[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[StepStark]

8 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Let's not use the dragon and end it all now, let's get her to play nice, says Tyrion. That's the most bizarre part of it all.

In a logical universe, Tyrion would be the last person to ever think of reasoning with Cersei, woman who, not a bit less than Tywin, irrationally but persistently used every single opportunity (and created some on her own) to make his life miserable.

[El Guapo]

Tyrion does not think he can reason with Cersei. He thinks Jamie can reason with Cersei.  Apparently he hasn't heard that Cersei wears the pants in that relationship and that Jamie is just her lapdog.

[Le Cygne]

12 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I think there are plenty of us. 

Same here. He's too cool for school.

[StepStark]

22 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Despite how stupid I thought the writing was, it didn't make me enjoy the episode any less.

Once again sorry if I'm crossing lines I shouldn't have, but I have to ask you: what it takes then for you to enjoy the show any less? I'm honestly asking, because to me the writing is the only part that can't be overlooked. I can excuse bad acting or directing and I can excuse inadequate locations, because all that is dependent on various factors that aren't necessarily about creativity, but writing is where it all starts and where creativity is crucial. That's my honest opinion.

[StepStark]

3 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Tyrion does not think he can reason with Cersei. He thinks Jamie can reason with Cersei.  Apparently he hasn't heard that Cersei wears the pants in that relationship and that Jamie is just her lapdog.

I wasn't talking about specifics, regardless of who's doing the diplomacy at the end of the day Tyrion is counting on Cersei's rationality which is absurd. And also, if you insist on Jaime, in the show Tyrion actually knows how ineffective Jaime is in that regard because he knows that Jaime tried and failed to make Cersei realize that he (Tyrion) isn't guilty for Joff's death.

But in any case, the entire idea "Let's go capture some wight so we can negotiate armistice with Cersei" is so ridiculous, no matter who thought of it.

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

Has anyone mentioned the fact that unlike all the commanders on Westeros, Tormund actually had scouts that picked up Beric, Thoros and the Hound prior to them making it to Eastwatch.

Tormund clearly needs to be made Supreme General of the armies of the North just for that.

[george]

I know that it's easy to jump on the "The Writers Suck" train but the convo between Sam and Gilly was really bad.

 

What we got:

Gilly:  (some dialog about stairs and bowel movements)

Sam: (staring a book, but not really reading it) That's nice Gilly. *thought bubble - this maestering thing isn't what I thought it would be.*

Gilly:  Sam, what's an annulment? 

Sam:  (still staring a the book) It's a way to cancel a marriage *thought bubble - The arch maester is a jerk, all the maesters here think I'm an idiot. I hate them.*

Gilly:  (slowly pronouncing the names) It says here that Prince Ra, um Raagar Tar gair ian got an annulment and married someone named Li, Leeanna Sta...

Sam:  Be quiet Gilly!  Pack your things, we're leaving.

 

What we should have had:

Gilly:  Sam, what's an annulment? 

Sam:  (staring a book, but not really reading it) It's a way to cancel a marriage.

Gilly:  (slowly pronouncing the names) It says here that Prince Ra, um Raagar Tar gair ian got an annulment and married someone named Li, Leeanna Sta...

Sam:  (looking up at Gilly, curious) Lyanna Stark?

Gilly:  Yes, Stark.  Wasn't Lord Commander Snow's fathers name, Stark?

Sam:  Pack your things Gilly.  We're leaving.

 

First, basically Sam gives up his dream to become a maester and leaves the Citadel because he hates college and his roommates are jerks, not because someone just told him something important about his friend and that Sam might want tell him face to face.

Second, this is probably the most important bit of information in the show and the writers shut it down to show that Sam is unhappy.  Why?  Why have this scene at all if it's not leading to anything except that Sam has had enough of the Citadel?  Is it simply to show us that the writers haven't forgotten about the young Ned/Lyanna scene at the ToJ they showed us last season?

 

 

[Jordan La Cabra]

6 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Once again sorry if I'm crossing lines I shouldn't have, but I have to ask you: what it takes then for you to enjoy the show? I'm honestly asking, because to me the writing is the only part that can't be overlooked. I can excuse bad acting or directing and I can excuse inadequate locations, because all that is dependent on various factors that aren't necessarily about creativity, but writing is where it all starts and where creativity is crucial. That's my honest opinion.

But you are mistaking me to be associating all the writing to be stupid, which it is far from.

The good writing in this show, the moments such as Ep5's Gendry's reappearance, the hints and clues that Dany is falling for Jon, Davos' story to distract the gold cloaks, Jorah's return, Tormund's 'The big woman?' question. These things all far outweigh the unrealistic nature in which Jaime and Bronn survived.

I prefer to look at the good examples of writing than focusing on the poor examples. I find, when you look hard enough, you will find more examples of good writing than bad. But if you look at it only negatively, you'll miss the good parts because you are too caught up in moments like Jaime and Bronn surviving.

[aliasocfan]

I'm just going to copy and paste a rant from another site. 

Thank God Jaime has really thick plot armor. Otherwise he should have drowned. 
If Game of Thrones was a well written show (lolz it's not), I would think they are challenging their audience with the dragons burning people alive. With Ed Sheeran, that was a moment with humanizing Lannister soldiers. That was completely ignored for omfg cool fight scene with dragons. 
Go Randyll Tarly. You remember and care that Tyrion murdered his own father. Oh wait, now you're dead.... and so is your son. Yay for wiping out houses. 
No wait, Tyrion doesn't seem to care that Jon deserted the Night's Watch. (They don't know he died. Clever loophole) I guess Sam can leave as well and have the Tarly's live on. 
OMG guys do you think Jon is Targ? He bonded with a dragon. But seriously given the show's complete lack of subtly, he should have bonded with Rhaegal. 
Game of Thrones is super feminist. Dany will only be a good leader if she listens to Varys and Saint Tyrion. So empowered. #womenontop
I'm genuinely confused by the Arya and Sansa scene. Because she didn't execute people right away for dissenting opinions she's going to betray Jon? What? Just a couple of episodes ago, she learned so much from Cersei. I can't keep track of all her personalities. 
Is she evil for acting like she listened to Cersei a couple of episodes ago or is she evil for not listening to Cersei? I'm really not sure. 
She was soaking up the compliments of the Northern Lords and Nights of the Vale. Jon being named King of the North over her literally made absolutely no sense. I didn't mind. (He's a bastard and a Night's Watch deserter. At the time, Sansa was the only Stark that was known to be alive) The Night's of the Vale only care because of her. You can say it's because of Littlefinger or her cousin. Pick your favorite. 
She also likes pretty things? So? After all the terrible things she's been through, she deserves them all. 
Oh Gendry's back. He has a War Hammer like Robert. That's cool I guess. 
Davos acknowledged the Battle of Blackwater. His son got burned alive by wildfire. As soon as he mentioned it, it was dropped. Yay.  
Gilly's mentioning Rhaegar's annulment.  The show writers really need to work through their issues with House Martell. How much more can they really screw them over? Were Elia and her children only important for Oberyn's infamous lines?

[iprayiam]

2 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Okay, but when it comes to stuff like this, does it really matter that their magic river ride was unrealistic?

What matter is what happens the characters. Would you rather Jaime died? More people would moan about his death because that's a big plot point, than some easy ride D&D made to save him.

I don't get why people get so caught up on these 'unrealistic' moments. It happens in all tv shows, all movies, all books, all pieces of fiction. They aren't that important.

Every writer ever has done saved a character that really should have died. It doesn't make D&D any worse than anyone else, it just makes them the same as everyone else.

If you don't care about stuff like that then we fundamentally disagree with the definition of a quality show, and fair enough. But I'll try to address this:

1. just because it happens in media all the time, doesn't make me like it.

2. It's about following internal consistency that has been set up. GoT has been set of from the beginning as a series that takes consequences to a serious and often deadly degree. Changing that for certain characters is more about unrealistic and inconsistent "in-universe" than unrealistic "in our world". For example, I'm much more forgiving of this stuff in the Marvel Universe, because it has been set up from the beginning as having a cartoon internal consistency when it comes to physics and repercussions of violence. I still don't love it, but it's consistent.

3. Why should Jamie get a pass because viewers like him when the show was just as happy to kill of any other main character?

4. The only options weren't Jamie dies or Jamie magically swims away. Several other commentors in this thread have suggested much more plausible outcomes that actually would have contributed to the plot much better. For example, capturing Jamie and having the Tyrion plan take place there rather than later in the episode.

5. If the writers didn't see any plausible way out of that situation where Jamie doesn't die, and they didn't want to kill him then they DIDN'T HAVE TO SET IT UP LIKE THAT!

[StepStark]

Speaking of Gilly, does anyone know why does she talk like a retard? I've seen and heard the actress, she doesn't have a speech problem in real life, so it must be something D&D insist on. Is it meant to constantly remind the viewers that she's an alien in this world? Or is it just a leftover from earlier seasons when she was constantly in agony?

[Illiterati]

Just now, StepStark said:

Speaking of Gilly, does anyone know why does she talk like a retard? I've seen and heard the actress, she doesn't have a speech problem in real life, so it must be something D&D insist on. Is it meant to constantly remind the viewers that she's an alien in this world? Or is it just a leftover from earlier seasons when she was constantly in agony?

The whole uneducated inbred thing.

[Hound's She-Wolf 2]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

Please watch again the death of Amory Lorch in season two and then think about how capable D&D really are. And the same for that Qarth nonsense in the same season. And for all the other stupidities from earlier seasons. Just watch again the scene where Robert's away hunting and Ned is on the Iron Throne receiving reports about Gregor's crimes in the Riverlands, and pay close attention to Littlefinger's lines in that scene - not in a million years can something like that pass for a competent writing. And not to mention the infamous sexposition scene with Ros and that other prositute, also from season one. The truth is that D&D were never better, they were always as incompetent as they are now, but people were easily distracted back then with scenes that were more faithful to the books. And yes, even school kids could write better than D&D, but not because D&D don't care any more, but because they couldn't write competently even if their lives depend on it.

I have been saying this for years, and fanboys would shout themselves hoarse telling me I was wrong. I would add the amazing visuals in the show have also entranced and blinded people to its flaws. The show is still really pretty, but there is no substance now and people are starting to wake up to the massive plot holes and character inconsistencies and lack of sense and logic due to crappy writing. .

[StepStark]

10 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

But you are mistaking me to be associating all the writing to be stupid, which it is far from.

The good writing in this show, the moments such as Ep5's Gendry's reappearance, the hints and clues that Dany is falling for Jon, Davos' story to distract the gold cloaks, Jorah's return, Tormund's 'The big woman?' question. These things all far outweigh the unrealistic nature in which Jaime and Bronn survived.

I prefer to look at the good examples of writing than focusing on the poor examples. I find, when you look hard enough, you will find more examples of good writing than bad. But if you look at it only negatively, you'll miss the good parts because you are too caught up in moments like Jaime and Bronn surviving.

Thanks for the answer. And in general we agree, it's easy to forgive certain mistakes when there's something really good to compensate for the bad. It's just that I don't find any of those examples to be good writing (except maybe Tormund asking about the big woman which was funny) and certainly not good enough to make me forgive the nonsense like Jaime and Bronn surviving, but since you are polite and respectful (very few show lovers are like that, sorry to say) we don't have to dig deeper into the subject.

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

If you don't care about stuff like that then we fundamentally disagree with the definition of a quality show, and fair enough. But I'll try to address this:

1. just because it happens in media all the time, doesn't make me like it.

2. It's about following internal consistency that has been set up. GoT has been set of from the beginning as a series that takes consequences to a serious and often deadly degree. Changing that for certain characters is more about unrealistic and inconsistent "in-universe" than unrealistic "in our world". For example, I'm much more forgiving of this stuff in the Marvel Universe, because it has been set up from the beginning as having a cartoon internal consistency when it comes to physics and repercussions of violence. I still don't love it, but it's consistent.

3. Why should Jamie get a pass because viewers like him when the show was just as happy to kill of any other main character?

4. The only options weren't Jamie dies or Jamie magically swims away. Several other commentors in this thread have suggested much more plausible outcomes that actually would have contributed to the plot much better. For example, capturing Jamie and having the Tyrion plan take place there rather than later in the episode.

5. If the writers didn't see any plausible way out of that situation where Jamie doesn't die, and they didn't want to kill him then they DIDN'T HAVE TO SET IT UP LIKE THAT!

Don't get me wrong, I think there are many ways Jaime could have been handled better. Firstly, not ending the previous episode with him sinking into the water would have been a good start. If they didn't want Jaime to die, they shouldn't have put him in a situation where avoiding death was unrealistic. I agree with that 100%.

I said myself after the previous episode that I hoped Jaime would be lifted from the river and captured by Daenerys. The conversation he and Tyrion had could have happened with Jaime in a cell and Tyrion could have even repaid a favour by freeing him, then bearing the wrath of Daenerys, who had already started to doubt his loyalty prior to episode 4.

But he key thing here is none of what I had hoped and what I thought would make the most sense happened. But do I see it as a reason to complain and let it override what I thought was a very good episode? Absolutely not. 

There are much bigger issues, in my opinion, than the likelihood of Jaime actually having survived what he survived.

 

[Ser Didymus]

10 minutes ago, george said:

First, basically Sam gives up his dream to become a maester and leaves the Citadel because he hates college and his roommates are jerks, not because someone just told him something important about his friend and that Sam might want tell him face to face.

Second, this is probably the most important bit of information in the show and the writers shut it down to show that Sam is unhappy.  Why?  Why have this scene at all if it's not leading to anything except that Sam has had enough of the Citadel?  Is it simply to show us that the writers haven't forgotten about the young Ned/Lyanna scene at the ToJ they showed us last season?

Sam was directed by the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (an order Sam is a sworn member of) to join the Citadel and become a trained and chained Maester to serve at Castle Black.

so, is Dolorous Edd going to cut Sam's head off?  or is Jon still the Lord Commander, seeing as how he is garrisoning Eastwatch with his wilding friends?

either way, i'm pretty sure Sam's voluntary expulsion from the Citadel means that he is violating a direct order from then Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Janos Slynt once disregarded the Lord Commander's orders.  Eddard Stark beheaded a man in the first episode of the show for abandoning his assignment on the Night's Watch...  what's next for Sam?

[Illiterati]

Jon isn't garrisoning Eastwatch.  He's on a short term mission that launched from Eastwatch.  He isn't doing anything that would give one the idea that he is Night's Watch.

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Thanks for the answer. And in general we agree, it's easy to forgive certain mistakes when there's something really good to compensate for the bad. It's just that I don't find any of those examples to be good writing (except maybe Tormund asking about the big woman which was funny) and certainly not good enough to make me forgive the nonsense like Jaime and Bronn surviving, but since you are polite and respectful (very few show lovers are like that, sorry to say) we don't have to dig deeper into the subject.

I fully believe the idea of Jaime being captured and held prisoner at Dragonstone then having the conversation he had with Tyrion in a cell a lot better than the alternative that the writers gave us. But they have written what they've written and I can't change that. Unfortunately picking apart the errors in their writing hasn't made them stop making them, so I see little point in doing so.

I don't believe the writers are without fault and without inaccuracies. I agree with most of the complaints people have about the show, but at the same time, there is a lot more I like about it than dislike. I am not going to let these moments that I don't agree with lace my view on the show with negativity. 

[iprayiam]

13 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

But you are mistaking me to be associating all the writing to be stupid, which it is far from.

The good writing in this show, the moments such as Ep5's Gendry's reappearance, the hints and clues that Dany is falling for Jon, Davos' story to distract the gold cloaks, Jorah's return, Tormund's 'The big woman?' question. These things all far outweigh the unrealistic nature in which Jaime and Bronn survived.

None of those things you mentioned are good writing. They're all fan service, with the possible exception of the Davos thing. I get what they were trying to do there, continuing to subvert expectations about whether they are just going to kill them. But it played out like a Family Guy sketch.

Quote

I prefer to look at the good examples of writing than focusing on the poor examples. I find, when you look hard enough, you will find more examples of good writing than bad. 

I'm reminded of a certain onion analogy. If parts of it are rotten, it's all rotten. I don't mind weak moments, but if I have to "look hard" to find a plurality of good writing, then it's not well written. An umbrella that keeps you dry 51% of the time is a shit umbrella.

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Illiterati said:

Jon isn't garrisoning Eastwatch.  He's on a short term mission that launched from Eastwatch.  He isn't doing anything that would give one the idea that he is Night's Watch.

Jon sent Tormund and his people to garrison Eastwach back in episode 1. Remember when Tormund smugly told the northern lords Looks like we're the Night's Watch now.

So Jon basically became Stannis.