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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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16 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Returning to Cersei's death as the Holy Shit moment, IMHO it was always going to be Jaime or Tyrion who killed her. I always knew Jaime was the younger brother, but I have also seen discussions that argue that High Valyrian does not account for gender.  So Little Brother could be Arya.  It's just that I do not think Cersei's death is the Holy Shit moment but rather be a moment of relief for us viewers who are sick of her.

The bolded statement of yours is a common misconception regarding that issue. Here Maester Aemon is speaking in the passage from A Feast for Crows that generated that misunderstanding:

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

From the bolded language in this passage, it is clear that the issue is that DRAGONS have no gender -- not that High Valyrian does not account for gender. The implication is that the original High Valyrian prophecy was about the "Dragon" that was promised, and "Dragon" -- clearly being used as a metaphor for a human being -- was translated to mean "prince" when it could just as easily mean "princess" given that a dragon has no gender.

But we have been told that valonqar is High Valyrian for younger brother (see A Feast for Crows, Cersei IX). There is no reason to believe that valonqar really means younger sibling or that High Valyarian never distinguishes gender. While dragons have no gender, presumably, High Valyrian, like virtually every language ever spoken (real or invented) likely distinguishes for gender.

In addition, here is the relevant part of the prophecy which was not given in High Valyrian (other than use of the word "valonqar"):

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Notice the use of the pronoun "his" when maggy the frog tells the prophecy. She is speaking in the "common tongue" (again, other than the use of the word "valonqar") which certainly has gender and uses the pronoun "he" to describe Cersei's killer. So the books make the issue fairly unambiguous that Cersei will be killed by a younger brother -- which I think only makes sense as Cersei's younger brother (although I understand the arguments to the contrary that it could be anyone's younger brother, but I am not convinced by these arguments). Cersei is convince that Tyrion is her killer, which means that there really is only one plausible candidate -- Jaime (her "other" younger brother).

Whether the show will be true to the books in this regard, I cannot be certain, but Jaime leaving WF and heading toward KL to deal with the situation seems to be fairly strong foreshadowing in this direction.

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The show seems to be setting up Jamie killing Cersei.

It also may be that a lot of us were wrong to think Cersei goes down in Winds, Euron is clearly end game.  I doubt that Euron hooks up with Arianne, so it very well may be that Aegon and Arianne are dispatched by Cersei and Euron, whose got the goods to kill/bind a dragon already in hand, and that the show cut out a mid-tale mini story that doesn't, in the end, have any great ramifications.

Also, if Euron will be able to kill/control a dragon that would seem to also put him end-game, as someone who will be in play after the war against the Others.   Maybe. 

 

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What's the point of R +L = J now? At least in the book, there is possibly a "magical" reason for R and L's union, but since D and D care very little about the magical aspects of the show I'm wondering what the point is since it seems very unlikely that Jon will be King at the end.

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“3 fires you must light”, “the pale mare”... Some things do make sense!

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 5:28 AM, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

What's the point of R +L = J now? At least in the book, there is possibly a "magical" reason for R and L's union, but since D and D care very little about the magical aspects of the show I'm wondering what the point is since it seems very unlikely that Jon will be King at the end.

In the show, we will wait to see till next episode if it pays out differently (I doubt it). Up until now, it seems maybe for the purpose of being the true heir, and recognizing that heritage doesn't and shouldn't matter and refusing to rule if you are not able to. Maybe also a tool to kill of the Targaryen family once and for all. The Targaryens are obsesed with tPtwP, besides the fact, that this prophecy maybe isn't what they want it to be. Who is to say, it means something good for their family? A better explanation seems to be, dealing with both enemies, Ice and Fire. A neutralising force. Best explanation: Because GRRM introduced him in the books. That's it. 

In the books: LOL. What books? :P

Edited by T and A

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So... Sansa and Tyrion end up ruling, although not exactly the way I saw it. And Jon is likely to be king as well... the King beyond the wall. I am actually ok with the conclusion of the series. Oh, and Jon's real name must be Aemon Targaryen.

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37 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

So... Sansa and Tyrion end up ruling, although not exactly the way I saw it. And Jon is likely to be king as well... the King beyond the wall. I am actually ok with the conclusion of the series. Oh, and Jon's real name must be Aemon Targaryen.

Agreed.  I think the show did the endings accurately.  And of course Jon is not named Aegon, so Aemon is most likely.  The only one I'm suspect of in terms of endings is Jon's.  I think going off beyond  the wall with Ghost and Tormund is a little too..on the nose.  Still think he'll die if the books are ever published.

35 minutes ago, DanaKz said:

Sorry, what does A+J=T means? 

It means Adulation plus Joy equals Torment, ultimately.  But that theory was struck down and medicated years ago.

If you're seriously asking, it's Aerys Targaryen + Joanna Lannister = Tyrion Lannister.  It was and is a very popular theory around here, until now, since we all know it was wrong.  Except those that won't accept that.

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2 hours ago, DMC said:

If you're seriously asking, it's Aerys Targaryen + Joanna Lannister = Tyrion Lannister.  It was and is a very popular theory around here, until now, since we all know it was wrong.  Except those that won't accept that.

Ah. Thanks. 

I've heard about this theory but never took it seriously, probably that's why I didn't recognize it. 

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17 hours ago, DanaKz said:

Sorry, what does A+J=T means? 

Book theory with tons of evidence to back it. We can share some threads with all the info.

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So my thoughts after the worst show ever are this.

D&D made jon kill Dany aka the very worst bad guy on the show. For the books this means Jon will kill the White Walkers. If Dany dies in the books it wont be anything like this. I bet she burns meereen or volantis but not KL. 

The only things that translate from book to show will be hard to decipher, IMO very little of Seasons 6-8 will actually be in the books.

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The good news is that Jon may well end up with Val after all. “She would be worthy of a king”... Beyond the Wall.

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13 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

The good news is that Jon may well end up with Val after all. “She would be worthy of a king”... Beyond the Wall.

I kinda want him to die - think both him and Dany are meant as tragic characters - but gotta admit that'd be pretty cool.  I just don't see any reasoning why the NW would still exist, and I don't think Martin would either.  "And now his watch is ended" is not exactly subtle foreshadowing and set up.  Wish the show did something with that and Edd in the third episode.  So, if Jon does end up beyond the wall, I think it's gotta be via a different avenue.

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On 5/21/2019 at 1:31 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So my thoughts after the worst show ever are this.

 

As soon as someone writes "worst ... ever" on the internet, you know this will be some quality post.

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:31 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So my thoughts after the worst show ever are this.

Come on. It's very far from that, let's not be ridiculous.

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On 5/23/2019 at 9:10 PM, KingMudd said:

Come on. It's very far from that, let's not be ridiculous.

For the money spent/production value of this show. it is easily the worst finale ever, episodes of Robot Chicken are 1000x better. GOT final Season had terrible writing, no plot, no sense at all. #worstshowever

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On 5/20/2019 at 8:11 AM, DMC said:

It was and is a very popular theory around here, until now, since we all know it was wrong.  Except those that won't accept that.

I simply love the forum of joy.:rofl:

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47 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

For the money spent/production value of this show. it is easily the worst finale ever, episodes of Robot Chicken are 1000x better. GOT final Season had terrible writing, no plot, no sense at all. #worstshowever

I disagree. I have seen worse finales and shows that are a hell of a lot worse that Game of Thrones.

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16 hours ago, KingMudd said:

I disagree. I have seen worse finales and shows that are a hell of a lot worse that Game of Thrones.

Whenever you read on the internet "worst...ever", stop reading further. It is just a brainfart, with no meaning or thoughts behind, whatsoever. The ending was bad, no doubt about it. But to state that it was the WORST EVER, just states the very limited mind of someone, or, it states that that person simply has never seen anything else before, and it is his first show to actually watch.

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