Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

[Lord Varys]

The aspect of Illyrio's back story that is most likely bullshit is the part about him not knowing why Varys chose him of all people to work with. He must know that because that is most likely the deciding factor in establishing their long partnership. You don't work with a guy whose core motivation you don't know, especially not in the business Varys and Illyrio are working in.

And imagine it has to do with who both Varys and Illyrio actually are - their heritage, their origins, their losses. There is a reason why Daemon Blackfyre got seven sons and at least two daughters. That way there are so many branches of House Blackfyre around that the Iron Throne could easily enough have missed two ugly black snakes descended through the female line. They may be cousins.

I believe Illyrio was a poor bravo when he met Varys but I also expect that Illyrio had had a family who treated him poorly. Say, his mother remarried after his father died while he was an infant and his stepfather brought some children of his own into the family who eventually dumped Illyrio on the streets, taking whatever fortune his mother and father had left him for themselves.

Illyrio might not even have known who exactly he was ancestry-wise. If he is the great-great-grandson of Aegor Rivers and Calla Blackfyre through the female line he might not even have known that he had royal blood (of sorts) until Varys told him. He is very good at uncovering family secrets.

The chances that Illyrio actually fakes being a poor bravo of the (apparently) not exactly very noble family of Mopatis is actually not very likely. If his Blackfyre ancestry and connection to the Golden Company were known to the general public Viserys, Dany, Robert, and Barristan would have known. Aerys II would have known, and he wouldn't have hired Varys in the first place.

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

One problem with the "statue is Aegon" idea is that it means that the sculptor had to have seen Aegon relatively recently if it's Aegon as a 15/16-yr old. So what, they poleboated upriver near Pentos, Aegon visits Pentos, poses for a statue - however long that takes - and then heads back to the riverboat where he waits for Tyrion?

I think if it's a clue regarding Aegon, it's a clue towards Illyrio's fatherhood of same. But I rather think that Illyrio's backstory is bullshit.

There is actually no reason to believe Aegon and his gang spent the entirety of Aegon's childhood and youth on the Rhoyne. What on earth would have been the point of that? They would have traveled the Free Cities or spent a lot of time on one of Illyrio's estates in the Flatlands.

[The Fattest Leech]

22 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

- Tyrion II, ADWD

How is it Illyrio? You were a very poor young selling your sword to eat but nonetheless you were able to commission a fine artwork from an (apparently) famous artist?

- Tyrion I, ADWD

 

 

 

Just a small point on the statue being painted. When I read this in the book, I was reminded of an architectural history class I had to take back in the dinosaur age that showed us how gaudy decor in antiquity actually was in many, not all, cases. The beautiful marble statues we have today are actually "naked" compared to how they were supposed to look. I found a good article that gives a glimpse of what I am referring to.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5616498/ultraviolet-light-reveals-how-ancient-greek-statues-really-looked

Carry on

[rotting sea cow]

Thanks to all who have contributed here. So, it seems that Illyrio Zoolander (LOL) is the most viable explanation to this contradiction.

I think it's worth to bring back here Varys story, which I believe it's true

Quote

This pause was longer than the one before, and when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow.  "I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing.

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

"The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

- Tyrion X, ACOK

At some point, Varys went to Pentos where he met Illyrio, according to the later.

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

52 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just a small point on the statue being painted. When I read this in the book, I was reminded of an architectural history class I had to take back in the dinosaur age that showed us how gaudy decor in antiquity actually was in many, not all, cases. The beautiful marble statues we have today are actually "naked" compared to how they were supposed to look. I found a good article that gives a glimpse of what I am referring to.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5616498/ultraviolet-light-reveals-how-ancient-greek-statues-really-looked

Carry on

Very interesting, I had no idea.

I wonder how long it takes the painting to wash out when exposed to the elements as in the case of Illyrio statue.

[Lollygag]

48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just a small point on the statue being painted. When I read this in the book, I was reminded of an architectural history class I had to take back in the dinosaur age that showed us how gaudy decor in antiquity actually was in many, not all, cases. The beautiful marble statues we have today are actually "naked" compared to how they were supposed to look. I found a good article that gives a glimpse of what I am referring to.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5616498/ultraviolet-light-reveals-how-ancient-greek-statues-really-looked

Carry on

The painted Greek statues were what I pictured when I first read that. Illyrio gained a whole new dimension of evil for me. He'll take something elegant and beautiful and defile it/make it tragic for selfish ends.

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys II would have known, and he wouldn't have hired Varys in the first place.

Is there any indication about who actually recommended Varys to Aerys?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if this is actually a statue of young Griff given Illyrio's sentimentality when Tyrion is handed off to Duckfield.  The chest of boy's clothing could imply that fAegon lived at Illyrion's manse for a while.  The six cherry trees standing sentinel around the statue corresponding to his six guardians: Connington, Haldon Halfmaester, Septa Lemore, Duckfield, Ysilla and Yandry.  

If this is Illyrio's keepsake of fAegon; he commissioned the statue himself and tells people its a statue of himself, rather than fAegon.

The symbolism of the cherry tree is interesting;

 

 

If the statue is of Young Griff that throws things off too much. He would have to have posed for it within the last 3-5 years, and YG has been busy during that time frame learning how to be a king.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

...George has a real fetish for statues and game pieces in most of his stories and this probably comes from his real world love of chess and his own collection and fascination with miniatures.

I think they prefer to be called "little people" these days

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is actually no reason to believe Aegon and his gang spent the entirety of Aegon's childhood and youth on the Rhoyne. What on earth would have been the point of that? They would have traveled the Free Cities or spent a lot of time on one of Illyrio's estates in the Flatlands.

Didn't say they did, just said that, for the statue to be of Aegon, Aegon had to have spent some time with Illyrio's sculptor quite recently

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

At some point, Varys went to Pentos where he met Illyrio, according to the later.

And yet Varys was a boy whore from Lys, according to Pycelle. Who's telling the truth?

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If the statue is of Young Griff that throws things off too much. He would have to have posed for it within the last 3-5 years, and YG has been busy during that time frame learning how to be a king.

An artist doesn't need him to pose.  All they need is a youth of the same body type so that the statue is representative of Aegon rather than an exact replica.   Enough to satisfy Illyrio anyway.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

An artist doesn't need him to pose.  All they need is a youth of the same body type so that the statue is representative of Aegon rather than an exact replica.   Enough to satisfy Illyrio anyway.

Okay. Illyrio probably isn't as picky as I am. If I commissioned a likeness of someone, I'd want it to be a likeness of them, not of someone who looked kind of like them.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Is there any indication about who actually recommended Varys to Aerys?

No. But the point I was making is that it would be known by people in general, especially Dany and Viserys but also Selmy and Robert and Aerys II that Illyrio Mopatis was a Blackfyre descendant if there were people in Pentos who knew about that. The idea that a woman named Blackfyre (a daughter or sister of Maelys or Daemon (IV), for instance) could have married into such a family without anybody remembering that makes no sense at all. But there is a chance that people had no idea if Illyrio's mother was just the daughter of a daughter of a daughter of Calla Blackfyre's daughter by Aegor Rivers.

If Varys was the child of a Blackfyre woman, too, this would also have to be a very important secret. Aerys II would never have hired a man with such a background, not even a man with connections to the Seven Kingdoms. The whole point of employing a man from Essos was to have a neutral servant not somebody entangled in court politics.

But still the question how Aerys II got convinced to hire Varys is still a huge question mark. If he is a Targaryen bastard he could have been Aerys' cousin or even half-brother (a bastard of Jaehaerys II conceived after the guy went to a pleasure trip to Lys). Aerys might have been willing to trust such a person. Or not. It is really difficult to say. Varys is very knowledgeable about Targaryen secrets like Maegor's goals and plans for his castle and other historical anecdotes (like the fate of Grand Maester Gerardys).

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

And yet Varys was a boy whore from Lys, according to Pycelle. Who's telling the truth?

No, Pycelle claims was born a slave in Lys. There is no contradiction to all this. Varys could have been born a slave in Lys, sailed around with this mummer troupe as a slave boy (assuming it wasn't a Westerosi enterprise which is very likely, actually). Then he was castrated in Myr, became a prince of thieves there but had to run away once his peers found out he was a eunuch. He went to Pentos where he met Illyrio.

Chances are that Varys did not change much of his public origin story. Lies are dangerous and good liars use as few as they have to.

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Okay. Illyrio probably isn't as picky as I am. If I commissioned a likeness of someone, I'd want it to be a likeness of them, not of someone who looked kind of like them.

More to the point, what's the purpose of including it in a work of fiction if it's going to turn out that convoluted? Yes, it's supposed to be Aegon, but no, it's not actually Aegon, but some random person with the same body type, but yes, it is supposed to be foreshadowing some shit, don't worry about the details...

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But still the question how Aerys II got convinced to hire Varys is still a huge question mark. If he is a Targaryen bastard he could have been Aerys' cousin or even half-brother (a bastard of Jaehaerys II conceived after the guy went to a pleasure trip to Lys). Aerys might have been willing to trust such a person. Or not. It is really difficult to say. Varys is very knowledgeable about Targaryen secrets like Maegor's goals and plans for his castle and other historical anecdotes (like the fate of Grand Maester Gerardys).

My new pet theory is that Varys's real name is Rugen, and his job in the black cells predates his assumption of the Varys identity; he used his knowledge of the secrets of the Red Keep to subtly nudge Aerys in the direction of hiring the mysterious foreigner "Varys".

Of course, that raises more questions that it answers, and is completely mental besides... nonetheless, I think it's pretty tasty.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Okay. Illyrio probably isn't as picky as I am. If I commissioned a likeness of someone, I'd want it to be a likeness of them, not of someone who looked kind of like them.

That might give too much away.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That might give too much away.

Luckily I'm not hiding any princes nearby.

[Lollygag]

Stone sculptors rely heavily on sketches due to the length of time it takes to carve. Aegon need only be spared to pose for a few days. If that particular sculptor was very experienced with the human form, and worked well from sketches alone without needing periodic reference to Aegon beyond the original sketches (or if Illyrio was forgiving on exactness), then it's very doable.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Stone sculptors rely heavily on sketches due to the length of time it takes to carve. Aegon need only be spared to pose for a few days. If that particular sculptor was very experienced with the human form, and worked well from sketches alone without needing periodic reference to Aegon beyond the original sketches (or if Illyrio was forgiving on exactness), then it's very doable.

Illyrio could afford the best sculptor.

[Lollygag]

I've been thinking on how little visual art is in the series compared to its prominence in rl history. No one in Westeros paints, because it completely works against the plot. If Robert had a hall of family portraits in the Red Keep topped of with the gold Joff/Myrcella/Tommen, that would have been exposed much more quickly. LF relies on no one recognizing Sansa's resemblance to Cat because they're not expecting to see a resemblance to Cat in LF's bastard. If Lysa had a portrait of Cat about, that wouldn't work out. A number of characters recall that they don't remember how someone looks anymore due to the passage of time.

There are singers' truths, but the visual arts are also revelations, or would be if GRRM had allowed it. The tapastries exposed the bastardy of Cersei's children, LF's tapestries seem to be about...something important. If the statue is truly Aegon, then the visual arts should be looked to for the possibility of exposing hidden truths.