Illyrio & Varys: untruths and exaggerations

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've been thinking on how little visual art is in the series compared to its prominence in rl history. No one in Westeros paints, because it completely works against the plot. If Robert had a hall of family portraits in the Red Keep topped of with the gold Joff/Myrcella/Tommen, that would have been exposed much more quickly. LF relies on no one recognizing Sansa's resemblance to Cat because they're not expecting to see a resemblance to Cat in LF's bastard. If Lysa had a portrait of Cat about, that wouldn't work out. A number of characters recall that they don't remember how someone looks anymore due to the passage of time.

There are singers' truths, but the visual arts are also revelations, or would be if GRRM had allowed it. The tapastries exposed the bastardy of Cersei's children, LF's tapestries seem to be about...something important. If the statue is truly Aegon, then the visual arts should be looked to for the possibility of exposing hidden truths.

Paging @M_Tootles...

[M_Tootles]

Ha. Hey @Lollygag you should read this: https://asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com/2017/03/23/recognition-and-the-seeming-difficulty-thereof-in-asoiaf-deluxe-expanded-edition/

[bent branch]

37 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've been thinking on how little visual art is in the series compared to its prominence in rl history. No one in Westeros paints, because it completely works against the plot. If Robert had a hall of family portraits in the Red Keep topped of with the gold Joff/Myrcella/Tommen, that would have been exposed much more quickly. LF relies on no one recognizing Sansa's resemblance to Cat because they're not expecting to see a resemblance to Cat in LF's bastard. If Lysa had a portrait of Cat about, that wouldn't work out. A number of characters recall that they don't remember how someone looks anymore due to the passage of time.

There are singers' truths, but the visual arts are also revelations, or would be if GRRM had allowed it. The tapastries exposed the bastardy of Cersei's children, LF's tapestries seem to be about...something important. If the statue is truly Aegon, then the visual arts should be looked to for the possibility of exposing hidden truths.

Someone, some time ago, pointed out that LF tapestries have all ready been explained in text. LF put them up when meeting with the Lord Declarant to imply that he had the backing of the throne. Sansa makes note of the Lords Declarant making note of them.

[bent branch]

8 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

(FIFY.)

Yeah, maybe, but maybe not. For me, I don't know why we'd ever trust anything that comes out of their mouths. But then again, this is fiction, and having them flat-out lie might be construed by some as the author being unfair.

Thank you, sweetie, but I didn't need that fixing. I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

Despite your doubt, there is no reason to question their backstory. There is nothing in the novels to contradict it. GRRM has said multiple times that he is not a liar. If he wanted people to doubt Varys and Illyrio's backstories he would have given us multiple, conflicting stories to choose from. The biggest problem with people insisting that Varys and Illyrio's backstory is a lie is that they are then left with NO backstory. At this stage in the story GRRM wouldn't leave such a large hole. From here on any information we get will be supplementary, not contradictory.

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

And yet Varys was a boy whore from Lys, according to Pycelle. Who's telling the truth?

Quote? I believe Pycelle said Varys was born a slave in Lys. No other part of the backstory contradicts this. And why the fuck would you believe Pycelle? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Pycelle has a vast spy network in Essos. lol

[Davjos]

17 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Maybe he made it after he was rich to show people, "I was a sexy badass when I was young."

Sounds reasonable. I'd do that if I was that rich. 

[bent branch]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if this is actually a statue of young Griff given Illyrio's sentimentality when Tyrion is handed off to Duckfield.  The chest of boy's clothing could imply that fAegon lived at Illyrion's manse for a while.  The six cherry trees standing sentinel around the statue corresponding to his six guardians: Connington, Haldon Halfmaester, Septa Lemore, Duckfield, Ysilla and Yandry.  

If this is Illyrio's keepsake of fAegon; he commissioned the statue himself and tells people its a statue of himself, rather than fAegon.

The symbolism of the cherry tree is interesting;

 

 

The clothing is not a mystery. The clothes belonged to Aegon. In fact, those same clothes were sent along with Tyrion to the Shy Maid. They are the clothes Tyrion and Lemore use to make him motley. The clothes were used as foreshadowing, once we are introduced to Aegon their purpose was served.

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Despite your doubt, there is no reason to question their backstory. There is nothing in the novels to contradict it. GRRM has said multiple times that he is not a liar. If he wanted people to doubt Varys and Illyrio's backstories he would have given us multiple, conflicting stories to choose from. 

 

There's all kinds of reasons to question their backstory if you understand how mysteries and dramatic narratives involving mysteries generally function. It's cool that you think we only have permission to question things if there are multiple options presented, but that's a "common sense" heuristic of your own invention, and I can't adduce a single reason to suppose it's necessarily true.

 

 

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

The clothing is not a mystery. The clothes belonged to Aegon. In fact, those same clothes were sent along with Tyrion to the Shy Maid. They are the clothes Tyrion and Lemore use to make him motley. The clothes were used as foreshadowing, once we are introduced to Aegon their purpose was served.

 

Oh. The Redwyne colors just mean nothing then. Purpose served.  Cool.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I've been thinking on how little visual art is in the series compared to its prominence in rl history. No one in Westeros paints, because it completely works against the plot. If Robert had a hall of family portraits in the Red Keep topped of with the gold Joff/Myrcella/Tommen, that would have been exposed much more quickly. LF relies on no one recognizing Sansa's resemblance to Cat because they're not expecting to see a resemblance to Cat in LF's bastard. If Lysa had a portrait of Cat about, that wouldn't work out. A number of characters recall that they don't remember how someone looks anymore due to the passage of time.

There are singers' truths, but the visual arts are also revelations, or would be if GRRM had allowed it. The tapastries exposed the bastardy of Cersei's children, LF's tapestries seem to be about...something important. If the statue is truly Aegon, then the visual arts should be looked to for the possibility of exposing hidden truths.

You're absolutely right.  There is very little in way of portraiture. Even Lyanna's statue doesn't quite look like her according to Robert. Those missing tapestries have portraits of the Targaryens. But that's it.  Not even the book of lineages has any portraits. 

[leonardof]

21 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Maybe he made it after he was rich to show people, "I was a sexy badass when I was young."

When exactly did Illyrio become rich? In ASOIAF, sixteen-year-olds are leading armies and all. Maybe he and Varys started working together when they were children (maybe nine years old) and by the age of sixteen Illyrion was already rich. Or at least well enough to have a place where he could put the statue after extort the artist to sculpt it.

[bent branch]

5 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

 

There's all kinds of reasons to question their backstory if you understand how mysteries and dramatic narratives involving mysteries generally function. It's cool that you think we only have permission to question things if there are multiple options presented, but that's a "common sense" heuristic of your own invention, and I can't adduce a single reason to suppose it's necessarily true.

 

 

 

Oh. The Redwyne colors just mean nothing then. Purpose served.  Cool.

I do understand how narrative works and if GRRM was going to give V&I a substantially different backstory he would have laid the groundwork by now. The only thing we will see from this point on is "the rest of the story" type material.

Which of these colors is the Redwyne colors?

Quote

His clothing was still soaked from his involuntary swim, clinging to his arms and legs uncomfortably. Whilst Young Griff went off with Septa Lemore to be instructed in the mysteries of the Faith, Tyrion stripped off the wet clothes and donned dry ones. Duck had a good guffaw when he emerged on deck again. He could not blame him. Dressed as he was, he made a comic sight. His doublet was divided down the middle; the left side was purple velvet with bronze studs; the right, yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns. His breeches were similarly split; the right leg was solid green, the left leg striped in red and white. One of Illyrio's chests had been packed with a child's clothing, musty but well made. Septa Lemore had split each garment apart, then sewn them back together, joining half of this to half of that to fashion a crude motley. Griff had even insisted that Tyrion help with the cutting and sewing. No doubt he meant for it to be humbling, but Tyrion enjoyed the needlework. Lemore was always pleasant company, despite her penchant for scolding him whenever he said something rude about the gods. If Griff wants to cast me as the fool, I'll play the game. Somewhere, he knew, Lord Tywin Lannister was horrified, and that took the sting from it. ADWD - Chapter 14

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

11 hours ago, bent branch said:

Quote? I believe Pycelle said Varys was born a slave in Lys. No other part of the backstory contradicts this. And why the fuck would you believe Pycelle? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Pycelle has a vast spy network in Essos. lol

Well, he has the benefit of the Citadel's eyes and ears. Plus, with the exception of Illyrio, he's known Varys the longest: he was Grand Maester when Aerys hired him, so he might know a thing or two.

11 hours ago, bent branch said:

Someone, some time ago, pointed out that LF tapestries have all ready been explained in text. LF put them up when meeting with the Lord Declarant to imply that he had the backing of the throne. Sansa makes note of the Lords Declarant making note of them.

Doesn't he give them to Nestor Royce in the Alayne TWOW chapter?

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

You're absolutely right.  There is very little in way of portraiture. Even Lyanna's statue doesn't quite look like her according to Robert. Those missing tapestries have portraits of the Targaryens. But that's it.  Not even the book of lineages has any portraits. 

Littlefinger's tapestries are Baratheon tapestries, not Targaryen.

9 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Oh. The Redwyne colors just mean nothing then. Purpose served.  Cool.

Nice catch:

Quote

As he bathed, the girl washed his feet, scrubbed his back, and brushed his hair. Afterward she rubbed sweet-smelling ointment into his calves to ease the aches, and dressed him once again in boy's clothing, a musty pair of burgundy breeches and a blue velvet doublet lined with cloth-of-gold.

-- Tyrion I, ADWD

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

I do understand how narrative works and if GRRM was going to give V&I a substantially different backstory he would have laid the groundwork by now. The only thing we will see from this point on is "the rest of the story" type material.

I said the same thing about introducing Aegon in book 5: it's too late for that reveal. But GRRM still did it.

Fact is, we don't really know what he would've done by now, or what it's too late for him to do, etc, because we don't actually know how much story there is left to go. Oh sure, he says two more books, but what does he know? And how long will those books be? And will those books move as fast as ASOS or as slow as AFFC?

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Littlefinger's tapestries are Baratheon tapestries, not Targaryen.

I have no idea which tapestries LF has in his possession; but I think these are the only tapestries worth having for someone as politically motivated as LF:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

"Lord Lancel hopes one day to cover them with hangings," said Ottomore. "Scenes of piety and devotion."

Piety and devotion. It was all he could do not to laugh. The walls had been bare on his first visit too. Tyrion had pointed out the squares of darker stone where tapestries had once hung. Ser Raymun could remove the hangings, but not the marks they'd left. Later, the Imp had slipped a handful of stags to one of Darry's serving men for the key to the cellar where the missing tapestries were hidden. He showed them to Jaime by the light of a candle, grinning; woven portraits of all the Targaryen kings, from the first Aegon to the second Aenys. "If I tell Robert, mayhaps he'll make me Lord of Darry," the dwarf said, chortling.

 

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just now, LynnS said:

I have no idea which tapestries LF has in his possession; but I think these are the only tapestries worth having for someone as politically motivated as LF:

Nah, they're Baratheon tapestries that Cersei took down after Robert died. He gifts them to Nestor Royce, and as someone said, it makes LF look like he's got the throne's backing.

Ceebs finding the quote but.

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Nah, they're Baratheon tapestries that Cersei took down after Robert died. He gifts them to Nestor Royce, and as someone said, it makes LF look like he's got the throne's backing.

Ceebs finding the quote but.

Well, I don't know what LF has in his possession but it seems to me that portraits of Targaryens could be useful if they can be used to back up  a claim to the throne by any existing Targaryens.  Someone like LF with designs on the throne for himself; might want to make sure that such a thing remains lost.   

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, I don't know what LF has in his possession but it seems to me that portraits of Targaryens could be useful if they can be used to back up  a claim to the throne by any existing Targaryens.  Someone like LF with designs on the throne for himself; might want to make sure that such a thing remains lost.   

Yeah, mebbe. I don't doubt that Darry's Targaryen tapestries might make another appearance.

[Prof. Cecily]

18 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Who says Illyrio commissioned that sculpture? Maybe it was the other way around: the sculptor hired the dirt-poor kid as model. A few years later, an older, richer Illyrio tracked down the sculpture and bought it.

That's what I understand.

Mary Renault, in her novel The Last of the Wine,uses this same devise, but fleshed out to move along her narrative.

[Prof. Cecily]

13 hours ago, bent branch said:

Someone, some time ago, pointed out that LF tapestries have all ready been explained in text. LF put them up when meeting with the Lord Declarant to imply that he had the backing of the throne. Sansa makes note of the Lords Declarant making note of them.

You can count on LF to know how to dress a stage and create impressions.

Renly's 'ghost' comes to mind.

 

here's a link to an earlier discussion here on the subject, back in 2014

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/120513-what-is-going-on-with-littlefingers-tapestries/

And yet another from 2012

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/77295-lf-requests-roberts-tapestries/

 

[rotting sea cow]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But still the question how Aerys II got convinced to hire Varys is still a huge question mark.

I'd be willing to speculate that Aerys "got convinced" by Varys/Illyrio. They intentionally planted rumors about Varys to "anxious king".

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he is a Targaryen bastard he could have been Aerys' cousin or even half-brother (a bastard of Jaehaerys II conceived after the guy went to a pleasure trip to Lys). Aerys might have been willing to trust such a person. Or not. It is really difficult to say. Varys is very knowledgeable about Targaryen secrets like Maegor's goals and plans for his castle and other historical anecdotes (like the fate of Grand Maester Gerardys).

The problem here, is how much Varys does know about his origins if we trust the backstory he told Tyrion, being a boy in a mummer show, etc. Of course he could have omitted something, without needing to lie.

Actually, why that wizard chose Varys among thousands of stray children, is a hint that he is 'different' in a particular way.

[M_Tootles]

9 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

18 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Oh. The Redwyne colors just mean nothing then. Purpose served.  Cool.

Nice catch:

Now if you've read part 3 of mega-tinfoil, which I think you have, you know what they're pointing to.

Queen of Thorns and Maegor the Kingsguard, sitting in a tree, havin' them a Vaerys and a Saera bay-bee.