Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Skahaz mo Kandaq

Jon will never be king.

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In the show they will pretty much ignore the whole zombie thing and have him heroically sacrifice himself like a proper little action hero. And that isn't going to be that bad an ending within in the show framework.

Book Jon most likely is going to suffer a lot more before he can finally die for good.

And the story of the hero dying and sacrificing himself is just as much of a trope and a cliche as the the hidden Prince. 

Dying as a hero is something Jon has always dreamed about, that would be a happy ending for him. GRRM isn't just a trope breaker and subverter. He didn't have a problem with Aragon becoming the King, his problem was that we wouldn't know anything about his reign and the real problems he would have to face. We are just told that he was good King. 

GRRM has gone to great lengths to show what type of rulers Dany and Jon might be, he has devoted books to the subject so one of them will rule at the end. We follow them through their training. There are no perfect rulers in this story, that is one thing that people should remember. 

Jon doesn't want to be the King, but he has always had a great sense of duty, so even if he doesn't want to become the King he would always try to do his best. But becoming the King wouldn't be a happy ending for Jon, it would be bittersweet. The consequences of all these wars and death will affect Westeros for generations to come, just like Bubonic plague affected the European continent for years. This will not be some happy or easy task. The realm will need someone who is interested in rebuilding. 

The difference between Jon and the other leaders is that they mostly make decisions in order to stay in power, whereas Jon's main drive is to fight against the White Walkers. This leads Jon into often making hard and unpopular choices. Just like Maester Aemon told him "kill the boy." 

People don't like the idea of Jon becoming the King because of the hidden Prince trope, but GRRM has actually created a story where the Prince could realistically be qualified to become the King through experience and not because of some divine destiny. GRRM has created a story were becoming a King is not necessarily a happy position to be in. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boudica said:

And the story of the hero dying and sacrificing himself is just as much of a trope and a cliche as the the hidden Prince. 

Dying as a hero is something Jon has always dreamed about, that would be a happy ending for him. GRRM isn't just a trope breaker and subverter. He didn't have a problem with Aragon becoming the King, his problem was that we wouldn't know anything about his reign and the real problems he would have to face. We are just told that he was good King. 

GRRM has gone to great lengths to show what type of rulers Dany and Jon might be, he has devoted books to the subject so one of them will rule at the end. We follow them through their training. There are no perfect rulers in this story, that is one thing that people should remember. 

Jon doesn't want to be the King, but he has always had a great sense of duty, so even if he doesn't want to become the King he would always try to do his best. But becoming the King wouldn't be a happy ending for Jon, it would be bittersweet. The consequences of all these wars and death will affect Westeros for generations to come, just like Bubonic plague affected the European continent for years. This will not be some happy or easy task. The realm will need someone who is interested in rebuilding. 

The difference between Jon and the other leaders is that they mostly make decisions in order to stay in power, whereas Jon's main drive is to fight against the White Walkers. This leads Jon into often making hard and unpopular choices. Just like Maester Aemon told him "kill the boy." 

People don't like the idea of Jon becoming the King because of the hidden Prince trope, but GRRM has actually created a story where the Prince could realistically be qualified to become the King through experience and not because of some divine destiny. GRRM has created a story were becoming a King is not necessarily a happy position to be in. 

I never had that much problems with Jon becoming a king. I always thought he and Dany would hook up and rule the Realm together if they defeated the Others. Until I read the last Jon chapter of ADwD, that is. Then Jon was suddenly dead, and it is quite clear that a resurrected guy is not going to rule effectively or happily over some kingdom for forty or fifty years.

Dany has not died yet so she is rather likely to live. Especially considering that she is not going to defeat the Dark Lord in the show. That's Jon's job, but why should he survive that last battle? Somebody has to die.

If not then it is even more likely that both of them survive together than that Daenerys dies, leaving the zombie king to rebuild the Realm. 

And considering that Jon should be much, much worse off after his resurrection in the books it is very unlikely that he will survive and be able to be king there. And if the show sticks to that ending in some fashion they will have to kill him in the show, too. They are already building up to that by stating that Jon may have returned from the dead so that he can die again. Like Beric already did. And he, too, reached the point of final death - not as a king in his nineties, surrounded by his great-grandchildren, but within the framework of the story. And that's what should happen to Jon, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

May I suggest to the O/P to edit the title.  "Jon is unfit to be king" or something along those lines.  Saying "Jon will never be king" when the show has proven itself to lack consistency and continuity is less accurate.  

I don't like Jon and I would prefer Daenerys to rule.  She is the most qualified to rule and she has a very impressive resume.  Jon was a failure in his first real job.  His own officers fired him.

A lot good reasons have already been presented why Jon is a bad choice for king.  I won't repeat them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Beware the person who desires power, for they will do anything to anyone to achieve and maintain it.  Jon is the only one who isn't seeking power, rather having it thrust upon him by others who respect him and want him to lead.  A person willing to make hard choices and personal sacrifices for the good of the realm is what the realm needs, now more than ever.  

Dany earned everything she acquired in the east, mostly through her actions.  She got to Westeros and just started making demands and threats to otherwise good people (not slavers/masters like Astapor/Yunkai/Mereen).  Life is reflected in art here, the best leaders are not those who are capable of buying it or forcing it upon others through threats.  The best leaders are those who lead by example, sacrifice for their people, and seek to restore some form of justice.

Jon is far from perfect, but he is young (very young in the books).  Youth brings with it certain problems in leadership...but his foundation is strong and would only get stronger with age and resolution of this conflict.  If you step back and look at the big picture, Dany and Jon are strong where the other is weak...which is what I think the show runners are trying to display.  Together they can become what the realm needs, a song of ice and fire.

Jon is a breaker of vows and a deserter.  It made no sense at all that the lord of the north elected him king.  Which is not legitimate because those people had no right to choose their own king.  They are all subjects of Westeros.

Dany is doing exactly what any victor in battle would do.  Anybody, including Ned, Robert, and Aegon would demand the loser to bend the knee. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Boudica said:

Dying as a hero is something Jon has always dreamed about, that would be a happy ending for him.

GRRM has gone to great lengths to show what type of rulers Dany and Jon might be, he has devoted books to the subject so one of them will rule at the end. We follow them through their training. There are no perfect rulers in this story, that is one thing that people should remember. 

Jon doesn't want to be the King, but he has always had a great sense of duty, so even if he doesn't want to become the King he would always try to do his best. But becoming the King wouldn't be a happy ending for Jon, it would be bittersweet. The consequences of all these wars and death will affect Westeros for generations to come, just like Bubonic plague affected the European continent for years. This will not be some happy or easy task. The realm will need someone who is interested in rebuilding. 

The difference between Jon and the other leaders is that they mostly make decisions in order to stay in power, whereas Jon's main drive is to fight against the White Walkers. This leads Jon into often making hard and unpopular choices. Just like Maester Aemon told him "kill the boy." 

People don't like the idea of Jon becoming the King because of the hidden Prince trope, but GRRM has actually created a story where the Prince could realistically be qualified to become the King through experience and not because of some divine destiny. GRRM has created a story were becoming a King is not necessarily a happy position to be in.

Good points above!

If Jon can't be a good king because he has made mistakes in the past, then by that reasoning Dany cannot be a good queen either.

If Jon becomes king, it would be out of a sense of duty, not a desire for power, (like Aragorn in the LOTR).  While that is no guarantee he would be a good king, it does mean he'd be less likely to abuse his power and that is am important quality in a good ruler.  He also has proven his ability to see the bigger picture, as when he brought the wildlings across the wall, and the willingness to act upon what he knows is best even when it is not popular.  To criticize him for his failure to convince half of the NW to see past thousand year old prejudices is ludicrous.  (Besides the fact it's not how Martin wanted the story to go.) 

He did also show surprising political intuition when he insisted that he must be the one to answer Dany's summons cuz any less would be an insult to her.  He was the one convince Dany that torching the Red Keep would be more of the same, when what inspired her followers in the first place was her compassion. 

I'm not saying Jon would be a good king, but he has the potential to be, and those who think he couldn't are ignoring about half of his character arc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want Jon or Dany to rule but what is the point of making Jon, a legimate son of Rheagar in the show if he's not going to be King?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He is already King, your argument is silly. He was Lord Commander. He is also unnoficially King of the Wildlings (they do everything he says).

If he marries Dany he gets to be King of the Iron Throne.

But in my opinion both Dany and Jon will die and maybe Dany will have a Son who will inherit the IronThrone. Maybe Sansa will be queen regent or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

He is already King, your argument is silly. He was Lord Commander. He is also unnoficially King of the Wildlings (they do everything he says).

If he marries Dany he gets to be King of the Iron Throne.

But in my opinion both Dany and Jon will die and maybe Dany will have a Son who will inherit the IronThrone. Maybe Sansa will be queen regent or something.

I suspect Gendry will be legitimized and become King of the Iron Throne.  To me that's the most poetic.  After all the machinations it ends up being Robert's son that rules.  

As for his Queen...  I suspect it might end up being Sansa.  Thus Robert and Ned's wishes that their houses finally be united actually comes to pass.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

I suspect Gendry will be legitimized and become King of the Iron Throne.  To me that's the most poetic.  After all the machinations it ends up being Robert's son that rules.  

As for his Queen...  I suspect it might end up being Sansa.  Thus Robert and Ned's wishes that their houses finally be united actually comes to pass.  

I have carried around a tinfoil theory that Gendry was the baby Cersei told everyone she aborted, this because Gendry was actually Robert's child with her.  A much simpler explanation is that Jon, as KoTN could make him legitimate!!!!  I agree, if there is an iron throne at the end, Gendry Baratheon on the throne with Sansa is kind of fitting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I have carried around a tinfoil theory that Gendry was the baby Cersei told everyone she aborted, this because Gendry was actually Robert's child with her.  A much simpler explanation is that Jon, as KoTN could make him legitimate!!!!  I agree, if there is an iron throne at the end, Gendry Baratheon on the throne with Sansa is kind of fitting. 

That bit in the show about Cersie's baby son that died of sickness... turns out that the scene was created by D&D to pad their episode length in season 1.  

I'd actually written Gendry off since he's been gone so long. Last episode I had to reevaluate, obviously.  Granted, his appearance could be complete fanservice, but if he doesn't die in the next two episodes I have to assume he plays a significant part in the end game. 

Gendry on the throne just feels right somehow.

If it happens I wonder if he changes the Baratheon coat of arms to a bull. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Intel XEON said:

Jon is a breaker of vows and a deserter.  It made no sense at all that the lord of the north elected him king.  Which is not legitimate because those people had no right to choose their own king.  They are all subjects of Westeros.

Dany is doing exactly what any victor in battle would do.  Anybody, including Ned, Robert, and Aegon would demand the loser to bend the knee. 

His vows clearly stated that he had to be a black brother until his end. And his end has come. If you're going to argue that he's dead and is basically a fire wight by now, you can't argue that he should stay at Nights Watch because he swore to stay until he dies,he already did die.

People in the North did have a right to choose their own kings, just as they have chosen  Robb before. They have declared themselves as independent and rose in rebellion against the current ruling power because they do not see it as legitimate, and as far as I can see, Daenerys has not won any kingdoms out of 7, so she can hardly be called the queen of Westeros, she needs to conquer it first. Until such time that either Cersei or Dany defeat The North and force his vassal to bend the knee, he is the King in the North. And Dany can't force him to bend the knee until she defeated him in the battle, which she didn't. He came to her on a diplomatic mission, that doesn't make him a loser or her a winner. Yes, she could pull a Frey on him and murder a guest, but they won't be a victory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, btfu806 said:

But unfortunately, I see no other reason for D&D to legitimize him unless they plan for him to make a run at the throne (or maybe just "threaten" to make a run at the throne? IDK).

Maybe they did it because.......

wait for it....

Martin did it.

People never think of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

I suspect Gendry will be legitimized and become King of the Iron Throne.  To me that's the most poetic.  After all the machinations it ends up being Robert's son that rules.  

As for his Queen...  I suspect it might end up being Sansa.  Thus Robert and Ned's wishes that their houses finally be united actually comes to pass.  

Gendry King? He doesnt know how to read or write, he would be just like Robert, that would be so bad. He cant even be a decent Hand. Just put him in the Kingsguard or give him the Stormlands.

I think a funny ending would be for Robin Arryn to get the IronThron and marry Sansa. lol She would be pissed, but Robin is so sick he would die young and Sansa would be queen and a widow forever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Gendry King? He doesnt know how to read or write, he would be just like Robert, that would be so bad. He cant even be a decent Hand. Just put him in the Kingsguard or give him the Stormlands.

It took Davos what, two or three episodes to learn to read?  Now he's correcting everyone's grammar.  Gendry can learn to read.

Also... how would he be just like Robert?  He wasn't raised by Robert.  He never knew Robert.  

Besides, I added Sansa into the mix.  She can do the heavy lifting when it comes to playing the game of thrones and actually ruling.  Gendry can handle the heavy lifting when it comes to... uh... lifting heavy things.  

Theres also Arya.  You know she'd be on the small council. Master of whispers indeed.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

It took Davos what, two or three episodes to learn to read?  Now he's correcting everyone's grammar.  Gendry can learn to read.

Also... how would he be just like Robert?  He wasn't raised by Robert.  He never knew Robert.  

Besides, I added Sansa into the mix.  She can do the heavy lifting when it comes to playing the game of thrones and actually ruling.  Gendry can handle the heavy lifting when it comes to... uh... lifting heavy things.  

Theres also Arya.  You know she'd be on the small council. Master of whispers indeed.  

Provide evidence for Gendry becoming king, or else it is just wishful thinking. Not only would he need to prove his heritage, through physical evidence - looks alone only get you so far. And once you pass that hurdle, which lords would back him? Almost all of them don't even know he exists. And you haven't even made an argument for why Gendry would want a crown, when he has never shown any intention of wanting power aside from independence to choose how to live his own life.

Why would Sansa want to marry Gendry? For power? This assumes both Jon and Daenerys will have to die for that to happen. Why write Jon as being an hidden Targaryen if not to actually use that plot for a better propose then just dying... With both Jon and Dany, George got the inspiration from history. I think it was during the Hundred year war, when one of the princes was smuggled out of the country and raised in secret, only to come back and conquer and become King of England. Either Jon or Daenerys will become king\queen, or they will get into a political marriage to unify the North and South, and restart the Targaryen Dynasty.

 

Why are people hoping for the Targaryen Dynasty to become extinct? Why build them up only to have some other nobody take the throne?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Provide evidence for Gendry becoming king, or else it is just wishful thinking. 

Relax professor.  

First of all, it isn't wishful thinking because that would require that I wish it would happen.  Secondly, I'm not going to "provide evidence" for a fun little bit of theorycrafting that came about literally because of Gendry's sudden and unexpected reappearance.  

Also, do you have inside information from GRRM?  Because you seem to already know how the series ends.  That's pretty cool.  Maybe you can tell GRRM to let the rest of us read his last two books.  I'd also like to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, how everything turns out.   ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

 

 

Why are people hoping for the Targaryen Dynasty to become extinct? Why build them up only to have some other nobody take the throne?

As of now Dany can't reproduce, so the dynasty would die from her end, unless Jon reproduces with another woman. However, he has died already once don't know if he can still have children....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Crona said:

As of now Dany can't reproduce, so the dynasty would die from her end, unless Jon reproduces with another woman. However, he has died already once don't know if he can still have children....

I get the feeling that Dany might be fertile and Mirri Maz Dur was just trying to upset her. Jon's ability to father children is indeed a mystery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I get the feeling that Dany might be fertile and Mirri Maz Dur was just trying to upset her. Jon's ability to father children is indeed a mystery.

Did she take any contraceptives when she was with Daario? If not then she should've had a kid with him if she was fertile. But I do think she will magically become fertile with Jon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Crona said:

Did she take any contraceptives when she was with Daario? If not then she should've had a kid with him if she was fertile. But I do think she will magically become fertile with Jon

One way D& D can resolve this infertility issue is the fact that both Jon and Daenerys have been touched by magic. Dany in her rebirth, and Jon through his resurrection. In both cases, fire was involved, whether physically or otherwise. The fact that Jon is also Targaryen could be what allows her to conceive a child should they have sex - maybe he is the only who can impregnate her? Since they both believe she is infertile, he won't be on his 'pullout' game :P Also, the reason Targaryen have been keeping their bloodline pure is to keep their strong connection with the dragons. This is the most logical outcome, I think.

And the Targaryen Dynasty must continue. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×