My thoughts on the Tyrion Targaryen Theory

[Shmedricko]

3 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Didn't Aerys "take liberties" at the bedding on Tywin and Joanna'a wedding night? Which could make him the twins' father?

That occurred in 263 AC. Cersei and Jaime weren't born until 3 years later, in 266 AC.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Oh! OK. There goes that theory. Thanks for the info!

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Oh! OK. There goes that theory. Thanks for the info!

That and Aerys would have had to copulate with Joanna who was ostensibly being carried with or to Tywin by the various males of the court, who would include Barry and other eyewitnesses.

[Newstar]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That and Aerys would have had to copulate with Joanna who was ostensibly being carried with or to Tywin by the various males of the court, who would include Barry and other eyewitnesses.

LOL, that would take some doing.

As pointless as I think a reveal of A+J=T would be (unless dragonblood is required to ride dragons AND Tyrion turns out to be a dragonrider), I think a reveal of A+J=J+C would be even more pointless. What purpose would it serve other than to "explain" something--Cersei's insanity--which didn't need explaining? 

[Jasta11]

On 6/11/2017 at 2:43 PM, Newstar said:

The biggest problem with A+J=T is...what's the point? It would only matter from a plot perspective if 1) Tyrion is going to be a dragonrider and 2) Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon. Even assuming that Tyrion is going to ride a dragon, GRRM's comments about the heads of the dragon not needing to be Targs and the fact that Nettles seems to have tamed Sheepstealer without the benefit of Targ blood throw doubt on the idea that Targ blood is needed.

So if Tyrion can be a full-blooded Lannister and still ride a dragon and be one of the heads of the dragon and all that good stuff, there's no point to revealing A+J=T. Nor is there any chance that Tyrion would be anything other than a Targ bastard, unlike, say, Jon, who could very well be legitimate in the event that it turns out that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. What would be the point?

I'm also coming up short on how exactly anyone is supposed to learn the truth about Tyrion assuming he is a Targ bastard, other than, say, Bran. Even Jon has Howland Reed running around. There has been some speculation that Tyrion will accidentally reveal his Targ heritage when he successfully rides a dragon, but given that dragonriding doesn't seem to require Targ blood given Nettles' example, that seems unlikely to prove anything one way or another.

That's my view too. Jon's parentage changes things because it makes him fit into the whole mythological arc of the series, rather than ''just'' being Ned's bastard. What does Tyrion being Aerys's son brings? In terms of drama, almost nothing since Tyrion already killed Tywin believing he was his father. In terms of plot importance, nothing changes unless Tyrion then goes on to do something derpy like become a master dragonrider overnight because muh magic blood. And pretty much nobody alive could ever know nor care about this, unless GRRM pulls out a true Deus Ex Machine and has Barristan somehow know this secret of the Lannisters or makes Gerion come back from the dead just to inform us.

I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a plotline worth pursuing, just to give us a mirror Jon. There are enough Targaryens, secret or otherwise, as it is in this story, and Tyrion's character arc is perfectly served by him being a Lannister. We really don't need one of the few remaining non-Targaryen or Stark important characters to also be a Targ just so GRRM can fill his secret parentage quota. 

[BalerionTheCat]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime is compared to other Lannisters by Genna and never compared to a Targaryen. In fact, not even Cersei is. Only Joff is, and he only by Tyrion.

I can't resist giving you Tyrion's words, you certainly know:

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys.

And concerning Jaime, if you refer to this quote:

You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak ... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.

She says he has the color and the look of a Lannister, superficial qualities. But he is not! Contrary to Tyrion.

 

ETA: In case you wonder, I don't pretend she says "Tywin is not a Jaime's father". I say she doesn't see him that much a Lannister.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Jasta11 said:

That's my view too. Jon's parentage changes things because it makes him fit into the whole mythological arc of the series, rather than ''just'' being Ned's bastard. What does Tyrion being Aerys's son brings? In terms of drama, almost nothing since Tyrion already killed Tywin believing he was his father. In terms of plot importance, nothing changes unless Tyrion then goes on to do something derpy like become a master dragonrider overnight because muh magic blood. And pretty much nobody alive could ever know nor care about this, unless GRRM pulls out a true Deus Ex Machine and has Barristan somehow know this secret of the Lannisters or makes Gerion come back from the dead just to inform us.

I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a plotline worth pursuing, just to give us a mirror Jon. There are enough Targaryens, secret or otherwise, as it is in this story, and Tyrion's character arc is perfectly served by him being a Lannister. We really don't need one of the few remaining non-Targaryen or Stark important characters to also be a Targ just so GRRM can fill his secret parentage quota. 

See I thought the same thing until I read about rumor from the world book that was denounced, has no textual support, and makes no sense. From that point on, I was convinced that this Tyrion has to change his paternity.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I can't resist giving you Tyrion's words, you certainly know:

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys.

And concerning Jaime, if you refer to this quote:

You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak ... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.

She says he has the color and the look of a Lannister, superficial qualities. But he is not! Contrary to Tyrion.

 

ETA: In case you wonder, I don't pretend she says "Tywin is not a Jaime's father". I say she doesn't see him that much a Lannister.

"You're so much like your uncles but not your dad" doesn't really strike me as him not being much of a Lannister. Your mileage may vary.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

"You're so much like your uncles but not your dad" doesn't really strike me as him not being much of a Lannister. Your mileage may vary.

I didn't say "not being much of a Lannister". I said "that much a Lannister". Of course he is Lannister by his mother. But as much as she tries comparison with Lannisters, even going to things as trivial as smiling (something Tywin does not), she sees none with Tywin.

But of course, your mileage may vary.

[Lord Varys]

47 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I can't resist giving you Tyrion's words, you certainly know:

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys.

I didn't recall those, actually, but those are actually hyperbole and insults. Cersei is not as cruel as King Maegor, nor as selfish as Aegon the Unworthy and certainly not even remotely as mad as Aerys.

Not to mention that Tyrion (consciously) never met a Targaryen in his life. He didn't know Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, or Viserys personally. His comparisons are as valid as the parallels we can draw. He doesn't have any special insights. And it is not surprising that Tyrion compares Cersei, a queen at that point, to some of the monarchs of Westeros.

47 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

And concerning Jaime, if you refer to this quote:

You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak ... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.

She says he has the color and the look of a Lannister, superficial qualities. But he is not! Contrary to Tyrion.

Those are all general Lannister traits, apparently. Tygett Lannister was a great fighter, indicating that Jaime is not that exceptional. Jaime also has a pretty good sense of humor, at least at times. And he is pretty loyal to his family as Kevan is. Those are not superficial traits.

47 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

ETA: In case you wonder, I don't pretend she says "Tywin is not a Jaime's father". I say she doesn't see him that much a Lannister.

Dream Joanna makes it clear that Jaime and Cersei are her and Tywin's children. That is pretty convincing to me. It would be the perfect opportunity for George to give us a hint into the Aerys direction.

If you were right there this whole thing would be revealed eventually. And there would be pretty good hints - hints of the sort we get for Tyrion - in the books by now. But there are none of that sort.

[Newstar]

34 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I didn't say "not being much of a Lannister". I said "that much a Lannister". Of course he is Lannister by his mother. But as much as she tries comparison with Lannisters, even going to things as trivial as smiling (something Tywin does not), she sees none with Tywin.

But of course, your mileage may vary.

I tend to agree that Genna heaping on the comparisons to Jaime's uncles is the opposite of saying he's not a Lannister. Genna is making these comparisons to say that while he is very much a Lannister and has many traits of his family members, he cannot fill Tywin's shoes when it comes to the role of the family protector and patriarch. She prefaces the statement "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you" with a lot of flattering comparisons to his family members to soften the blow.

Nor does Jaime walk away from this conversation questioning his parentage. He understood Genna's meaning very well.

 

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dream Joanna makes it clear that Jaime and Cersei are her and Tywin's children. That is pretty convincing to me. It would be the perfect opportunity for George to give us a hint into the Aerys direction.

If you were right there this whole thing would be revealed eventually. And there would be pretty good hints - hints of the sort we get for Tyrion - in the books by now. But there are none of that sort.

It is interesting that Tyrion doesn't come up when Dream/Ghost Joanna is talking about the children Tywin dreamed of having:

 

Quote

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

Not really evidence one way or another, but it is kind of odd. "His son" as in only the one. 

[Dofs]

On 2017-6-12 at 10:23 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

One interesting point it that Joanna "seldom" visited KL after Rhaella revoked her from her court. But for Cersei and Jaime to be fathered by Tywin: either Tywin visited Casterly Rock at the right time, or  Joanna came to KL. Tywin was Hand of the King. Given Ned's experience in the office, I don't know which one was the less "seldom". 

During Tywin's and Joanna's marriage there was a saying: "ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but was ruled at home by his lady wife". Considering that Tywin was Hand of the King during his entire marriage with Joanna, Tywin had to visit his actual home and quite often for such saying to appear.

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I can't resist giving you Tyrion's words, you certainly know:

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys.

And concerning Jaime, if you refer to this quote:

You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak ... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.

She says he has the color and the look of a Lannister, superficial qualities. But he is not! Contrary to Tyrion.

 

ETA: In case you wonder, I don't pretend she says "Tywin is not a Jaime's father". I say she doesn't see him that much a Lannister.

I am not going to discuss the fact that Genna sees Tywin's brothers in Jaime, as it was already mentioned by others but taking her "Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you" at face value is a big misinterpretation of the scene as Jaime disproves Genna's assessment about him in his very next chapter. Her statement that Jaime is not Tywin's son was truthful regarding old Jaime, the one she knew but that Jaime is gone, he had changed when he lost his hand and about the the current Jaime Genna is wrong.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

It is interesting that Tyrion doesn't come up when Dream/Ghost Joanna is talking about the children Tywin dreamed of having.

Not really evidence one way or another, but it is kind of odd. "His son" as in only the one. 

It is odd. It is certainly not proof that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. After all, we don't really know who this dream Joanna is - is she a genuine spirit or ghost or some sort of fake vision created by Bloodraven or just Jaime having a vivid dream? We don't really know at this point.

But the idea that Jaime/Cersei could be Aerys' children would also demand that George eventually reveals this fact to us and some characters in the books. There are a lot of hints that Tyrion might be Aerys' son but basically none supporting the idea that the twins are not Tywin's. In light of the fact that dream Joanna could very well have given Jaime a good hint in that direction it is very odd that she did not.

Cersei and Jaime are not likely to become dragonriders or hook up with other Targaryens. If they were Aerys' children (which they are not) the story could work just as well without anybody ever learning this 'truth'. And unlike with Tyrion there is also little chance that there are any people left in the books who could know about that and make that knowledge a part of the plot. If Selmy or Varys knew they most likely would have used that knowledge long ago to destroy them.

Selmy could have told Robert and the world after Jaime killed his son, preventing the marriage between Robert and Cersei in the process. King Robert would never t have married a Targaryen-Lannister bastard. Varys could have used it to his advantage, too.

If you take this idea seriously for a moment it completely falls apart.

7 minutes ago, Dofs said:

During Tywin's and Joanna's marriage there was a saying: "ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but was ruled at home by his lady wife". Considering that Tywin was Hand of the King during his entire marriage with Joanna, Tywin had to visit his actual home and quite often for such saying to appear.

 

That is an important point. Considering that they only married after Tywin became Hand of the King he really must have spent quite some time at home.

7 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I am not going to discuss the fact that Genna sees Tywin's brothers in Jaime, as it was already mentioned by others but taking her "Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you" at face value is a big misinterpretation of the scene as Jaime disproves Genna's assessment about him in his very next chapter. Her statement that Jaime is not Tywin's son was truthful regarding old Jaime, the one she knew but that Jaime is gone, he had changed when he lost his hand and about the the current Jaime Genna is wrong.

The impressions certain people have about others are not really all that important. George plays with that kind of thing. Such opinions are reversible. Jaime proved that he is Tywin's son - that he can be as ruthless and effective as his old man - when he ensured Riverrun's surrender. He knew how to deal with Edmure Tully. Whether that success is going to last is another matter but he was channeling his father there quite effectively.

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I didn't say "not being much of a Lannister". I said "that much a Lannister". Of course he is Lannister by his mother. But as much as she tries comparison with Lannisters, even going to things as trivial as smiling (something Tywin does not), she sees none with Tywin.

But of course, your mileage may vary.

My mileage would be in reverse of your opinion. "You're like the rest of your family except the giant cynical asshole" doesn't exactly elicit thoughts of different paternity. My personality is very much like my father's. My brother's is nothing like my father's or mother's. If my sister or aunt said something like "You look like your brother. You are as athletic as your grandfather was. And there must be something of your cousins in you, but USD is Robert's son, not you" that would indicate nothing about his paternity. It's about personality, not genetics.

That's exactly how GRRM is portraying it in the book.

[BalerionTheCat]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The impressions certain people have about others are not really all that important. George plays with that kind of thing. Such opinions are reversible. Jaime proved that he is Tywin's son - that he can be as ruthless and effective as his old man - when he ensured Riverrun's surrender. He knew how to deal with Edmure Tully. Whether that success is going to last is another matter but he was channeling his father there quite effectively.

Not completely to me. Tywin is better known for his method with the Castameres. But yes, he also knew when it was time to strike a deal.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you were right there this whole thing would be revealed eventually. And there would be pretty good hints - hints of the sort we get for Tyrion - in the books by now. But there are none of that sort.

But whatever. I'm really baffled sometimes, and here dispirited, how someone can sometime see evidences in something, and other people not. While opposite also applies. Others seeing evidences somewhere I see none. This is to the credit of the wonderful GRRM story, I feel unable to communicate my appreciation and enjoyment. To me, it arises in some part from the reader's preconceived views and expectations for the characters. So much more for my amazement of GRRM work.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not completely to me. Tywin is better known for his method with the Castameres. But yes, he also knew when it was time to strike a deal.

Oh, I meant the trebuchet comment. That is something Tywin could have said, too. Castamere actually showed Tywin's weakness in his cruelty. He could not storm Castamere, nor could he afford to besiege it. The only way was to drown everybody. Jaime still had other options left. But it is quite clear that he would have stormed Riverrun and killed everybody inside the castle if Edmure had not accepted his deal. In that sense he is very much like Tywin.

5 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But whatever. I'm really baffled sometimes, and here dispirited, how someone can sometime see evidences in something, and other people not. While opposite also applies. Others seeing evidences somewhere I see none. This is to the credit of the wonderful GRRM story, I feel unable to communicate my appreciation and enjoyment. To me, it arises in some part from the reader's preconceived views and expectations for the characters. So much more for my amazement of GRRM work.

Well, I ask you then where you actually see hints in the books that actually point towards Aerys II being the father of the twins aside from those character parallels you mentioned.

We have quite a few such hints towards Jon's true parentage, some hints indicating that Illyrio might be Aegon's father, some hints that Tyrion might not be Tywin's son but Aerys' son.

But there are no real hints where the foundation for the revelation that Cersei and Jaime's dad was Tywin is laid.

And quite honestly, the theory in itself is full of holes. Didn't Aerys II know or at least suspect that Jaime was his son? Why didn't he ever tell him if this was the case? Why was he afraid of 'Lord Tywin's son' after he made him his bodyguard? Why did he steal Lord Tywin's heir if the man was actually his own son? Wouldn't it have been more pleasing to him to see Casterly Rock go to his son? Couldn't Aerys have tried to win Jaime's loyalty by revealing the truth to him? Why did Aerys reject Cersei as Rhaegar's bride if he knew/suspected that she was Rhaegar's half-sister? He was desperately looking for a bride with Valyrian blood.

Who does know about this thing if Tywin does not? How is it going to be revealed? Why didn't Tywin suspect anything?

I could continue this.

Have you a clear-cut picture or at least a sketch how the Jaime-Cersei-Targaryen-story is going to become a relevant plot point in the future of the books?

And back to the original topic:

I think a crucial part of why Tywin did not kill or reject Tyrion as his son despite the fact that he knew or suspected he was Aerys' son was his determination to make Cersei Rhaegar's bride. He had had that goal for a very long time, since before Tyrion's birth. And his confidence that this plan would be realized may be connected to the fact that he suffered Aerys' humiliations including the rape or seduction of his own wife, and his choice to acknowledge their bastard as his own son. It would not surprise me at all if Tywin had introduced Aerys to his three-year-old dwarf son, implying or explicitly mentioning that he essentially took the shame such a son brought to a father on himself to protect his king. In exchange he may have demanded that Aerys now take a Lannister into his family as his new daughter(-in-law). We don't know what happened during that tourney behind closed doors.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I ask you then where you actually see hints in the books that actually point towards Aerys II being the father of the twins aside from those character parallels you mentioned.

You already discarded here and elsewhere what I (and some other) presented. But yes, there are plenty in this thread saying like you. There are other hints, Cersei attraction for fire, the incest, her desire to live like the Targaryens, the parallel of fathers... Don't care to dismiss them, you already did it, more than once. I'm tired and can't care now to defend my ideas.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And quite honestly, the theory in itself is full of holes. (1) Didn't Aerys II know or at least suspect that Jaime was his son? Why didn't he ever tell him if this was the case? Why was he afraid of 'Lord Tywin's son' after he made him his bodyguard? Why did he steal Lord Tywin's heir if the man was actually his own son? Wouldn't it have been more pleasing to him to see Casterly Rock go to his son? Couldn't Aerys have tried to win Jaime's loyalty by revealing the truth to him? Why did Aerys reject Cersei as Rhaegar's bride if he knew/suspected that she was Rhaegar's half-sister? He was desperately looking for a bride with Valyrian blood.

(2) Who does know about this thing if Tywin does not? How is it going to be revealed? Why didn't Tywin suspect anything?

I could continue this.

(3) Have you a clear-cut picture or at least a sketch how the Jaime-Cersei-Targaryen-story is going to become a relevant plot point in the future of the books?

(1) I don't think Aerys knew. I don't think anyone knows.

(2) Tywin didn't even suspect the incest. He was so blind, so proud of his children, and couldn't think they were not his

(3) My guess is something will happen (to Myrcella, search why my name in my early posts here if you want to know). Something which should not be possible without the Targaryen blood. But you will always be able to deny it LV, I'm sure. That is the quality of a story, to remain open to debate after its conclusion.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

You already discarded here and elsewhere what I (and some other) presented. But yes, there are plenty in this thread saying like you. There are other hints, Cersei attraction for fire, the incest, her desire to live like the Targaryens, the parallel of fathers... Don't care to dismiss them, you already did it, more than once. I'm tired and can't care now to defend my ideas.

I thought about hints that actually establish a actual link. A hint as to the when and the how Aerys and Joanna had sex to conceive the twins. And the circumstances around that.

10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

(1) I don't think Aerys knew. I don't think anyone knows.

That would be very odd because it would then be impossible to prove or even introduce the concept that Aerys was the father (see below). And why on earth would Aerys II not suspect a woman he fucked around the time she got pregnant did not carry his children? He wasn't as stupid as that.

10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

(2) Tywin didn't even suspect the incest. He was so blind, so proud of his children, and couldn't think they were not his.

How so when he must have been around when that happened?

10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

(3) My guess is something will happen (to Myrcella, search why my name in my early posts here if you want to know). Something which should not be possible without the Targaryen blood. But you will always be able to deny it LV, I'm sure. That is the quality of a story, to remain open to debate after its conclusion.

Having Targaryen blood isn't the same as being the child of Aerys II. Targaryen blood would mean nothing in relation to that. Joanna could have abused young Rhaegar or she may have had an affair with a Plumm, Penrose, Tarth, or another Targaryen descendant through a female or bastard line. And Targaryen blood isn't even that special. Dragonlord blood is, and there are other dragonlord families around.

And as far as we know there are no things only Targaryens can do.

If that is your idea how George is going to reveal 'the truth' I don't find that particularly likely in relation to the way the books are usually written. Tyrion had a lot of pieces to conclude that Joff was behind the attempt on Bran. But if nobody knows about Aerys and Joanna conceiving the twins then nobody can conclude that they are their parents. And nobody would.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I thought about hints that actually establish a actual link. A hint as to the when and the how Aerys and Joanna had sex to conceive the twins. And the circumstances around that.

For your specific question, this was my "One interesting point" post above. I have no better for you here. I agree it proves nothing. It just justifies it is not impossible. And I agree, in comparison, the 272 tourney is a big big clue in favor of Tyrion. Enough if I could find a few other things convincing. Other than putting the 3 main characters equals in blood. Enough if there was not (my perception) overwhelming evidences in favor of Jaime and Cersei. In fact, I feel the tourney date plus the "seldom" have been set so that it becomes difficult to argue otherwise. Just short of making it impossible for Jaime and Cersei. But you can put that on my devious thinking.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be very odd because it would then be impossible to prove or even introduce the concept that Aerys was the father (see below). And why on earth would Aerys II not suspect a woman he fucked around the time she got pregnant did not carry his children? He wasn't as stupid as that.

Neither Aerys nor Tywin would need to suspect anything. Tywin is supposed to bed his woman. And the children are fully looking Lannisters.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And as far as we know there are no things only Targaryens can do.

If that is your idea how George is going to reveal 'the truth' I don't find that particularly likely in relation to the way the books are usually written. Tyrion had a lot of pieces to conclude that Joff was behind the attempt on Bran. But if nobody knows about Aerys and Joanna conceiving the twins then nobody can conclude that they are their parents. And nobody would.

Maybe the Targaryens are not that much special. But maybe Daenerys and those in Aerys+Rhaella line have something special. Or something from Aegon V's Blackwood wife. But speculations. It's not a question of inheriting the throne. No legitimate proof of anything is necessary. Just a why for those who think something (resurrecting for example) can't happen with normal people.

[Dofs]

On 2017-6-13 at 9:41 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I didn't say "not being much of a Lannister". I said "that much a Lannister". Of course he is Lannister by his mother. But as much as she tries comparison with Lannisters, even going to things as trivial as smiling (something Tywin does not), she sees none with Tywin.

But of course, your mileage may vary.

 

You really stretch it a lot to equalise 'Tywin' with' Lannister'. Look at Tywin's siblings, look at Jaime's cousins, look at some history Lannisters like Tytos, for example. It's not Jaime who is not that much a Lannister, it's Tywin. It's him who is an outlier. Jaime by his qualities is actually a Lannister to the bone. It is even weird to me that you mention smiling/joking, one of the most common Lannister traits, as not Lannister-like. Tywin was not a combination of all 'true' Lannister traits, far from it. Him hating smiling doesn't mean that smiling isn't a normal Lannister behaviour.