she perspired, got caught in the rain or the oils used in her hair interacted with the poison? ... Yes, the text certainly leads us to believe it was the source of the poison, but in a story so thought out and schemes and plots so eloquently planned, putting the poison on the hairnet of a teenage girl weeks before it would be used comes in stark contrast with the elaborate plans and schemes of Little Finger.

Are you saying that Sansa was wearing the hairnet the whole time before the wedding? Because she most certainly did not. Sansa would hardly wear something she'd had on for weeks to the royal wedding feast. This hairnet is an accessory for dressing-up, it needs to be compatible with her "Sunday-best" clothing that would be worn for the most formal event there is in a royal court. It would look expensive and glamorous, covered with what resembles many precious stones - very formal - and being a net, it would be a bit fragile.

Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones.

So she kept it with her clothing until it was time to dress for the feast. Looking back over the chapters, she didn't wear the hairnet to the Sept for the wedding ceremony, but put it on later with a different dress before going from her chamber to the throne room (and therefore she was inside the castle during that time, nowhere near any rain).

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

The idea that the wedding organizer can arrange a specific plate is ludicrous.  I've been to large catered events.  Even with multiple dessert or plate options, a specific plate isn't tied to a specific guest unless it requires specific cooking instructions. They're brought out on carts/treys and distributed by grabbing whatever balances best and giving it to the next guest [that ordered that food].

Further, isn't Olenna's involvement in the planning of the Wedding a show construct?  From what I recall of the books, Cersei is responsible for the organizing. 

The pie is every bit as problematic as you claim the wine is, and you refusing to admit that comes across as particularly thickheaded..  If a crystaline poison disolves in liquid, we have no reason to suspect it would dissolve completely in cooked food.  The outer layer of it might since pie is typically moist, but since there isn't real diffusion in solids (at least that I am aware of), it would likely be able to be detected (depends on how small the original stone was and on how thoroughly someone would chew). Add in the ridiculousness of the distribution you favor for some reason and I can't understand why you prefer the pie for the poisoned object that actually happened as opposed to the consumable that changes color to match the poison, even if you think it is contrived.

ETA after your response: I'm reaching on top of a 3 foot hutch on one side of the desk right now.  It's not hard. I'm a similar height and reach to the characters involved. 

Tell me.  When you're at a wedding, and the bride and groom are cutting the cake where it's not right in front of you, how many people at your table do you think would notice you stand up (perhaps for a better view)?  As long as you don't move suddenly, you can do amazing things when people aren't paying attention. Or even when they're trying to figure out how things are done. Humans are pretty damn oblivious, as much as we like to think otherwise. 

She is the Queen of Thorns, grandmother to the bride and the Tyrells are providing all the food for the feast. Also, she has been shown to be a micromanager, especially when it comes to food: "The cheese will be served when I want it served, and I want it served now." It would be well within her prerogative to ensure that this formal event at the feast is carried out smoothly, especially for the head table. Tyrion's pie is served within seconds after the cutting ceremony ends -- it had to be right nearby, already plated and ready to go.

Tyrion gives us copious descriptions of the entire feast and there is no mention of carts, trays, trollies of anything other than servants serving food.

The pie filling is moist and warm. It doesn't need to dissolve completely, or at all, or diffuse throughout the whole piece. If Tyrion bites down on it, he will think it is nothing more than a bone, and by then it will be too late. It is also almost certain that Tyrion will eat at least one bite because this is the Wedding Pie and "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," and it is also highly probable that his one and only bite will be the front corner, which also happens to be the easiest place to slip the crystal. Besides, he doesn't start the real choking until after he drinks wine again, and then five or six seconds, just like Cressen, his "the words (are) caught in his throat."

Try it yourself: Stand a yardstick straight up on your kitchen table about an arm's reach inward and slightly to the right or left. Then see if you can reach the top of it without two people standing right next to you seeing. Even if Garlan or anyone else could accomplish this one-in-a-million move, Lady O would never countenance such a risk when practically her entire family is in the throne room surrounded by Lannister guards.

 

 

 

[Nowy Tends]

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The pie filling is moist and warm

Moist? Joffrey says it's "dry, though" and needs to be washed down…

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Again, just because Cressen doesn't comment on the wine being purple it doesn't mean you can say it was still red. We don't know. You can't use a lack of information to say it did or didn't change colors.

The text does not make anything clear about the type of poison the Strangler is other than what Cressen gives us. 

You may be right that it is a contact poison. You probably are. However, it is still a fictional poison in a fantasy series. So all we know is what the text tells us about it. It tightens the throat, shutting off the windpipe. To me, it would make sense that IF Joff's was not as strong as Cressen's that Joff's throat began to tighten after his first drink. He then, with his throat tighter was able to take a bite of pie then remark on how dry it is. It probably would seem dry if you're throat was tighter than usual. He then takes another drink and dies. This makes sense.

You seem to be under the assumption that the two poisonings must occur exactly the same. Why? Two different Strangler poisons (they were most likely made separately) taken by two different people can have different results. 

How do you explain Joff's wine turning purple?

He doesn't notice anything amiss and he is looking into a small goblet in a well-lit room while Tyrion is looking into a cup deep enough to hold an entire flagon. In my book that is about as clear evidence as there is to show that Cressen's wine looked perfectly normal.

It makes it perfectly clear, as I explained. If the strangler worked through the bloodstream, it would take minutes to attack the victim, not seconds. There is simply no other way it could work so fast.

The throat muscles of a perfectly healthy 13yo boy are weaker than those of an 80yo man who can barely climb a flight of stairs? Then why does it take him longer to succumb? Are you sure you didn't write that backward?

Which "first drink" are you talking about? The one before the cutting? The one after? Either way, your theory is off because you have him drinking large quantities of the same wine and suffering no noticeable affect at all for long periods, then he takes a final, normal-sized drink and starts choking in seconds. So the victim reacts more quickly to the poison the less he drinks?

Two poisons, delivered in exactly the same way, except that the slower reaction comes from the person who drinks multiple gulps of wine that is so poisoned it has turned purple. Sorry, not possible.

The strangler is very difficult to make and it requires a host of rare and exotic ingredients that must be cooked and prepped according to an exacting formula that takes laborious months to complete. Highly unlikely that it would produce reaction times that vary by five or six orders of magnitude.

Joffrey barfed up the contents of his mouth seconds before he dropped the chalice. Most of the red wine spills out immediately while a glob of poisoned pie filling, or perhaps the crystal itself, sits in the dregs until Tyrion dumps it out. If the crystal has been in the chalice since the cutting, and Joffrey has yanked it out of Tyrion's hands, chugged the now purple wine, wheeled it about as he bantered over the pie and otherwise stirred it up nice and thoroughly, how does the wine turn back to red at that point only to re-emerge as purple at the end of the scene?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You said this:

The text does not say multiple times. It only says "Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin."

Yes, each time his throat works, that is another gulp of wine going down. Joffrey is consuming massively more quantities if wine than Cressen, and Joffrey's wine is so thoroughly poisoned it has turned purple.

21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Why does it have to align with Cressen's poisoning? Two different people are consuming two different brands of Stranger, most likely created by two different people in two different (yet still similar) ways. The two different brands (and probably amounts) of Strangler are being placed into two different volumes of wine. Why do the two poisonings have to align the EXACT same way? 

Explained above. If anything, Cressen should have succumbed slower due to the smaller quantity of less-poisoned wine -- assuming, of course, that the strangler defies the laws of physics, chemistry and physiology and is actually slowed by dilution, not weakened.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

As GRRM outlined, the poison was in the hairnet to make Sansa the fall guy if need be.  That's what Sansa's whole plotline leading up to the wedding was setting up.

"If and when that becomes a problem", it will be blatantly obvious that the Tyrells killed him; nobody would be more cognizant of that than Cersei.  That's why they act pre-emptively.  Moreover, it's entirely possible, as Sansa realizes, that the situation will escalate past the point of no return before there's any time for more measured steps.

And Joffrey didn't just give Sansa a few black eyes and a cut lip.  He had had stripped and beaten in open court with steel swords by the Kingsguard, and had her beaten so regularly before that that she had developed a ranking of the Kingsguard knights in terms of how they handled it.  He is an uncontrollable sadist, who'll only get worse the older he gets.  Not for nothing is he compared to Aerys II.

No, not true.  That is Sansa's own intuition, one that Littlefinger later repeats.  The point of that is to show that Sansa is starting to operate on Littlefinger's analytical wavelength, and correctly perceived the inherent instability of the situation and the Tyrells' odd confidence in spite of this.

They could easily make it appear like Joffrey killed himself by accident, say, with his new crossbow. Cersei made Robert's death look the a boar did it. These are crafty women.

Plenty of queens have endured far worse for the honor of their houses. And as is plainly evident from the text, Joffrey is in no way, shape or form, hostile or angry with Margaery in any way. He actions toward her at the wedding should be enough to convince anyone that he is tickled pink to be marrying a hot 17yo rather than droopy, mopey Sansa. Their two situations in relation to Joffrey could not be more different.

There are plenty of ways to off Joffrey later, in private, and get away with clean hands, and by then Margy will be Queen Regent to the next heir. The Tyrell's could have had everything they desired within a year, but instead a sharp-eyed, sharp-witted GoT player like Lady O would roll the dice and hope that Tommen will be around to bed Margy five years from now? Please.

I don't recall Sansa arriving at her own conclusion about Loras first, but it's late so I'll take your word for it. Either way, it's nonsense. Loras' tirade was an emotional reaction to the sudden and gruesome murder of his lover and king. Aside from Loras walking into the royal bedchamber one morning and finding Margy gutted and fileted like a sow, he is not going to up and murder the king. And book Joffrey does not simply murder women just for kicks. That's show Joffrey.

 

20 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

That's not true.  The reveal of who really killed Jon Arryn significantly alters how one views the entire series, as well as, going forward, Littlefinger, the Lannisters (who, it turns out, didn't kill Arryn; while we knew Tyrion wasn't behind it, most readers thought Cersei was at that point), as well as our understanding of everything Lysa did over the course of the series.

The suggesting misconception around what happened at the Purple Wedding, on the other hand, is meaningless.  The only character who knows the current version of events is Sansa, and it really has nothing to do with any of her subsequent actions or motivations.

Jon Arryn is long dead, we already know Littlefinger is a conniving weasel and Lysa is an unstable nutbag.

The reveal of the Purple Wedding will show the readers that no matter how obvious something seems in aSoIaF, you have to dig deep into the subtext to understand what is really going on. It will also show that LF has a profound ability to see the situation both as it is, and as it appears to others, and he can act on those perceptions to align with others for their mutual benefit.

And as @Illyrio mentions, it can also provide the impetus Sansa needs to finally ditch Littlefinger.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, SFDanny said:

But ease of access isn't the only question here, is it? Nor is it the most important. The hairnet gives two vital benefits that are denied if Lady Olenna brings it in in her pockets.

1. She could be searched and the poison could be found on her - thus incriminating her in the crime. With the poison in the hairnet she, and any co-conspirators who might also want access to the poison, only need carry the murder weapon in the amount they want and from the time they gather it from the hairnet to its use. No, search of their person entering the wedding, or leaving after the crime would incriminate them.
2. Sansa, as one of the chosen patsies, will have the murder weapon found on them in any search of the guests for the poison. Thereby guaranteeing any suspicion falling on Sansa and Tyrion will produce evidence showing their guilt, and not the guilt of the real murderers.

Why would she be searched? What possible reason could anyone have for stopping and frisking the grandmother of the bride at the wedding feast.

How is anyone who searches Sansa going to make the connection between a tiny missing crystal in a hairnet and a dead king on the floor? To my mind, that would immediately draw suspicion on the accuser.

 

19 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Why would any protest from Sansa about Lady Olenna "touching her hair" make anyone believe Sansa innocent of the crime? Sansa has the motive to kill Joffrey, and she has the actual weapon found upon her person. Her husband has threatened violence to the king, and has actually hit him on numerous occasions. The Tyrells and the old lady Olenna have no known motive for committing such a crime, and it would seem counterproductive to Highgarden's interests. It's absurd to think Sansa's story of "the old lady must have done it" and the "fool told me to wear the hairnet" would be believed by anyone. Nor is Tywin likely to jump to such an outrageous idea that would destroy the alliance that has brought him victory.

Because nobody is going to believe that little Sansa, all by herself, with no friends, no money and no way to leave the Red Keep, was able to acquire this rare and expensive poison and find a jeweler to craft a silver hairnet with a trick clasp just so she could strut around with the murder weapon in her hair rather than in her pocket. Even if Tyrion was the mastermind behind all this, it still makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that they would carry the poison this way rather than secretly on their person.

Also, the hair-straightening incident took place amid numerous, unimpeachable guests -- Kevan and Lancel among them -- so it could be easily verified by any number of sources. Add that to the fact that Lady O was on her feet and in the immediate area just before the poisoning occurred and a smart man like Tywin would certainly start to wonder.

And yes, murder of his grandson, the king, would be more than enough for Tywin to execute every Tyrell in the capital, fall on their army that is camped outside completely unaware of what has just happened, then march on Highgarden. Look at what he did to the riverlands when Catelyn kidnapped his vile dwarf son?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Ferocious Veldt RoarerSorry. FVR, it isn't letting me remove this.

41 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

He doesn't notice anything amiss and he is looking into a small goblet in a well-lit room

That doesn't mean the wine didn't change colors. We don't know. Cressen doesn't say what the color is. He is about to attempt murder. Why remark on the color of the wine? You can't use non information to say the color did or didn't change color.

47 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The throat muscles of a perfectly healthy 13yo boy are weaker than those of an 80yo man who can barely climb a flight of stairs? Then why does it take him longer to succumb? Are you sure you didn't write that backward?

Where did I say anything about the strength/weakness of Cressen or Joff's throat muscles? 

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Which "first drink" are you talking about? The one before the cutting? The one after?

After the cutting of course. Joff's drink after Tyrion refilled it wasn't poisoned yet. 

 

52 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Two poisons, delivered in exactly the same way, except that the slower reaction comes from the person who drinks multiple gulps of wine that is so poisoned it has turned purple. Sorry, not possible.

The strangler is very difficult to make and it requires a host of rare and exotic ingredients that must be cooked and prepped according to an exacting formula that takes laborious months to complete. Highly unlikely that it would produce reaction times that vary by five or six orders of magnitude.

You say this like the Strangler has a standard time frame of death following consumption. This seems to be what you are hung up on. Out of the two, just two, Strangler poisonings in the series you want them to have the exact same result. That is unrealistic, IMO. 

Yes, the process is slow and difficult. That doesn't mean that one guy used a tiny bit more ash or another guy let it crystalize for an extra two days...There is no way we should expect two poisonings on two different people from two different batches of different amounts of Strangler in two different volumes of wine to happen EXACTLY the same. How different is a few seconds anyways? After all, we only have the two poisonings to look at. Maybe the Strangler can take up to a minute, we don't know. When Cressen describes the poison he makes no mention if timeframe from consumption to death. You are using Cressen's poisoning as the only exact timeframe which can occur from consuming the Strangler. We don't know. 

 

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

She is the Queen of Thorns, grandmother to the bride and the Tyrells are providing all the food for the feast. Also, she has been shown to be a micromanager, especially when it comes to food: "The cheese will be served when I want it served, and I want it served now." It would be well within her prerogative to ensure that this formal event at the feast is carried out smoothly, especially for the head table. Tyrion's pie is served within seconds after the cutting ceremony ends -- it had to be right nearby, already plated and ready to go.

I'm your boss and I'll have cheese when I want to have my f***ing cheese is in no way, shape, or form indicative of a proclivity to obsessively organize every detail of a massive event that she is only on record as restoring the flow of food into the city for.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion gives us copious descriptions of the entire feast and there is no mention of carts, trays, trollies of anything other than servants serving food.

From a practical standpoint, something has to exist.  Otherwise you have roughly 1 servant for every 4 guests swarming the room at once, or each of 77 courses taking forever.  Regardless, prearranging which pie is Tyrion's in any form is ridiculously implausible, and there is no reason to think Olenna even has that capability (without stretching the equivalent of "I'll have my dessert when I order it dumb waiter" beyond all logic)

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The pie filling is moist and warm. It doesn't need to dissolve completely, or at all, or diffuse throughout the whole piece. If Tyrion bites down on it, he will think it is nothing more than a bone, and by then it will be too late. It is also almost certain that Tyrion will eat at least one bite because this is the Wedding Pie and "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," and it is also highly probable that his one and only bite will be the front corner, which also happens to be the easiest place to slip the crystal. Besides, he doesn't start the real choking until after he drinks wine again, and then five or six seconds, just like Cressen, his "the words (are) caught in his throat."

That's not how diffusion works.  Let's say she places it in the corner of the pie because that's where someone would take the first bite.  The poison will remain in the tip of the pie.  Unlike liquid, it won't diffuse throughout the entire thing, but will be locked to a very small area around the crystal because solids don't move around. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Try it yourself: Stand a yardstick straight up on your kitchen table about an arm's reach inward and slightly to the right or left. Then see if you can reach the top of it without two people standing right next to you seeing. Even if Garlan or anyone else could accomplish this one-in-a-million move, Lady O would never countenance such a risk when practically her entire family is in the throne room surrounded by Lannister guards.

As we've been over it, it's an easy reach for someone my height, which Garlan is very close to. If every eye in the room has an explicit reason to have their eyes elsewhere, it's far from implausible. Humans suck at being all seeing observational beings.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey barfed up the contents of his mouth seconds before he dropped the chalice.

As unlikely and unsupported by the text as this is, it is also impossible. The wine was purple in Joff's first drink following the cutting BEFORE he takes a bite.

Quote

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.”

“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. “I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want …” His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

snip

So let's try to consolidate all this for brevity's sake

You are still comparing apples to oranges. From the moment the strangler enters the throat of both victims to the point the "words catch in their throat" is approximately five or six seconds. Fact.

Joffrey's wine is purple while Cressen's appears normal. Fact. Joffrey drinks mass quantities of it while Cressen has a half-swallow. Fact. Joffrey takes five or six times longer to succumb to the poison. Fact, and is in complete contradiction to the other two facts.

Smart people like Littlefinger make their own plans and use the tools at their disposal in any creative and imaginative way possible. Again, you are making up your own facts to suit your conclusion when you insist that he would never dream of using a poison in another way or that he wouldn't experiment with it on animals or even humans to see if it worked. He's a smart guy.

There is no way to poison Tyrion's or Joffrey's or anyone else's wine in a roomful of hundreds of people without running the risk of being seen, especially when the consequence of failure is the arrest and possible execution of nearly your entire family. Lady O would only take the risk if she knows exactly where she needs to be at the exact time and the poison can be deployed out of sight and with little or no chance of being discovered. She is simply not the fool you think she is.

19 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

snip

As I said, other than that day on the Trident we never see Joffrey drink at all, and he hardly appears drunk as the scene unfolds. But this is a tale that would never be known by Lady O or Littlefinger, so to use it as an excuse to say they would poison his wine because he is such a heavy drinker is ludicrous.

His wedding is the first time Joffrey has been shown to drink heavily, so there is no way anyone could plan on this to carry the assassination. Nor would they need to. All Joffrey has to do is take one sip of poisoned wine and he would be dead, and that will most surely come about during the feast, particularly at a formal event like the Wedding Pie. The problem is, Margy would be expected to drink first from the same chalice, so the chances of her getting poisoned is simply too great for Lady O to take the risk. If Joffrey had simply decided to rejoin his bride below the dais to accept Lord Buckler's toast that would be the end of Margaery. And there is simply no way you can argue that LF and LO could plan on that not happening.

And if he left the chalice at his place at the high table, right in front of Tywin and Cersei? Who's going to poison it then, Mace? If the chalice had been placed just a foot to the left or to the right, Garlan might not have been able to reach it at all.

Your problem is you are looking at how things turned out and assuming that was the plan all along. But there are simply too many unknown variables for this to be an effective plan. The dwarf joust has to rile up Joffrey and Tyrion. OK, fine. But then Joffrey has to name Tyrion cup-bearer. Tyrion has to have his hands all over the chalice. It has to sit in exactly the right spot just to even have a snowball's chance to get the poison in. Then they have to trust that Margy won't have to drink a toast. And finally, according to the prevailing theory, they have to make sure that this honking big chalice that they purposely gave to the king to poison himself isn't so full of wine that it dilutes the poison to the point of uselessness.

The wine only became poisoned when Joffrey barfed into the chalice.

19 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

snip

The whole pie ceremony is a formal event at a royal wedding. What mutton-head is going to have a bunch of pastry chefs cutting up pies when the king and queen are cutting the Wedding Pie for the entertainment of the guests?

And as I said, there is no plausible way that this would be going on without Tyrion seeing it. Sorry, but this whole idea is silly. By this logic, we can add any imaginary facts we like to any PoV just to suit our own theories. Ned didn't really die at the sept. He actually leaped off the pulpit into the crowd, and they grabbed some other wretch to chop his head off. Arya didn't see two men in the dragon room, it was five and they all wore sneakers and had chicken heads. Drogon didn't torch anyone in the arena. He just squatted and took a big dump and then a glamoured Euron carried Dany away...

You've had a good run with this but it's time to face the difficult fact: it was exactly as it appeared to Tyrion: cut, pigeons, applause, twirl and then from behind him, his pie is served.

Once again, for clarity. She knows it's Tyrion's because she is providing all the food and she is making the arrangements to ensure the head table gets its pies immediately after the cutting. She knows exactly which one is going to Tyrion and exactly where it will be at the exact moment she can poison it -- at the release of the pigeons. This is not rocket science, and it is certainly more plausible that waiting around all night hoping against hope that somehow, some way, the chalice will be right where it needs to be at the only time it has even the remotest chance of being poisoned.

Sorry, but the only holes are the ones you create with your imaginary facts.

19 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

snip

There is a huge difference between filling in the sequence of events in a logical fashion outside the purview of the POV and inventing entire scenarios that are supposedly taking place right in front of the person witnessing the scene. You don't have any evidence that Garlan reached over and poisoned the chalice either, but my explanation conforms to text, scientific fact and logical inference while yours requires an entire string of impossible coincidences just to get to the million-in-one shot for the actual poisoning.

Again, you are creating difficulties where none exist. The pies are all organized, one for each guest, possibly already in the hands of servants right behind their intended place. All she has to do is make sure the one servant holding the one pie right behind Tyrion is looking up for a split second as the pigeons rise and in goes the poison. The servant then merely waits patiently for the few seconds for the ceremony to end to serve the pie. No standing around gaping, no multiple servants. no chaos and pies flying this way and that. All that is in your own mind.

Yes, the poison most certainly has turned the wine "deep purple" at the end of the scene, but that is obviously the result of an extremely high dose, which Cressen's was not.

The wine appeared red on the dais because the remnants of poison and/or pie were only barfed into the chalice seconds before. It appeared deep purple at the end because it was just the dregs of the chalice at this point. If the wine is purple on Joffrey's chin, and then Joffrey tips the chalice up-end, chugs wine, wields the chalice one-handed while he is eating pie and taunting Tyrion, it stands to reason that both wine and poison are thoroughly shaken up. So how does it go from purple, to red and back to purple again? Please spare me the story of how it floats on top, then sinks to the bottom, then floats to the top again. Who, and why, would someone add more poison to the chalice after Joffrey had dropped it?

Pigeon pie is not chicken pot pie, all white meat and creamy sauce. Pigeon meat is dark and oily, and the filling of pigeon pie is almost purple to begin with. Google some pictures and you'll see what I mean. Lady O tucks the crystal into the filling, not the crust.

Nobody considers the pie as the possible poison source, so as far as I know, no one bothered to check the pie. Joffrey died from what appeared to be poison wine and Tyrion dumped the wine on the floor. There was no reason for anyone to inspect the pie, which, as I said, would naturally be dark and purplish to begin with.

Tyrion does not sift through the dregs to see what they contained. It looked like dark purple wine but he can't see all the way to the bottom. Who knows what was in there, but considering that Joffrey is unlikely to choke down (sorry) two complete handfuls of pie with one swallow of wine, then it is safe to conclude that his second attempt at drinking, which resulted in the vomit, contained some pie, and possibly even the crystal itself.