[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[Le Cygne]

The show has been inconsistent for a long time...

[ramla]

6 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Has anyone mentioned the fact that unlike all the commanders on Westeros, Tormund actually had scouts that picked up Beric, Thoros and the Hound prior to them making it to Eastwatch.

CTHU a miracle! LOL

[David Selig]

2 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

In a season packed with fan service, Game of Thrones is getting uncharacteristically lazy about the details.

More and more people are starting to notice.

 

"Uncharacteristically lazy about the details" - my sides...

This has been one of the laziest written shows on TV for years.

[Ser Didymus]

1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

Has anyone mentioned the fact that unlike all the commanders on Westeros, Tormund actually had scouts that picked up Beric, Thoros and the Hound prior to them making it to Eastwatch.

while that may be the case, why were they in a dungeon at all?  why would Tormund, a wildling who was commanded by the KitN to hold Eastwatch (because i guess every brother of the Night's Watch that was garrisoned at Eastwatch died?  or just left?) just decide to imprison some Westerosi knights and lords who were attempting to travel North?  Tormund is well aware of the Army of the Dead.  It's not like he would think the BwB was lying to him regarding their mission.

 

[Gala]

2 minutes ago, Ser Didymus said:

while that may be the case, why were they in a dungeon at all?  why would Tormund, a wildling who was commanded by the KitN to hold Eastwatch (because i guess every brother of the Night's Watch that was garrisoned at Eastwatch died?  or just left?) just decide to imprison some Westerosi knights and lords who were attempting to travel North?  Tormund is well aware of the Army of the Dead.  It's not like he would think the BwB was lying to him regarding their mission.

 

And what would 3 knights do against the Army of the Dead? Seems like he was protecting them from themselves and also not adding 3 more to Night King's army. 

[darmody]

4 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Cersei has been queen for years. Got the Regency taken from admittedly because of her crimes in the eyes of the Seven. But it was not then given to Margeary, who was likewise under investigation and then died. There was never a point when Margeary was lawfully a higher queen then Cersei in life. That's not a thing, there's only one Regency, one Protector of the Realm and Margeary was a queen that was never any of them unlike Cersei.

It was never really clear to me how old Tommen was supposed to be, but Cersei could've been Queen Regent for a while. You'd think Tommen would be old enough to rule if he was old enough to marry. I guess they married early in order to solidify the alliance, though. 

There was a period of time after Cersei was under house arrest, when the Sparrow granted Marge clemency for converting Tommem to the Sparrovian faith. Tommen was clearly in charge at that point. Neither Kevan nor anyone else was ruling for him, and Cersei was totally out of the game. So I don't see how Marge wasn't above the Dowager Queen in status. 

In any case, even if Cersei was temporarily of higher rank, Marge was Queen Consort and would have superseded her in short order. Cersei didn't become Queen Regnant until after the Sept blew up and Tommen walked out a window. 

Tyrion was wrong to imply Cersei became queen by killing Marge, but the two were indirectly connected on account of Tommen killing himself partly because his mom killed his wife. 

[Jordan La Cabra]

9 minutes ago, ramla said:

In the Westeros, universe, The Faith had the vast support of the people of Kingslanding. So when its openly known, Cersei the brotherfukker did it, its unrealistic for the people to ever cheer for her. Ever support her. With everything she's done, the Tarly's should not have ever raised swords against house Tyrell in Cersei's name. Ever. It would have been moe realistic if, they showed, Cersei held the city by fear and force. Show, Soldiers terrorizing the small folks and stuff. 

Realism is what making a story good. Even one with Dragons and witches. The universe must be consistent.

To be fair, Cersei being Queen and her small folk not in revolt is something that bothers me about the story. It is not in anyway plausible or logical that they would be happy enough to have someone that committed mass homicide in the Sept as their Queen, considering they turned on Joffrey at the mere thought of him being born of incest.

But something like that and your example of the castles are larger examples. I am talking more about minor moments as opposed to problems with the overall realism in the story. For me, Cersei having the throne and half of Westeros' castles being abandoned is a much larger issue than Jaime and Bronn coming out of the river alive.

I realise it's not likely they would have survived in real life, but I accept it because them surving unrealistically is a lot better for the story than them dying.

[Cas Stark]

12 minutes ago, David Selig said:

"Uncharacteristically lazy about the details" - my sides...

This has been one of the laziest written shows on TV for years.

True.  But almost every reviewer is now forced to mention some of the most egregious plot holes, though they typically go on to excuse those plot holes, it seems that there has been some mass awakening due to the light speed version from season 7 that the plot holes are apparently obvious now to the casual viewer/reviewer, where for unknown reasons the plot holes that began to emerge in season 4 and got larger and larger since then, didn't seem to penetrate anyone's consciousness.  Everyone is still on the GOT train, but it seems to have lost some of it's prestige luster.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, darmody said:

I don't remember Cersei being Queen Regent, but it was never really clear to me how old Tommen was supposed to be. You'd think that he'd be old enough to rule on his own if he was old enough to marry Marge. 

In any case, even if Cersei was temporarily of higher rank, Marge was Queen Consort and would have superseded Cersei in short order. Cersei didn't become Queen Regnant until after the Sept blew up and Tommen walked out a window. 

Tyrion was wrong to imply Cersei became queen by killing Marge, but the two were indirectly connected on account of Tommen killing himself partly because his mom killed his wife. 

Tommen was aged up to 16 in order to legally allow for a scene that implied Tommen had sex (filming regulations... makes me wonder whether a movie like "KIDS" could still be filmed these days?). Men are off-age at 16 in Westeros, so yes, Tommen was an adult and king, not requiring a "regent" anymore. Cersei was Queen-mother, with no regent or ruling power whatsoever, except if Tommen gave her a seat at the small council, which he did not. How much Tommen is actual fully 100% king is made clear in S6 when Tommen forbids Cersei to leave the keep and be at Myrcella's funeral, and orders Jaime to the RL. So, his wife is the legal queen, who is Margaery Tyrell.

[Ser Didymus]

19 minutes ago, Gala said:

And what would 3 knights do against the Army of the Dead? Seems like he was protecting them from themselves and also not adding 3 more to Night King's army. 

Tormund told Jon that the men "thought he was a God" when he rose from the dead.  Beric has risen from the dead at least 6 times on the show.  all three of those men (also, i guess the BwB is now Thoros, Beric and the Hound) have seen prophetic visions in the flames.  

they're not some wandering children who got lost on their way to Winterfell.  they arrived there with a mission, but were captured/imprisoned because Jon would eventually show up (Tormund did not know this) and have them join is Snowcide Squad.  it's another plot contrivance that does not add ANYTHING to the story, but also serves to reveal how poorly written the show is.

would it not have made more sense for the BwB, who were WALKING to Eastwatch, to first stop at Winterfell?  give us a few reunions there.  Then have Jon go back to Winterfell on his way North, not only to see Bran and Arya before going on a suicide mission, but to check in with his people who chose him to lead.  He may have even added to his Snowcide Squad if he stopped at Winterfell first.  it would make sense that Sansa imprisoned these men, especially with what she knows about the Hound.  yet, in this episode, Lord Glover complains that "The King in the North should STAY in the North."  well, if only they knew that Jon and crew just teleported right past Winterfell and up to the Wall.

why avoid the opportunity to have the Hound, Arya, Sansa, Littlefinger and the remaining two members of the BwB in the same castle?  the Hound calling out Littlefinger for his b.s. (the Hound was in the throne room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned Stark) is far more organic of a path for Littlefinger to meet his end, then to have him bumble and stumble through pointless conversations with the Stark children, only to hang himself through his incompetence.

also, as many have already stated, Gendry should have been with the BwB this whole time.  it would have made even more sense for him to be with them as they travelled North, serving as their blacksmith.  it couldve even explained his magical hammer-wielding prowess if he at least had men to train with... and he and Arya could have re-united as well.

and finally, wouldn't the Snowcide Squad at least be riding horses on their mission?  whose job is it to carry a captured wight on their back like Bran sitting in a basket on Hodor's back?

[SerProle]

48 minutes ago, Ser Didymus said:

it's also hilarious to me that immediately following the episode, we get the two clowns holding our hands as they explain what these scenes actually mean.  the show is so poorly constructed at this point that the showrunners need to tell us what to think after they already showed us exactly what they wanted to show us, and it still isn't enough to make any of it matter to the viewer.

where we disagree is in the technical achievements of the show.  it is beautiful.  almost every shot is expertly crafted (in terms of visuals only).  despite the wooden acting of the two main characters of the show, i think GoT is best consumed on mute.  once the showrunners' script is in play, things begin to fall apart.  example: as nonsensical as the Jaime cliff-hanger was; and as stupid as it was that he and Bronn popped up downstream without a care in the world about being seen/captured, there was an element of beauty to the shot of Jaime sitting on the water's edge, shoulders slumped as he gazed across the water and across the battlefield, with smoke slowly rising against the setting sun.

 

 

Ha yeah I totally agree about the 'inside the episode' segments, I don't bother watching them, its such a lame attempt at 'explaining' what they failed to actually do in each episode.

But I have exactly the opposite reaction to what I bolded above. In fact, on mute for me is when the other flaws are most apparent. (I started watching some episodes on mute a few seasons ago when I thought the crafting of the show was going downhill as much as the writing, its no risk for me as I can work while watching the reruns on HBO that play throughout the week.) Especially the overuse of the actor's faces to replace actual acting. Jaime's face in this last episode was cartoonishly bad, a sequence of embarrassing mug shots. Its not his fault, its what he's being directed to do. But exaggerated emoting facial expressions do not equal good acting and don't cover up bad writing.

I have watched other shows also on mute, and sometimes movies late at night with subtitles while the spouse is sleeping lol, and when a film is done well you don't even need the sound to know what is happening, to feel the drama and tension and to appreciate good acting. GoT is pretty terrible by comparison and has been for some time.

And on mute it is ruthlessly clear that we are seeing actors in costumes, not characters in their world, the staging is so stagey, an awkward bunch of disjointed set pieces instead of a flowing look at another world. I hate shaky cam, its a copout and an excuse for lack of craft, but there are definitely still skillful ways to portray things in the medium of moving film that don't look like a bad slide show. And why bother with high end costumes if the lighting is so atrocious that they might as well be from the Goodwill bin? Moody and atmospheric do not equal dark and dim. Watching a non-HD version of the show will drive you insane, you simply can't see huge chunks of each episode. That is poor craft. The show is lazy in plenty of ways beyond the writing and story telling, especially when it isn't the action which gets the budget.

[Gala]

11 minutes ago, Ser Didymus said:

Tormund told Jon that the men "thought he was a God" when he rose from the dead.  Beric has risen from the dead at least 6 times on the show.  all three of those men (also, i guess the BwB is now Thoros, Beric and the Hound) have seen prophetic visions in the flames.  

they're not some wandering children who got lost on their way to Winterfell.  they arrived there with a mission, but were captured/imprisoned because Jon would eventually show up (Tormund did not know this) and have them join is Snowcide Squad.  it's another plot contrivance that does not add ANYTHING to the story, but also serves to reveal how poorly written the show is.

would it not have made more sense for the BwB, who were WALKING to Eastwatch, to first stop at Winterfell?  give us a few reunions there.  Then have Jon go back to Winterfell on his way North, not only to see Bran and Arya before going on a suicide mission, but to check in with his people who chose him to lead.  He may have even added to his Snowcide Squad if he stopped at Winterfell first.  it would make sense that Sansa imprisoned these men, especially with what she knows about the Hound.  

why avoid the opportunity to have the Hound, Arya, Sansa, Littlefinger and the remaining two members of the BwB in the same castle?  the Hound calling out Littlefinger for his b.s. (the Hound was in the throne room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned Stark) is far more organic of a path for Littlefinger to meet his end, then to have him bumble and stumble through pointless conversations with the Stark children, only to hang himself through his incompetence.

also, as many have already stated, Gendry should have been with the BwB this whole time.  it would have made even more sense for him to be with them as they travelled North, serving as their blacksmith.  it couldve even explained his magical hammer-wielding prowess if he at least had men to train with... and he and Arya could have re-united as well.

About Tormund: he doesn't know neither Beric nor his story, so it would not matter. My point is it seems logical to not letting anyone go beyond the Wall and to prevent them from going there. It is actually hard to prevent the Hound, Beric and Thoros to do what they want, thus, the dungeons is the best way to keep them. 
Anyway, I think it is just plot convenient and that's it. As you said about Gendry, for example. It was very convenient to keep them there to wait for the other key characters and join them on their suicide mission. Although, the Hound in the Winterfell with Stark girls would be great. I hoped that he would be the one to tell the girls about Littlefinger and Ned. I really hope their reunion will happen in the books and maybe later in the show, too.

[darmody]

4 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

There is absolutely no version of this where Margeary was the rightful queen of Randyl Tarly but Cersei wasn't. And of those two queens only Cersei was given right to autonomous rule until Tommen came of age at any point. Tyrion is full of ****.

Cersei isn't the rightful queen in Tyrion's eyes now, is the real point. She got to be fake-queen in part by blowing up the rightful queen consort, who was Marge. I don't know why you need to overcomplicate the situation. 

Anyway, you really think there was no time when Marge was the rightful queen and Cersei wasn't? Not even after the Sparrow freed Marge and she was the consort of the king, while Cersei was under house arrest in the Keep awaiting trial for--among other crimes--regicide?

(Though, as we all know, Tommen was not rightful king, even if you accept Robert as king. He was a bastard born of incest. Neither Cersei nor Marge were real queens during his or Joffrey's reigns, technically.)

[ramla]

15 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

To be fair, Cersei being Queen and her small folk not in revolt is something that bothers me about the story. It is not in anyway plausible or logical that they would be happy enough to have someone that committed mass homicide in the Sept as their Queen, considering they turned on Joffrey at the mere thought of him being born of incest.

But something like that and your example of the castles are larger examples. I am talking more about minor moments as opposed to problems with the overall realism in the story. For me, Cersei having the throne and half of Westeros' castles being abandoned is a much larger issue than Jaime and Bronn coming out of the river alive.

I realise it's not likely they would have survived in real life, but I accept it because them surving unrealistically is a lot better for the story than them dying.

I accept them, living as well. I don't think it was jamie's time yet anyways. And there are ways to show them living thru all of that, butit would take time... Time they insist they don't have.

On the subject of a baby born of incest. Cersei being pregnant and claiming its jamie's is one of those hmmm moments. I think the childs Eurons. Something tells me.... just something.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

33 minutes ago, David Selig said:

"Uncharacteristically lazy about the details" - my sides...

This has been one of the laziest written shows on TV for years.

Yeah, agreed, the writing has been lazy for a few seasons.  But it's too much to expect the critics who sang the praises of the show last year  to go back on their words. The best we can hope for right now is at least they won't withhold criticism for future episodes.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

5 minutes ago, darmody said:

Cersei isn't the rightful queen in Tyrion's eyes now, is the real point. She got to be fake-queen in part by blowing up the rightful queen consort, who was Marge. I don't know why you need to overcomplicate the situation. 

Anyway, you really think there was no time when Marge was the rightful queen and Cersei wasn't? Not even after the Sparrow freed Marge and she was the consort of the king, while Cersei was under house arrest in the Keep awaiting trial for--among other crimes--regicide?

(Though, as we all know, Tommen was not rightful king, even if you accept Robert as king. He was a bastard born of incest. Neither Cersei nor Marge were real queens during his or Joffrey's reigns, technically.)

Pretty sure the rightful queen in this context was Dany.

[darmody]

4 hours ago, ramla said:

How givin that everybody knows she killed the queen, and the high Septim and many many others!? I don't know.

She took the throne by force, and no one in the city cares because...the showrunners like her character, I guess. 

If anything, the crown should've gone to Jaime, who was Tommen's uncle(/father) and closest male relative. But he was out of town, so all hail Cersei?

[Jordan La Cabra]

5 minutes ago, ramla said:

I accept them, living as well. I don't think it was jamie's time yet anyways. And there are ways to show them living thru all of that, butit would take time... Time they insist they don't have.

On the subject of a baby born of incest. Cersei being pregnant and claiming its jamie's is one of those hmmm moments. I think the childs Eurons. Something tells me.... just something.

I am not even sure she is pregnant. Seemed more like a ploy to further tie Jaime around her little finger. She's that manipulative I wouldn't put anything past her.

[Ser Didymus]

1 minute ago, Gala said:

About Tormund: he doesn't know neither Beric nor his story, so it would not matter. My point is it seems logical to not letting anyone go beyond the Wall and to prevent them from going there. It is actually hard to prevent the Hound, Beric and Thoros to do what they want, thus, the dungeons is the best way to keep them. 
Anyway, I think it is just plot convenient and that's it. As you said about Gendry, for example. It was very convenient to keep them there to wait for the other key characters on their suicide mission. Although, the Hound in the Winterfell with Stark girls would be great. I really hope their reunion will happen in the books and maybe later in the show, too.

Tormund has the following people in a dungeon:

 - a man who has been killed and revived 6 times.

 - the man who says the prayers over his corpse, effectively raising him from the dead 6 times.

 - a man who KILLED the revived man, and was witness to other man reviving him.

 

i imagine a pretty fantastic scene, wherein Brienne, Sansa and Arya are all arguing about the dangers/merits of the Hound as he sits in chains, while Littlefinger hides in a corner twisting his moustache.

 

it's just dumb.  there is not other way to describe it.  Why would Jon fast-travel PAST Winterfell when both the character and the TV show have a million reasons for him to at least stop in and grab some supplies.  He could also have justified his decision to travel South to meet with Dany. 

"Hey Northern Lords who doubted me, your duly elected King.  I am back, as I said i would be.  I brought Dragonglass and a retinue of soldiers who i can choose to keep as hostages if the Dragon Queen goes down the path of her ancestors.  Also, i am about to embark on a suicide mission that could ensure the safety of mankind by bolstering our military forces, so i wanted to say hello/goodbye to my surviving siblings and my soul-mate/spirit creature, Ghost the Direwolf.  Anyone who cares to join me for a bit of wight wrasslin', come this way.  if not, stay here and prepare for battle."

[Gala]

4 minutes ago, Ser Didymus said:

Tormund has the following people in a dungeon:

 - a man who has been killed and revived 6 times.

 - the man who says the prayers over his corpse, effectively raising him from the dead 6 times.

 - a man who KILLED the revived man, and was witness to other man reviving him.

 

i imagine a pretty fantastic scene, wherein Brienne, Sansa and Arya are all arguing about the dangers/merits of the Hound as he sits in chains, while Littlefinger hides in a corner twisting his moustache.

 

it's just dumb.  there is not other way to describe it.  Why would Jon fast-travel PAST Winterfell when both the character and the TV show have a million reasons for him to at least stop in and grab some supplies.  He could also have justified his decision to travel South to meet with Dany. 

"Hey Northern Lords who doubted me, your duly elected King.  I am back, as I said i would be.  I brought Dragonglass and a retinue of soldiers who i can choose to keep as hostages if the Dragon Queen goes down the path of her ancestors.  Also, i am about to embark on a suicide mission that could ensure the safety of mankind by bolstering our military forces, so i wanted to say hello/goodbye to my surviving siblings and my soul-mate/spirit creature, Ghost the Direwolf.  Anyone who cares to join me for a bit of wight wrasslin', come this way.  if not, stay here and prepare for battle."

Yes, Tormund has those people in dungeons, but he doesn't know them, so ... He should just believed the strangers and let them pass?
 

The show became like that a long time ago, so, yes, I see your point and agree.