"Friend Zone" as Rape Culture and the Alpha\Beta Dichotomy

[Isis]

33 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

That's awful--where's that from--or did I miss it here?

Wasn't it one of Brock's parents, defending his actions as not being 'all that bad'. I recall the quote but not who said it.

[polishgenius]

9 minutes ago, Isis said:

Wasn't it one of Brock's parents, defending his actions as not being 'all that bad'. I recall the quote but not who said it.

Yeah, it was Brock Turner's dad. "a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action", although he wasn't referring to jail but somehow managing to be even worse by saying that the stress of the trial and guilty verdict was the steep price and therefore he shouldn't be sentenced to jail, but probation.

[Isis]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, it was Brock Turner's dad. "a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action", although he wasn't referring to jail but somehow managing to be even worse  by saying that the stress of the trial and guilty verdict was the steep price and therefore he shouldn't be sentenced to jail, but probation.

oh, yes. So many horrifying things were said at the time I think I blocked a lot of them out.

[DunderMifflin]

It's not uncommon for parents to lobby for lighter sentences for their child that's committed a horrible crime. I'd be open to chalk the fathers comments up to that rather than being a rape culture advocate

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

30 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

It's not uncommon for parents to lobby for lighter sentences for their child that's committed a horrible crime. I'd be open to chalk the fathers comments up to that rather than being a rape culture advocate

As though Brock Turner's Dad is the only one who's ever said something that horrible and seen nothing wrong with it?  The fact that, in this context, Turner's father thought such a comment was appropriate... is rape culture.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

26 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

As though Brock Turner's Dad is the only one who's ever said something that horrible and seen nothing wrong with it?  The fact that, in this context, Turner's father thought such a comment was appropriate... is rape culture.

Eh, have to side with DunderMifflin on this one. (That made me wince inside) We're talking about the man's child here. It's a pretty natural human reaction, methinks. Doesn't make his statement any less wrong, but it is certainly understandable under the circumstance.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think from a little bit of reading that Turner believed he had gotten the girls consent and didn't believe he was guilty, neither did his parents. 

And that comes back to my point about communication, especially when 2 people have been drinking. Its never as clear cut as people like to make out. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Eh, have to side with DunderMifflin on this one. (That made me wince inside) We're talking about the man's child here. It's a pretty natural human reaction, methinks. Doesn't make his statement any less wrong, but it is certainly understandable under the circumstance.

If a parent were to say of a murder victim... "He was only a homeless bum its not right for my child to spend their life in prison for killing someone who contributed nothing to society"... how would people react to that statement?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If a parent were to say of a murder victim... "He was only a homeless bum its not right for my child to spend their life in prison for killing someone who contributed nothing to society"... how would people react to that statement?

Again, I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's understandable. You have children, right? I can't imagine the circumstance where I would be willing to condemn one of my children to a serious legal conviction without some measure of protest. The evidence would have to be overwhelming, and even then I imagine that I would make excuses for my child's behavior. It's a primal human reaction. We protect our own. We aren't 100% rational when it comes to judging those we love. It's just not how we are wired.

[Datepalm]

That this was a man grasping at straws to advocate for his son doesn't negate the content of it. That he somehow managed to arrive at thinking that that comment would be helpful - would elicit sympathy, would normalize what happened, etc - is precisely, well, rape-culturey.

[Theda Baratheon]

6 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

That this was a man grasping at straws to advocate for his son doesn't negate the content of it. That he somehow managed to arrive at thinking that that comment would be helpful - would elicit sympathy, would normalize what happened, etc - is precisely, well, rape-culturey.

Yep. ..like how to be more cLear that this, hah. To desire to protect your own children is natural but the comment itself and the words used, that made him say it, feel like he should and should say it are all...pretty indicative of a culture of blame surrounding rape...

You can have a natural desire to defend your child and still say something that is harmful and part of a much larger, complicated problem...the former doesn't excuse the latter

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

That this was a man grasping at straws to advocate for his son doesn't negate the content of it. That he somehow managed to arrive at thinking that that comment would be helpful - would elicit sympathy, would normalize what happened, etc - is precisely, well, rape-culturey.

Exactly, the very fact that people are attempting to offer justification for Turner's father means that our culture will accept such statements as within existing norms.  That's disturbing.

[The Mance]

15 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

That this was a man grasping at straws to advocate for his son doesn't negate the content of it. That he somehow managed to arrive at thinking that that comment would be helpful - would elicit sympathy, would normalize what happened, etc - is precisely, well, rape-culturey.

Right.  Its not that the Dad was defending his son, but the particular direction he went in his son's defense.  He could, instead, have plead for leniency by blaming himself for his son's lack of moral compass, or appreciation for norms of consent.   Same desperate pleading, way less rapey.

[Theda Baratheon]

Just now, The Mance said:

Right.  Its not that the Dad was defending his son, but the particular direction he went in his son's defense.  He could, instead, have plead for leniency by blaming himself for his son's lack of moral compass, or appreciation for norms of consent.   Same desperate pleading, way less rapey.

Yep. There is any number of ways he could have spoke for his son and not added to a culture of blame and dismissiveness when it comes to rape. "20 minutes of action" the fathers in this thread are telling me they'd say something like this if their son raped someone? That's chilling...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

17 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

That this was a man grasping at straws to advocate for his son doesn't negate the content of it. That he somehow managed to arrive at thinking that that comment would be helpful - would elicit sympathy, would normalize what happened, etc - is precisely, well, rape-culturey.

Clearing quote.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

6 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yep. There is any number of ways he could have spoke for his son and not added to a culture of blame and dismissiveness when it comes to rape. "20 minutes of action" the fathers in this thread are telling me they'd say something like this if their son raped someone? That's chilling...

If you were to believe Brock's version of events ( which I don't as they seem pretty shaky with the truth) then you'd think he was basically innocent and that consent was given. I think it's understandable that his father believes him to be innocent of rape , that it was just two drunk people having fun. In that context his comment makes sense.

The problem is the jury don't see things like that, nor do most other people.

Howver does this mean it's all part of 'rape culture' or is it just a father who thinks his son is innocent and is trying to defend him.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

44 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

That this was a man grasping at straws to advocate for his son doesn't negate the content of it. That he somehow managed to arrive at thinking that that comment would be helpful - would elicit sympathy, would normalize what happened, etc - is precisely, well, rape-culturey.

I'm going to guess that his reaction was more emotional than logical. 

 

33 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yep. ..like how to be more cLear that this, hah. To desire to protect your own children is natural but the comment itself and the words used, that made him say it, feel like he should and should say it are all...pretty indicative of a culture of blame surrounding rape...

You can have a natural desire to defend your child and still say something that is harmful and part of a much larger, complicated problem...the former doesn't excuse the latter

 Again, I'm not suggesting that the statement is excusable, I'm saying it's understandable given the circumstance. The statement itself should be called out as an example of Rape Culture, but one can give the guy some small measure of understanding given the likely empathy he's feeling for his child. There's probably some measure of shame and disbelief tied up in it as well. 

The real outrage here should be reserved for the fucking judge. 

[DunderMifflin]

44 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If a parent were to say of a murder victim... "He was only a homeless bum its not right for my child to spend their life in prison for killing someone who contributed nothing to society"... how would people react to that statement?

I don't know if this exact phrase has been uttered but there are more than plenty of murder cases where there are attempts to downplay the severity/guilt of the murderer. If that makes it a culture then every single crime one could possibly commit has its own culture

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I don't know if this exact phrase has been uttered but there are more than plenty of murder cases where there are attempts to downplay the severity/guilt of the murderer. If that makes it a culture then every single crime one could possibly commit has its own culture

DM 

The point is that a parent denegrating the victim in the context of a murder is less acceptable than dengrating the victim of a rape.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

DM 

The point is that a parent denegrating the victim in the context of a murder is less acceptable than dengrating the victim of a rape.

As well it should be. What greater crime is there than murder? To end someone's very existence? That's not to say that denigrating a rape victim is acceptable, it's disgusting, but you can't honestly be making the assertion that Rape and Murder are on equal footing in terms of moral extremity.