Football: No Title Ideas

[Jordan La Cabra]

43 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Not a Liverpool fan but I'd say Klopp should be given another couple of seasons to try and sort out the personnel issues. He's got the side playing their best brand of football since the 2013/2014 season. His tactics worked well at Dortmund, however he did have a better keeper (Weidenfeller), a real leader in defence (Hummels), a better defensive midfielder (Bender) and a better #9 (Lewandowski).

Klopp should realistically be able to upgrade on what he currently has in those positions. VVD should make the move - Southampton made their point but I think VVD will be allowed to leave next season (maybe even in January). He needs someone who can provide better defensive cover than Hendo in midfield, get rid of the likes of Ings, Origi, Sturridge, Flanagan etc. (these guys are too injury prone/not good enough and are just clogging up the wage bill while making no meaningful impact over the course of numerous seasons). Bring in a player more suited to the CF position than Firmino (Werner, Stindl, Dolberg) or break the bank on Belotti.

How many transfer windows has he had since he came to Liverpool? I think it may be four. With those opportunities and the amount of money Liverpool owners are now willing to spend, I would have thought he would have the squad shaped to his own taste by now.

I know Man United spend a lot more money than Liverpool, but it has only taken Jose three windows to have Man United equipped with the personnel he feels he needs.

Instead, Klopp spends his money on players like Robertson, who has hardly had a look in. And Ox, who he was somehow able to fool into believing he would have opportunities at centre mid for Liverpool. His minutes for far for Liverpool in the PL add up to a grand total of 74, and even less at centre mid. 

Clearly Liverpool don't need Ox or he would be featuring a lot more. He cost them £35m. That's £35m they could have spent on a centre back. I don't believe their defensive problems are as simple as just signing a top quality centre back, but with the VVD pursuit, it showed they clearly wanted another one. It makes no sense to me, then, that it had to be VVD or no one. Or that they decided to use £35m on Ox that they didn't need, when they clearly felt they needed a CB. £35m would get you a decent centre back in today's market. I know the circumstances are different, but Bonucci only cost AC Milan £35m.

It makes me wonder what kind of logic Liverpool use when coming up with a plan to sign players, for it clearly doesn't seem as concise as the way someone like Jose Mourinho works. Jose comes up with a list of positions that he wants a player signed for and a list of players he would like for that position, so that if they miss out on one, they can then go after their second choice.

Instead Liverpool seem to identify that they need a centre back, but come to the conclusion that there is only one that is able to improve their side, and if they can't get him, no one else will do. Then, in the case of Ox, it appears that if a decent player becomes available that they don't necessarily need, they may as well try and sign him, even if he wasn't a serious target.

14 minutes ago, baxus said:

I don't think bringing in 4 best defenders in the world (whoever they may be, I'm not trying to start that debate) would solve Liverpool's defensive problems. The system is missing. They look as if they had no training sessions focused on defensive play. It's a complete shambles. VVD won't make a bit of difference unless that changes.

I agree.

It's not the defenders, it's the system. Matip, in flashes, has shown he is a good defender. Lovern looked like a great player when he played for Southampton. VVD was the man Southampton signed to replace Lovern after they sold him to Liverpool.

That's why I wonder if Liverpool will ever look like a solid defensive side under Klopp. It was the same under Rodgers; neither manager seemed to be able to coach their midfield and defence into defending properly, yet both had a knack for getting their attack to defend well from the front.

Rafa's spell at Liverpool had its faults, but they were usually one of the best defensive sides in the league. You'd have to go back to the Rafa days to remember that Liverpool were actually able to defend consistently for any length of time.

[baxus]

10 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

How many transfer windows has he had since he came to Liverpool? I think it may be four. With those opportunities and the amount of money Liverpool owners are now willing to spend, I would have thought he would have the squad shaped to his own taste by now.

<snip>

Instead Liverpool seem to identify that they need a centre back, but come to the conclusion that there is only one that is able to improve their side, and if they can't get him, no one else will do.

<snip>

Rafa's spell at Liverpool had its faults, but they were usually one of the best defensive sides in the league. You'd have to go back to the Rafa days to remember that Liverpool were actually able to defend consistently for any length of time.

I quite like that Klopp won't buy a player only just for the sake of buying a player. On the other hand, he really needs to step it up when it comes to defensive aspect of the game. Four windows are more than enough for him to get the squad to his liking, especially when you consider he had some players that are extremely well suited to playing in his system (Coutinho, for one).

Klopp said that there aren't five defenders in the world that are better than defenders in Liverpool's squad. While it is great that he tries to boost his players' confidence like that, it's total bullshit. Hell, it's quite likely we'd find someone who'd defend better than Lovren or at least Moreno among people on this board.

Yes, Rafa's Liverpool played very well organized football and were very fun to watch without being inconsistent. They were also very competitive in Europe and, to a bit lesser extent, in Premier League as well. It has to be said that he had some genuine world class players in the squad at the time, though. 2005 Gerrard could've played in literally every single club in the world, as could Xabi Alonso and Torres. Since leaving Liverpool, Rafa's star hasn't really shone that bright, has it?

[Mark Antony]

Rafa brought in those World Class players (Xabi, Mascherano, Torres) with great business in the transfer window. If Rafa has FSG money.....

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

How many transfer windows has he had since he came to Liverpool? I think it may be four. With those opportunities and the amount of money Liverpool owners are now willing to spend, I would have thought he would have the squad shaped to his own taste by now.

I know Man United spend a lot more money than Liverpool, but it has only taken Jose three windows to have Man United equipped with the personnel he feels he needs.

I wouldn't count the January windows though. Generally managers avoid doing business during that window unless something has gone terribly wrong. But, yeah, the recruitment, particularly of defensive players, could have been better.

 

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Instead, Klopp spends his money on players like Robertson, who has hardly had a look in. And Ox, who he was somehow able to fool into believing he would have opportunities at centre mid for Liverpool. His minutes for far for Liverpool in the PL add up to a grand total of 74, and even less at centre mid. 

Clearly Liverpool don't need Ox or he would be featuring a lot more. He cost them £35m. That's £35m they could have spent on a centre back. I don't believe their defensive problems are as simple as just signing a top quality centre back, but with the VVD pursuit, it showed they clearly wanted another one. It makes no sense to me, then, that it had to be VVD or no one. Or that they decided to use £35m on Ox that they didn't need, when they clearly felt they needed a CB. £35m would get you a decent centre back in today's market. I know the circumstances are different, but Bonucci only cost AC Milan £35m.

It makes me wonder what kind of logic Liverpool use when coming up with a plan to sign players, for it clearly doesn't seem as concise as the way someone like Jose Mourinho works. Jose comes up with a list of positions that he wants a player signed for and a list of players he would like for that position, so that if they miss out on one, they can then go after their second choice.

Instead Liverpool seem to identify that they need a centre back, but come to the conclusion that there is only one that is able to improve their side, and if they can't get him, no one else will do. Then, in the case of Ox, it appears that if a decent player becomes available that they don't necessarily need, they may as well try and sign him, even if he wasn't a serious target.

The Ox signing I found to be baffling as well as the bid for Lemar. Now while Lemar is a good player, I really don't see him offering anything substantially better than what Liverpool currently has in the AM/LW positions. He certainly wouldn't fill a position of weakness and was going to cost a ridiculous sum as well. Instead of Ox, I think Liverpool should have really gone after Kondogbia who was available on loan from Inter. He's been outstanding for Valencia and provides more defensive cover than Liverpool's entire midfield combined (maybe a bit of hyperbole in there). I'm fine with Liverpool waiting on VVD but they really should have brought in another CB and gotten rid of Klavan as he is nowhere near good enough. Inigo Martinez was available for a bargain buyout of €32m.

At Dortmund, Klopp had a much better defensive spine (Weidenfeller, Hummels and Bender) and a 20+ goal a season CF. And this is the problem - apart from looking to sign a CB, it doesn't look like Klopp is interested in a CM who can provide good defensive cover (better than what Hendo offers) or a better CF than Firmino. Also think that Ward and Karius should be given more opportunity. At least they have a chance of improving whereas this is as good as Mignolet is ever going to get.

 

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

It's not the defenders, it's the system. Matip, in flashes, has shown he is a good defender. Lovern looked like a great player when he played for Southampton. VVD was the man Southampton signed to replace Lovern after they sold him to Liverpool.

That's why I wonder if Liverpool will ever look like a solid defensive side under Klopp. It was the same under Rodgers; neither manager seemed to be able to coach their midfield and defence into defending properly, yet both had a knack for getting their attack to defend well from the front.

Rafa's spell at Liverpool had its faults, but they were usually one of the best defensive sides in the league. You'd have to go back to the Rafa days to remember that Liverpool were actually able to defend consistently for any length of time.

If 'Pool fans are looking for the team to be a well drilled defensive unit then Klopp is not the guy. He has never been that guy even during his best years at Dortmund so it's not like he suddenly lost that ability at Liverpool. Dortmund always had that air of defensive fragility; it was just that the better quality of defensive players he had at Dortmund made enough of a difference as well as having a reliable CF. If Liverpool had a reliable CF, they would score 2 or 3 before conceding a soft one and no-one would care.

Klopp came in to Liverpool when the team looked absolutely dire and utterly devoid of creativity. His recruitment has not been perfect but he has brought excitement back to Anfield and I think he deserves at least another season, if not two, to work on the squad.

[Consigliere]

2 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

I know he was highly rated a couple of years ago, but hasn't Kondogbia had a terrible time of things lately? He seems like he'd be a risk.

I'm not sure about his time at Inter but I've watched all of Valencia's games this season and he has been immense. As I mentioned, he was available on loan so that would have mitigated the risk.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Alvaro Morata out for 6 weeks. Absolutely fantastic!

At least I know now we won't win the title. It's not like we can flirt with pushing the Manchester clubs then end up missing out. No Morata, no title, it's simple as that.

I like Michy Batshuayi, but I think I like him as a character more than I like him as a player. The fact Conte overlooked him for Willian when Morata got injured on Saturday says all we need to know about how Conte feels about him. Some could say it was tactical, but last season, when Costa got dropped over the China thing, Conte went with Hazard, Willian and Pedro up front the next game against Leicester, leaving Michy on the bench again. He was definitely an Emelano signing, not a Conte signing.

Although he's nowhere near Morata's current level, this is when signing Llorente would have come in very handy. Instead, they farted around and let Tottenham swoop in.

And I've the cheek to question Liverpool's recruitment policy!

[baxus]

16 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Rafa brought in those World Class players (Xabi, Mascherano, Torres) with great business in the transfer window. If Rafa has FSG money.....

He sure did, but it's not as if his coffers were empty at Chelsea, Inter and Real and he hasn't really done anywhere near that well.

I'm not saying Rafa is a bad manager, he's far from it. Watching Liverpool under him was most fun* over the past 20 years since I've been watching them, with a possible exception of 2013/2014 season when Suarez and Sturridge duo was absolutely brilliant.

Gillette and Hicks were a huge problem at the time of Rafa's sacking and I agree with you that his cooperation with FSG would probably turn out better.

*The fun of watching Klopp's Liverpool squad's offensive performance is quite dampened by watching Klopp's Liverpool squad's defensive performance.  

[The Winged Shadow]

21 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

This is hypothetical, but say Liverpool missed out on top four and didn't win any trophies this season, would that be enough for Liverpool fans to think Klopp isn't the man for the job? And would any of you guys welcome Rafa back if Klopp were to leave or be sacked?

I still think he is the man for the job. Despite the results, I love watching pool play. They could've won every single of the drawn games. It is frustrating to watch the missed chances combined with the defensive mistakes (which I'd argue we don't make many of in a game, but every single mistake seems to result in a goal, which is a bit rough), but if finishing was even half decent we wouldn't be talking about this at all.

20 hours ago, Rorshach said:

I think the debate on Liverpool’s defense misses a bit of focus. 

Joselu ran through on goal. A man slower than a crawling old man. Your defense let him through on a run, and you’ve done something very, very wrong.

The offside trap wasn't executed properly. Which is why it looked a lot worse than it was. Matip sort of stopped and stepped back a bit because he couldn't see Shelvey passing, and that backward step created a pretty tight decision going to Joselu's favour.

I couldn't believe when Matip caught up to him for the sliding challenge

18 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

How many transfer windows has he had since he came to Liverpool?

Two. I don't count the winter windows. While FSG has backed spending, I don't think they will spend stupid money for the sake of it. Certainly, Klopp has come out and said he wouldn't pay silly money for players. That generally rules out winter windows, unless desperate, which we could be considering Lovren popping pills and not training.

As for Ox:
I think he was a really good signing. I don't know why people still harp on about the whole playing at centre thing. I know at Arsenal he expressed he wants to be in the centre, but Klopp has already come out and said he sees Ox playing at 4 positions, the left/right box to box role and the left/right tucked in winger roles (maybe one of the holding if Pool plays 4-2-3-1). All these positions are a lot more central that Arsenal's system. Arsenal plays wide wingers, so he'll need time to adjust to the tucked in winger role and how to press in that role. He won't play ahead of Mane and Salah, but he can easily play before Gini (on pretty much all the away games :P) and Can considering how often those two disappear in certain games.

Because if Mane or Salah is injured, there is no pace left in this team. Once he tunes in, I think he will see more minutes and rotations with Salah/Mane in different games. This will come into play later in the season.

 

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 hours ago, baxus said:

He sure did, but it's not as if his coffers were empty at Chelsea, Inter and Real and he hasn't really done anywhere near that well.

I'm not saying Rafa is a bad manager, he's far from it.

Gillette and Hicks were a huge problem at the time of Rafa's sacking and I agree with you that his cooperation with FSG would probably turn out better.

 

Inter was a disaster, as was Real Madrid. But I think for Real Madrid, he just wasn't the right type of manager for a job like Real Madrid. Rafa doesn't really suck up to his star players. Gerrard has admitted that during Rafa's years as manager, trying to get a compliment out of him was like getting blood from a stone. Gerrard is hardly looked at as a prima donna lusting for attention and adulation, but he is still seen as a superstar. So imagine how global superstars like Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, James etc felt about Rafa's man management skills...

Napoli, though, was somewhat successful. Mainly during his first season, where they won the Coppa Italia and qualified for the Champions League.

At Chelsea, I don't think he would have been given power; after all, he was only ever 'interim manager', something he frequently complained about during his half a season at Stamford Bridge. Despite the hate he received by 90% of our fans, I actually didn't mind him. He came in, steadied the ship, got us to finish third and qualify for the Champions League and managed to win the Europa League. Considering the adversity he faced from the Chelsea fans, that's pretty good work for essentially a caretaker manager.

Newcastle were half way relegated when he took the job, but the fact he stayed and took them up by winning the Championship has actually earned him more respect, in my eyes. So far, Newcastle look in good shape to stay up, despite the lack of transfer funds handed to him by Mike Ashley. If he keeps them up comfortably, that will be another success story to add to his CV.

Also, before Liverpool, he did exceptionally well with Valencia, winning their first La Liga title in over thirty years then following it up with a second La Liga title and a Uefa Cup.

Admittedly, for every one good signing he made at Liverpool, he seemed to make two bad ones. But you wonder if he would have had to sign some of those flops if the owners were willing to back him the way FSG are now doing with Klopp.

We will never know, I suppose. Unless Liverpool sack Klopp and bring back Benitez...

 

 

[Rorshach]

Seeing that Koeman has been given a vote of confidence from the board.

Ouch!

[polishgenius]

Word on the tweet is that Jupp Heynckes is about to be announced as Bayern's manager. Well that's terrifying. Last time he was there he made them probably the best footballing side I've ever seen.

[Consigliere]

Heynckes is a good short term solution. I doubt he will be able to transform Bayern into the side of 2012/2013 simply because I don't see him remaining in charge beyond this season. The hope will be that he can get the likes of Müller and Alaba back to something like their best and sort out the dressing room issues. Wonder what happened with Tuchel. Maybe he wanted more autonomy than what Hoeneß was will to give?

[polishgenius]

Was there ever any real indication that Bayern were seriously interested in Tuchel? It seems to me as if he was hyped as the favourite just because he's the most known German coach aside from Klopp now. But his frustrations on the pitch at Dormund and disagreements off it don't shout of someone that Bayern would be desparate to sign.

The word on the grapevine before Ancellotti went was that Bayern planned to replace him at the end of the season with Nagelsmann, and I strongly suspect they still want to and that's why they've bought Heyncke's in temporarily rather than getting a long-term option they see as inferior.

[Jordan La Cabra]

It's not the first time he has returned to Bayern on a short term basis, so it does make sense.

I saw Hoeneß said that he discussed who he was appointing as Bayern manager with Guardiola - who approved of the choice - which led me to think it was a proper appointment as opposed to a short term thing. It also led me to believe someone like Luis Enrique could have been in the running, as he's still a free agent.

The Bayern old boys will be happy to see Heynckes back. Perhaps some of the newer and younger Bayern players may be worrying that he will be coming back to 'bring the old band back together' and show a sense of favouritism to his old buddies like Muller, Robben, Boateng, Ribery (if he comes back from his injury this season).

Either way, I hope it doesn't work out for him. It would be great to see someone else win that league for a change, especially if that were to be a team like RB Leipzig. It might actually provide Bayern with the kick up the arse that they need, and make them realise to rival Real Madrid and Barcelona, they might have to start spending like them.

[Philokles]

Hummels said that Hoeneß asked him for his thoughts on Tuchel. He likely would not have been overly flattering about how easy he is to get along with which was probably why they overlooked him.

Will be interesting to see whether Heynckes starts the period of transition now or if he leaves it to Nagelsmann or whoever. He has as free a hand as you could hope for at a superclub - relatively low expectations, respect of the dressing room, an untarnishable legacy and no long term career to worry about.

[polishgenius]

14 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

especially if that were to be a team like RB Leipzig.

Eh, fuck that. They're the one team in German football who have a claim to being more objectionable than Bayern.

Hoffenheim would be cool.

[Philokles]

9 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

It also led me to believe someone like Luis Enrique could have been in the running, as he's still a free agent.

Don't think there was ever much chance of that. Doubt he speaks German and there are plenty of domestic managers with more innovation - which they must have realised they need long term - even if they believe his Barcelona job puts him in the top tier of managers. 

 

9 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Either way, I hope it doesn't work out for him. It would be great to see someone else win that league for a change, especially if that were to be a team like RB Leipzig. It might actually provide Bayern with the kick up the arse that they need, and make them realise to rival Real Madrid and Barcelona, they might have to start spending like them.

Bayern were able to challenge them for the past five years without spending mega money. Even this summer they break their record to sign Tolisso and he has been outshone by a free transfer in Rudy.

RBL winning the league, travesty though it would be, hardly would prove that huge purchases are the way to go. They bought their way into the league but since then signings have been reasonable values. 

[Jordan La Cabra]

8 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Eh, fuck that. They're the one team in German football who have a claim to being more objectionable than Bayern.

Hoffenheim would be cool.

That would be even better, but can't help but feel it is a lot less likely. Even if Dortmund won at least it would be someone other than Bayern.

4 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Bayern were able to challenge them for the past five years without spending mega money. Even this summer they break their record to sign Tolisso and he has been outshone by a free transfer in Rudy.

RBL winning the league, travesty though it would be, hardly would prove that huge purchases are the way to go. They bought their way into the league but since then signings have been reasonable values. 

I didn't mean RB Leipzig would prove that, I mean someone else in general winning the title may prove that to them, I just chose RBL through personal preference. I just think lack of competition has lead to Bayern having an arrogance that they are entitled to winning everything without having to spend like PSG etc. It's like they think because they win the Bundesliga every season without a sweat that they don't need to make big changes to challenge their rivals in Europe, as seen by how they turn their noses up at PSG, yet were completely dismantled by them the other week.

Why would RBL winning the league be a travesty, though? Would the ultimate travesty not be Bayern winning the title for a sixth year running?

[polishgenius]

Just now, JordanJH1993 said:

Why would RBL winning the league be a travesty, though? Would the ultimate travesty not be Bayern winning the title for a sixth year running?

Coz of the way Red Bull blatantly cheat the 50+1 rule that keeps German football on a fan-based keel and also the blatant rampant corporate stink of the whole thing. Obviously in a wider international context outside money boosting a team isn't new but in the way they've gone about subverting German football rules they are highly objectionable.

You can throw some of the same accusations at Hoffenheim who also have a rich owner but it's nowhere to the same extent and they've gone about it in a far more organic and local-focused manner. Red Bull are like City crossed with MK Dons.

[Jordan La Cabra]

13 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Coz of the way Red Bull blatantly cheat the 50+1 rule that keeps German football on a fan-based keel and also the blatant rampant corporate stink of the whole thing. Obviously in a wider international context outside money boosting a team isn't new but in the way they've gone about subverting German football rules they are highly objectionable.

You can throw some of the same accusations at Hoffenheim who also have a rich owner but it's nowhere to the same extent and they've gone about it in a far more organic and local-focused manner. Red Bull are like City crossed with MK Dons.

But is the way German football being run really working for competition? The fact Bayern have won the title five years in a row uncontested suggests that their ruling is distorting the competition enough as it is. Leipzig coming in with outside money boosting the team actually made many believe there might have been a title race last season. Even with outside money, Leipzig still failed to Bayern, in the end. It's not even like Leipzig throw money around the way Chelsea or Man City ever did. They mainly use their money wisely, by signing players under 23 for reasonable prices.

People complain in England about how Blackburn Rovers came in with outside money and won the league in the 90's, then Chelsea did it in the 00's followed by Man City a few years later, but if it wasn't for that outside money, we would have watched Man United and Arsenal share 25 league titles between them. Leicester likely wouldn't have won their title, either, as there wouldn't be the TV money generated for the smaller PL clubs to use to improve their clubs, as the interest in the PL wouldn't be as high if only Man United and Arsenal were winning it.