Cat the Most selfish Women in all the seven Kingdoms

[Pikachu101]

28 minutes ago, devilish said:

Ned made a mess out of everything. However you have to agree that its cruel to kick a boy out of his home. 

But she didn't kick him out because she doesn't have the authority to do so

[mormont]

27 minutes ago, devilish said:

Ned made a mess out of everything. However you have to agree that its cruel to kick a boy out of his home. 

You are remembering that at the same time, Ned takes Arya and Sansa with him to King's Landing and was going to take Bran as well? None of them got a say in whether they would go, so weren't they also being kicked out of their home? And is Ned's refusing to allow Jon to go to KL any better than Cat's refusing to allow him to stay in WF? If so, why?

Or is the whole situation perhaps a touch more complicated than you're painting it?

[devilish]

1 minute ago, Pikachu101 said:

But she didn't kick him out because she doesn't have the authority to do so

We're really nitpicking here. 

[devilish]

6 minutes ago, mormont said:

You are remembering that at the same time, Ned takes Arya and Sansa with him to King's Landing and was going to take Bran as well? None of them got a say in whether they would go, so weren't they also being kicked out of their home? And is Ned's refusing to allow Jon to go to KL any better than Cat's refusing to allow him to stay in WF? If so, why?

Or is the whole situation perhaps a touch more complicated than you're painting it?

Sansa was going to marry the king's son. So its only fair for her to go to KL. I also have a feeling that Ned was taking Arya there to try and arrange a decent marriage for her as well. 

Jon is a bastard of a king whose got a horde of bastards, none of which had managed to make it to court. How do you think Jon would be treated there? As Ned said taking him to KL would have been cruel. 

Cat also worked hard against Jon even after Robb died. She went to ridiculous extent to justify her position not to legitimise Jon. 

[devilish]

7 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

What she wants isn't right. It is cruel that she would want Jon to have to leave the only home he has ever known. But she alone is not the reason he joined the Night's Watch. Jon knew he would never inherit anything from Ned at Winterfell. Jon thought the Night's Watch was still a noble organisation. He came up with the idea of joining it himself, making a name for himself there. That was nothing to do with Catelyn.

As said Ned inability to think of Jon's future was wrong. I am not Ned's fanboy. However we're not judging Ned here but Cat. Kicking him out was cruel. Ned said it, I agree with it...but its evident neither of us read the books. Only @moonmoon did

 

[mormont]

9 minutes ago, devilish said:

Sansa was going to marry the king's son. So its only fair for her to go to KL. I also have a feeling that Ned was taking Arya there to try and arrange a decent marriage for her as well. 

I'm not sure how this answers my question. These are the reasons why they were being kicked out: so far as I can see, they don't explain whether that was any better than Jon's situation.

Quote

Jon is a bastard of a king whose got a horde of bastards, none of which had managed to make it to court. How do you think Jon would be treated there? 

This is transparently an excuse Ned uses as a fig leaf to hide the real reason why he refuses to take Jon. Noble bastards have managed to make a name for themselves at court despite this disadvantage, and Jon at court would have opportunities he would never have in Winterfell under Cat.

In any case, Ned does not ask Jon or consider his feelings about the question of going to KL, any more than he considers how difficult it will be for Jon and Cat to leave him in WF. So is Ned's lack of consideration better, or worse, than Cat refusing to put them both in a tense situation?

[Moonmoon]

Yes, it really seems like it that only I read the books. If you copy paste summary to make a point then what more can I say? 

My argument was that Cat was indifferent to jon. Other than that bran scene she never did or said anything mean to him. So, she was never cruel to him. She hates his existence but she never did anything to him. Even let him be close with her kids. What more do you expect from her? She has no obligation to love her husband's bastard. She isn't his stepmother as jon was born after the marriage. Bastards are considered shame in their society. They aren't raised along with true born children in any household. Bringing a bastard to a nobleborn woman like cat was a big slap to her face. And not telling her about the mother is even worse. Cat tolerated jon for years and when ned told her to keep him in winterfell, she had enough of it. Can you imagine yourself living with someone you hate? Cat isn't an angel. She is a normal flawed woman. How many of you would accept a bastard? You won't even tolerate cheating let alone a bastard. Having a bastard is not honorable but is still acceptable in westros, however, raising one is NOT. Ned was putting both cat and jon in a uncomfortable situation. It was his decision to raise jon so he should take care of him himself. Cat has no obligation as she never agreed to it. Ned called her "cruel" more like emotional blackmail because she wasn't accepting his arrangement, not because she was cruel to jon on daily basis. 

And for the last time, jon was not kicked out, he decided to join night's watch BEFORE the argument of keeping him in winterfell took place. He is a bastard so its not like he had much choices to choose from. He thought night's watch was cool and decided to join. He won't regret going there if it wasn't by his own choice and he was forced to, right?

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 minutes ago, mormont said:

I'm not sure how this answers my question. These are the reasons why they were being kicked out: so far as I can see, they don't explain whether that was any better than Jon's situation.

This is transparently an excuse Ned uses as a fig leaf to hide the real reason why he refuses to take Jon. Noble bastards have managed to make a name for themselves at court despite this disadvantage, and Jon at court would have opportunities he would never have in Winterfell under Cat.

In any case, Ned does not ask Jon or consider his feelings about the question of going to KL, any more than he considers how difficult it will be for Jon and Cat to leave him in WF. So is Ned's lack of consideration better, or worse, than Cat refusing to put them both in a tense situation?

Maester Luwin told Eddard that Jon had expressed an interest in taking the black before it was decided that Jon would go with Benjen. When approached the next day, I can't imagine the boy said, "Nah, I was just kidding. I would rather stay here with my step mum." 

[devilish]

2 minutes ago, Moonmoon said:

Yes, it really seems like it that only I read the books. If you copy paste summary to make a point then what more can I say? 

My argument was that Cat was indifferent to jon. Other than that bran scene she never did or said anything mean to him. So, she was never cruel to him. She hates his existence but she never did anything to him. Even let him be close with her kids. What more do you expect from her? She has no obligation to love her husband's bastard. She isn't his stepmother as jon was born after the marriage. Bastards are considered shame in their society. They aren't raised along with true born children in any household. Bringing a bastard to a nobleborn woman like cat was a big slap to her face. And not telling her about the mother is even worse. Cat tolerated jon for years and when ned told her to keep him in winterfell, she had enough of it. Can you imagine yourself living with someone you hate? Cat isn't an angel. She is a normal flawed woman. How many of you would accept a bastard? You won't even tolerate cheating let alone a bastard. Having a bastard is not honorable but is still acceptable in westros, however, raising one is NOT. Ned was putting both cat and jon in a uncomfortable situation. It was his decision to raise jon so he should take care of him himself. Cat has no obligation as she never agreed to it. Ned called her "cruel" more like emotional blackmail because she wasn't accepting his arrangement, not because she was cruel to jon on daily basis. 

Even Ned agreed that she's being cruel. But maybe he didn't read the book either

[Moonmoon]

9 minutes ago, devilish said:

Even Ned agreed that she's being cruel. But maybe he didn't read the book either

Emotional blackmail. "If you don't agree with me, you are a terrible person!" He didn't say she was ALWAYS cruel to jon, did he? Plus ned is the selfish one here. He doesn't care about cat's or jon's feelings on the matter. He's forcing his responsibility on her. Cat is not admirable here but she has a fair reason for not accepting his demand. 

[devilish]

16 minutes ago, mormont said:

I'm not sure how this answers my question. These are the reasons why they were being kicked out: so far as I can see, they don't explain whether that was any better than Jon's situation.

This is transparently an excuse Ned uses as a fig leaf to hide the real reason why he refuses to take Jon. Noble bastards have managed to make a name for themselves at court despite this disadvantage, and Jon at court would have opportunities he would never have in Winterfell under Cat.

In any case, Ned does not ask Jon or consider his feelings about the question of going to KL, any more than he considers how difficult it will be for Jon and Cat to leave him in WF. So is Ned's lack of consideration better, or worse, than Cat refusing to put them both in a tense situation?

Sansa was moving to her fiancee's place, a person she had a crush on. I doubt that she would interpret that as 'being kicked out'. With Arya things are slightly different. I have a feeling Ned didn't want the naughty one in Winterfell while Bran is dying (coma = dying in medieval mindset). In KL Ned would probably also find a decent husband for her.  Neither of the two were kicked out. 

Things are different for Jon. In KL he would be shunned (Ned's words) and Cat made it obvious that she didn't want him around in Winterfell either. Bastards might have made a name for themselves in the past under the Targs but the Targs are gone, Cersei doesn't like them (reminds her of her husband's bastards) and the queen is the queen. You don't get past to that.

 

 

 

[the trees have eyes]

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The tress

 

No I am fairly convinced re Robb being Brandon's son. The timing and the dates fit MUCH better and it explains Ned's behaviour.  We KNOW Brandon was a loose screw and had no qualms about taking a girl's virginity (at least if we believe lady Dustin) so I cannot see why we would not assume he would take liberties with Catelyn. She adored him.  The tully girls seemed to have no chaperone.

We sort of know that Ned was in love with Asahra Dayne, otherwise why hush the story of Jon so very, very much.  Somehow i find it hard to believe that Ned married Catelyn while still in love with another, unless there was very, very good cause. Her pregnancy seems a probable one. 

 

 

I know there is no real point in arguing with someone over a pet theory of theirs but I'll give it a brief whirl:

There is no hint in the books that Robb is a bastard or that Cat ever had any pre-marital relations.  She is a POV and we see her thoughts throughout three books but nowhere is there any vague hint or shadow of some secret regarding Robb or Brandon or regret that she had deceived Ned throughout their marriage.  That's actually a neat yet ugly trick by you to reverse the roles of Ned and Catelyn and make Cat the one who brought a bastard back to Winterfell and forced Ned to raise him.  Perhaps the symmetry appeals to you and it legitimises your dislike of Cat to lay imaginary wrongs at her door.

The only questions over Cat's virginity are started by Petyr Baelish who misremembers drunkenly sleeping with Lysa as sleeping with Cat and spreads those lies at Court.  When Tyrion throws that in her face on the road to the Eyrie (as Jaime does later at Riverrun) she indignantly denies it and says Ned knows the truth of her "maidenhood" on their wedding night [sic].  No doubt you'll claim she lied but we're in her head and there's no hint there or anywhere else that she isn't simply outraged by a scandalous lie and is herself being truthful.

As to the timeline: unless Cat had the longest pregnancy ever there is no way for Brandon to have fathered Robb

1. Cat is at Riverrun.

2. Rhaegar seizes Lyanna somewhere in the Riverlands.

3. Brandon, who is not at Riverrun, but somewhere in the Riverlands, rides to KL looking for Rhaegar.

4. Aerys arrests Brandon and summons Rickard to KL.  Rickard comes all the way from Winterfell.

5. Rickard is killed by Aerys who also orders Jon Arryn to kill Ned and Robert.  Ned is at The Eyrie.

6. Ned returns to the North, raises his banners and marches his forces south.

7. Ned and Jon travel to Riverrun for the double marriage and Ned leaves immediately to continue the war.

8. Cat remains at Riverrun and has an utterly normal and unremarkable pregnancy.  Nowhere is it ever stated that this was unusually long even by a week or two.

Unless you think the characters have teleportation skills there is no way for the months that elapse between Cat last seeing Brandon and her marrying Ned to allow Brandon to be Robb's father. 

Unless you think Cat was pregnant for over a year this pet theory is simply impossible.

[Moonmoon]

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maester Luwin told Eddard that Jon had expressed an interest in taking the black before it was decided that Jon would go with Benjen. When approached the next day, I can't imagine the boy said, "Nah, I was just kidding. I would rather stay here with my step mum." 

She's not even his "stepmom"

[the trees have eyes]

5 minutes ago, devilish said:

Sansa was moving to her fiancee's place, a person she had a crush on. I doubt that she would interpret that as 'being kicked out'. With Arya things are slightly different. I have a feeling Ned didn't want the naughty one in Winterfell while Bran is dying (coma = dying in medieval mindset). In KL Ned would probably also find a decent husband for her.  Neither of the two were kicked out. 

Things are different for Jon. In KL he would be shunned (Ned's words) and Cat made it obvious that she didn't want him around in Winterfell either. Bastards might have made a name for themselves in the past under the Targs but the Targs are gone, Cersei doesn't like them (reminds her of her husband's bastards) and the queen is the queen. You don't get past to that.

 

 

 

And yet it's Jon's wish to join the NW, an idea that he comes up with all on his own.  Cat seizes on it as a way to get Ned to act on her desire to get Jon out of Winterfell but as with your insistence that Cat "forced" Ned to accept the position of Hand and go to KL you seem myopic in denying any other character agency or the ability to make their own choices.  A bit more balance would really help here.

[fiatlux]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Sansa was going to marry the king's son. So its only fair for her to go to KL. I also have a feeling that Ned was taking Arya there to try and arrange a decent marriage for her as well. 

Jon is a bastard of a king whose got a horde of bastards, none of which had managed to make it to court. How do you think Jon would be treated there? As Ned said taking him to KL would have been cruel. 

Cat also worked hard against Jon even after Robb died. She went to ridiculous extent to justify her position not to legitimise Jon. 

true, she worked hard, but were her objections so ridiculous? As quoted before, she mentions the Blackfyres, Arya (plus Theon's recent betrayal)

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, devilish said:

Sansa was moving to her fiancee's place, a person she had a crush on. I doubt that she would interpret that as 'being kicked out'. With Arya things are slightly different. I have a feeling Ned didn't want the naughty one in Winterfell while Bran is dying (coma = dying in medieval mindset). In KL Ned would probably also find a decent husband for her.  Neither of the two were kicked out. 

Things are different for Jon. In KL he would be shunned (Ned's words) and Cat made it obvious that she didn't want him around in Winterfell either. Bastards might have made a name for themselves in the past under the Targs but the Targs are gone, Cersei doesn't like them (reminds her of her husband's bastards) and the queen is the queen. You don't get past to that.

 

 

 

Yet, Cersei appointed Ser Aurane Waters, a bastard Velaryon, to the Small Council.

Being the bastard son of the Hand at Court gives you plenty of opportunity for advancement.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maester Luwin told Eddard that Jon had expressed an interest in taking the black before it was decided that Jon would go with Benjen. When approached the next day, I can't imagine the boy said, "Nah, I was just kidding. I would rather stay here with my step mum." 

This is true: however, before Ned knew about this, he had already decided that Jon couldn't come to court and would have to remain at WF with Cat. In fact, the thing that prompts Luwin to tell Ned about Jon's interest is when Ned says exactly that.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Sansa was moving to her fiancee's place, a person she had a crush on. I doubt that she would interpret that as 'being kicked out'. With Arya things are slightly different. I have a feeling Ned didn't want the naughty one in Winterfell while Bran is dying (coma = dying in medieval mindset). In KL Ned would probably also find a decent husband for her. 

None of this is really relevant, though, because neither of them were asked. In fact we know that Sansa was delighted to go: but the point is that even if she'd been horrified, she'd still have been going. All six of the kids are disposed of by the adults without consultation - in fact, one gets the impression that Ned expects his word alone to decide for all of them. Which is fine, in context, because he's their father and their liege lord so he can do that. But the point remains that Jon, here, was treated no differently that the others: the adults got to decide whether they stayed or not. If they'd wanted to stay, the response would have been 'tough, you're going'. Or, to put it another way, they'd have been kicked out.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Things are different for Jon. In KL he would be shunned (Ned's words) and Cat made it obvious that she didn't want him around in Winterfell either. Bastards might have made a name for themselves in the past under the Targs but the Targs are gone, Cersei doesn't like them (reminds her of her husband's bastards) and the queen is the queen. You don't get past to that.

At no point is it suggested that Cersei dislikes any bastards other than Robert's. And again, Ned is offering that 'shunning' bit as an excuse.

[Jordan La Cabra]

56 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yet, Cersei appointed Ser Aurane Waters, a bastard Velaryon, to the Small Council.

Being the bastard son of the Hand at Court gives you plenty of opportunity for advancement.

Was part of the reason she appointed him to the role of Master of Ships not because she thought he desired her and she found he looked somewhat like Rhaegar Targaryen?

Being bastard of the King's Hand would definitely have been different from being a random bastard. But the Lannisters had it in for Ned Stark; had Ned brought his bastard to King's Landing, I am sure Cersei would have tried to sabotage Jon's time there.

This is a sheer presumption based on the theory of Jon being Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar's son, but if that is the case, Ned may have wanted to keep Jon away from Robert. If somehow Robert was able to find out who Jon really was, surely he would want him dead, as one of the last living Targaryens and a reminder of the fact that Rhaegar took Lyanna from him.

[Ran]

@JordanJH1993

That's exactly what Mormont is implying regarding Ned's "shunning" remark is an excuse to cover his real reason why he doesn't want to risk having Jon in King's Landing.

I think, if Jon hadn't blabbed about the Watch, that the obvious solution would have been to make him squire for some lord like Galbart Glover or Wyman Manderly or even Medger Cerwyn (who has the advantage of being very near to Winterfell, so Jon would be able to visit without actually staying there extensively, thereby avoiding antagonizing Catelyn). There's really no reason why Ned didn't do this.

 

Re: Lonnel Snow and Brandon Snow, there's no evidence any Stark bastards were ever raised in Winterfell before Jon Snow (unless we want to count the legendary offspring of Bael the Bard, if he ever really existed), including these. It's not at all weird that a bastard son, fostered out, might end up coming back into the household as a man-at-arms or adviser, of course.

[Jordan La Cabra]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

@JordanJH1993

That's exactly what Mormont is implying regarding Ned's "shunning" remark is an excuse to cover his real reason why he doesn't want to risk having Jon in King's Landing.

I think, if Jon hadn't blabbed about the Watch, that the obvious solution would have been to make him squire for some lord like Galbart Glover or Wyman Manderly or even Medger Cerwyn (who has the advantage of being very near to Winterfell, so Jon would be able to visit without actually staying there extensively, thereby avoiding antagonizing Catelyn). There's really no reason why Ned didn't do this.

 

Re: Lonnel Snow and Brandon Snow, there's no evidence any Stark bastards were ever raised in Winterfell before Jon Snow (unless we want to count the legendary offspring of Bael the Bard, if he ever really existed), including these. It's not at all weird that a bastard son, fostered out, might end up coming back into the household as a man-at-arms or adviser, of course.

Yes, in a perfect world, there would have been many great alternatives for Jon rather than having to join the Night's Watch. Considering the Starks have been one of the families that have always respected the Night's Watch, I'm sure as soon as the idea of Jon going there was put to Ned it would have made perfect sense having Jon there along with Benjen.  

But more than this, he would be at the other end of the continent, as far away from Robert as possible. Not that Jon had any titles as a bastard, but with joining the Watch he was made to swear to give up any he had, which would maybe keep Jon safe if his 'true' parentage came out during Robert's lifetime.