Cat the Most selfish Women in all the seven Kingdoms

[Sigella]

On 2017-08-21 at 7:02 PM, TMIFairy said:

No.

Cersei ... 

Yeah Cersei.  Shae also kind of stands out. And Sansa's I-forgot-to-ask-about-Arya-moment isnt pretty either.

 

Cat isnt selfish, she's rigid and a bit thick, but not selfish.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

I swear to R'holler Cat hate is just the same recycled straw man argument over and over again, it's getting old and needs to stop

As Martin’s story goes I want Cat aka LSH to get vengeance on the Frey’s and those who conspired in & participated in the Red Wedding. It’s a work of fiction. I can root for who I want to.

Would you agree that individuals criticisms of a book character does not equal hate. Hate is such a strong word with so many connotations.

The Lady of WF, Eddard's wife annoyed me. In story she had a lot of grief to deal with. Eddard dies, she thinks Bran and Rickon are dead, Sansa & Arya are out of her reach, Robb dies and WF has been destroyed.

I hope Martin lets LSH get her revenge before someone puts her out of her misery.

 

[Makk]

On 8/26/2017 at 0:41 AM, Moonmoon said:

"we have only seen a tiny portion of their relationship on page so there were many other times she may have been as nasty"

GRRM said she never was cruel to him other than that one rare occasion with bran so that isn't true no matter how much you want it to be. I was only talking about her treatment of him i.e. how she acted towards him on daily basis. Whatever thoughts she had about him or whatever she said to ned doesn't make her abusive or cruel to jon as she never said it in front of him so he won't know.

You can't force someone love another person, right? Cat is totally justified to feel what she felt towards jon. She does not have any obligation to love her husband's bastard. Ned knew how she felt but still raised him in the same house. Why does she have to take care of him? Btw when cat and ned were arguing about jon, ned didn't know that jon told benjen about his plans to join night's watch. Ned accepted it once he realised its jon's own choice. 

Btw if cat actually treated jon so badly she won't have let her kids play or interact with him. Sansa referred to him as half-brother because that's what her society taught her. Robb, arya and bran were all close to jon. Why didn't cat stop them? Or she could have told jon to stay away from her kids. She DIDN'T. And if you say that it was because she was afraid of ned then she wouldn't be cruel to jon for the same reasons, right?

Jon didn't join night's watch because of cat. What would be his future if he stayed in winterfell? He wouldn't inherit anything. He couldn't be a knight. You forget that he was as romantic as sansa who believed night's watch men were these great men like his uncle benjen. He joined night's watch on his own terms. He was already thinking about joining it before ned was even offered the hand's position. He talked to benjen about joining it during dinner when the royal family arrived to winterfell. 

Jon never said anything like that about cat either. If cat really was cruel to him offscreen, atleast he would have thought about it at some point but he didn't. If you can't accept the author's statement about his character then I don't know what to say to you.

Do you actually have the quote so we know what he said. If your only basis for argument was a quote that is not in the material you should at least provide it.

I listed a bunch of times which provide evidence that she not only didn't love him, but that she was actually afraid of him and disliked him immensely. It's an understanderble hatred I am not arguing against that. Just your comment that she was only ever cruel to him one time doesn't wash with me at all. Every single time their relationship is mentioned in the books, she is portrayed this way.

Of course doing things behind his back counts. In fact its even worse. Is Littlefinger excused for getting Ned's head chopped off because he talked to Joffery while Ned couldn't hear? 

I listed Jon's thoughts which proved she was at best unpleasant to him off screen. He did think about it!!! 

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Would you agree that individuals criticisms of a book character does not equal hate. Hate is such a strong word with so many connotations.

I'm fine with criticism, the thing is when it comes to Cat people just hate on her for the most ludicrous of reasons

[Joy Hill]

Cat, while selfish at times, can also be unselfish and considerate. Off the top of my head, I remember her :

-comforting an unhappy Lynesse Hightower

-going out of her way to make sure all the oarsmen who carry her to KL get a silver coin

-trying to put Brienne at ease

Granted, those are no more than simple little decent acts. Still, that's more than enough to make her less selfish than Cersei. Or even Shae, for that matter.

LS might be utterly selfish, though.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

I'm fine with criticism, the thing is when it comes to Cat people just hate on her for the most ludicrous of reasons

I can agree with that.

[Clegane'sPup]

My take on it is that she is indifferent toward Jon. From what I read she doesn’t seem to go out of her way to make his life miserable.

The children shared rooms. They ate at the same table (except when the King Robert & his Queen came to visit). Eddard raised Jon with his & Cat’s children.

In story Cat is resentful that Jon looks more Stark than her own children. She is fearful that this bastard child will usurp her son.

Cat resents Jon & his place in Eddard’s heart and the tirade in Bran’s room shows that resentment.

Cat, Martin’s character lacks the information that Eddard is trying to protect his nephew (if R+ L is true).

Do I need to get into all the false leads as to who Jon’s mother is/was?

If in this frekking never-ending story Jon Snow is Eddard Stark’s nephew and Eddard’s wife believes Jon Snow is Eddard’s bastard I can see a conflict of interest betwixt the husband and wife.

I don’t like the Lady of WF, Eddard’s wife. I do hope LSH gets revenge for the destruction of Eddard’s house.

[Curled Finger]

You explained yourself well there @Clegane'sPup.   I especially like where you went with the very precise time and description of your Cat dissatisfaction, Lady of WF, Eddard's wife.   It's another side to her character and not one many folks even recall after the Red Wedding.   

Is Cat the most selfish woman in the 7 kingdoms?   Nah.   Cersei has that totally locked up.   Catelyn Tully Stark had other far worse problems than selfishness.   I don't even think LSH can truly be called selfish in her ptsd and er, life after death.   

[Moonmoon]

2 hours ago, Makk said:

Do you actually have the quote so we know what he said. If your only basis for argument was a quote that is not in the material you should at least provide it.

I listed a bunch of times which provide evidence that she not only didn't love him, but that she was actually afraid of him and disliked him immensely. It's an understanderble hatred I am not arguing against that. Just your comment that she was only ever cruel to him one time doesn't wash with me at all. Every single time their relationship is mentioned in the books, she is portrayed this way.

Of course doing things behind his back counts. In fact its even worse. Is Littlefinger excused for getting Ned's head chopped off because he talked to Joffery while Ned couldn't hear? 

I listed Jon's thoughts which proved she was at best unpleasant to him off screen. He did think about it!!! 

I thought everyone and their mother knows that quote by now so I didn't bother but here you go

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1042/

If you still can't accept the author's words then we have nothing more to talk about.

[Gaz0680]

Noone has ever been as truly selfish and self-serving as Cersei. Cat doesn't come anywhere close.

 

[SerMudz]

I never forgave her for her ridiculous treatment of Jon. If you don't like the fact your husband brought a bastard home then direct your hate at your husband, it's not Jon's fault. I thought it was disgusting and a part of me enjoyed seeing her die in the Red Wedding.

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, SerMudz said:

I never forgave her for her ridiculous treatment of Jon. If you don't like the fact your husband brought a bastard home then direct your hate at your husband, it's not Jon's fault. I thought it was disgusting and a part of me enjoyed seeing her die in the Red Wedding.

Nice sentiment dude. Thanks for sharing.

[Ran]

9 hours ago, SerMudz said:

I never forgave her for her ridiculous treatment of Jon. If you don't like the fact your husband brought a bastard home then direct your hate at your husband, it's not Jon's fault. I thought it was disgusting and a part of me enjoyed seeing her die in the Red Wedding.

She didn't direct any hate at Jon, outside of that single, extraordinary incident in which she was exhausted both physically and emotionally. She directed nothing toward him -- he was someone in Winterfell, who was not her kin or guest or friend, and that's it. She was as distant from him as she was some random scullion in the kitchens. Does she hates the scullion? No. But they're just... there. So with Jon, as Ned's say-so. That Jon figured out she'd rather not have him around is Ned's fault, not hers.

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

She didn't direct any hate at Jon, outside of that single, extraordinary incident in which she was exhausted both physically and emotionally. She directed nothing toward him -- he was someone in Winterfell, who was not her kin or guest or friend, and that's it. She was as distant from him as she was some random scullion in the kitchens. Does she hates the scullion? No. But they're just... there. So with Jon, as Ned's say-so. That Jon figured out she'd rather not have him around is Ned's fault, not hers.

 

 

 

But of course the average kitchen scullion doesn't represent the potential threat to her children's inheritance that Jon does.  Which is something that Cat seems keenly aware of.  All it would take was Ned asking his friend, the King, to legitimize Jon. 

[Jordan La Cabra]

9 hours ago, SerMudz said:

I never forgave her for her ridiculous treatment of Jon. If you don't like the fact your husband brought a bastard home then direct your hate at your husband, it's not Jon's fault. I thought it was disgusting and a part of me enjoyed seeing her die in the Red Wedding.

She hardly deserved to die due to one comment she was seen passing to Jon. Horrible and spiteful as it was, she was in a period of high distress when Jon, someone she had no love for, appeared beside her.  She needed to lash out at someone and Jon was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Had Jon been that upset about it, I am sure he would have ranted to  Robb when Robb as much as presented him with the chance immediately afterwards. But he held it in as he understood her pain in that moment.

[Jordan La Cabra]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But of course the average kitchen scullion doesn't represent the potential threat to her children's inheritance that Jon does.  Which is something that Cat seems keenly aware of.  All it would take was Ned asking his friend, the King, to legitimize Jon. 

Given who Jon may actually be, I would have thought Ned would want Robert to have as little to do with Jon as possible.

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Given who Jon may actually be, I would have thought Ned would want Robert to have as little to do with Jon as possible.

Yet, interestingly enough it doesn't seem that Ned is bothered at all by Robert's visit to Winterfell.  Nor does Eddard make any attempt to hide Jon from Robert.  In fact the entire procession walks right by Jon and his direwolf on the way to the feast.  Cersei even takes note of him.  And the only reason he wasn't at the table was because Cat didn't want to add any legitimacy to Jon.  It did not appear to be any decision that Ned made.

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet, interestingly enough it doesn't seem that Jon is bothered at all by Robert's visit to Winterfell.  Nor does Eddard make any attempt to hide Jon from Robert.  In fact the entire procession walks right by Jon and his direwolf on the way to the feast.  Cersei even takes note of him.  And the only reason he wasn't at the table was because Cat didn't want to add any legitimacy to Jon.  It did not appear to be any decision that Ned made.

I don't think Ned was ever 'hiding' Jon from Robert, per say. It is known across the realm that Ned had a 'bastard', especially by his King/best friend. But I would expect Ned wouldn't want to draw Robert's attention directly to Jon, on the very slight chance Robert may ever work anything out.

[Lost Melnibonean]

48 minutes ago, Ran said:

She didn't direct any hate at Jon, outside of that single, extraordinary incident in which she was exhausted both physically and emotionally. She directed nothing toward him -- he was someone in Winterfell, who was not her kin or guest or friend, and that's it. She was as distant from him as she was some random scullion in the kitchens. Does she hates the scullion? No. But they're just... there. So with Jon, as Ned's say-so. That Jon figured out she'd rather not have him around is Ned's fault, not hers.

That must have been awkward at table. 

[Frey family reunion]

27 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I don't think Ned was ever 'hiding' Jon from Robert, per say. It is known across the realm that Ned had a 'bastard', especially by his King/best friend. But I would expect Ned wouldn't want to draw Robert's attention directly to Jon, on the very slight chance Robert may ever work anything out.

But here is the problem.  Let's say for sake of argument that Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar, and then Ned suddenly turns up in Winterfell with a bastard.  Already the whole realm both north and south believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna have had sex.  The north believes it was nonconsensual, and the south believes that it was consensual.  

In addition, it is doubtful that Lyanna and Rhaegar would have been alone, their entire time together.  We know that Rhaegar rode out to abduct Lyanna with six other riders.  We assume three of them were the Kingsguard at the tower.  But who were the other three?  Is it at all conceivable that there would not have been talk of Lyanna's pregnancy at some point?  Would word not have traveled through Starfall, or Harrenhal, or Maidenpool, or Hightower, or King's Landing about a possible child.  How would Eddard ever be comfortable with the fact that word did not spread.  How could he be comfortable with the fact that word never reached Varys, who is still acting as the King's spymaster?

It seems to me that Eddard's first thought upon hearing Robert was traveling to Winterfell would be dread at the thought that Robert might have been informed about Jon's identity.  Yet Ned's first reaction at hearing Robert traveling to Winterfell is happiness at seeing his old friend.  

And Jon's presence in the feast hall with his direwolf, certainly draws attention to him.  Even the notoriously self-centered Cersei takes note of him.  And it appears that Jon would have been at the feast table, if not for Cat.

I would think that Ned, on a pretext, could have sent Jon to one of their other holdfasts away from Winterfell for Robert's visit, if Ned was in fact at all concerned with even the slight possibility that Jon's identity as Rhaegar's secret child could be revealed.  

The one person, on the other hand, that Ned does worry about doing harm to Jon, is Cat:

Quote

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?  Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?  He did not know.  He prayed he never would.