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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Sure, she took bad advice from Tyrion last season to stupidly not siege King's Landing and what did it get her? Nothing.  Loss of Yara, Dorne, Oleana, one dragon and no one loves or thanks her for not attacking.  The show, again, did a terrible  job of explaining any of this.  

 

It isn t just a terrible job. Are we really suposed to believe nobody would like danny after she went north and helped save them? She helped them through a nightmare and people just want to get rid of her?

Again, if this was the angle they wanted to use in s8 then things in s7 should be diferent. That is my main problem… This season doesn t fit with the set up of s7...

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sure, she took bad advice from Tyrion last season to stupidly not siege King's Landing and what did it get her? Nothing.  Loss of Yara, Dorne, Oleana, one dragon and no one loves or thanks her for not attacking.  The show, again, did a terrible  job of explaining any of this.  

 

Poor in the execution but excellent as a concept. I trust it will all be clearer when we get tWOW.

Initially, Dany is conflicted between her self-image as Breaker of Chains, wanting the smallfolk to love her for freeing them from the tyranny of Westerosi rulers, and her impatience to claim her birthrite. Impatience would lead to slaughtering those she wants to liberate, so she follows the advice of the doves advising her as that accords with her deeper ideals.

Unfortunately, the outcome of doing things the noble way is that she loses armies, dragons, loved ones and finally her closest confidante. The accumulation of these setbacks explain her decision to do what she did when she heard the bells.

Had she not gone through that journey, her actions would simply lead viewers to conclude that she did an inexplicable heel-turn and became the 'Mad Queen'.

Oh.

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Just now, House Cambodia said:

Poor in the execution but excellent as a concept. I trust it will all be clearer when we get tWOW.

Initially, Dany is conflicted between her self-image as Breaker of Chains, wanting the smallfolk to love her for freeing them from the tyranny of Westerosi rulers, and her impatience to claim her birthrite. Impatience would lead to slaughtering those she wants to liberate, so she follows the advice of the doves advising her as that accords with her deeper ideals.

Unfortunately, the outcome of doing things the noble way is that she loses armies, dragons, loved ones and finally her closest confidante. The accumulation of these setbacks explain her decision to do what she did when she heard the bells.

Had she not gone through that journey, her actions would simply lead viewers to conclude that she did an inexplicable heel-turn and became the 'Mad Queen'.

Oh.

The books have also set up a much more complicated situation than what the show did, the show did a poor job in even trying to explain why Cersei who blew the Sept up was still in power and not having to put down rioting every day.  In the books there is the fake Aegon whole story that will complicate her arrival in Westeros, fighting another possible Targaryen whose already scooped up many of her potential allies.  Much  more potential that these events will harden her heart and lead to a tyrannical approach..she's already basically a tyrant anyway, but is still benevolent to those she sees as innocent or powerless.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

The books have also set up a much more complicated situation than what the show did, the show did a poor job in even trying to explain why Cersei who blew the Sept up was still in power and not having to put down rioting every day.  In the books there is the fake Aegon whole story that will complicate her arrival in Westeros, fighting another possible Targaryen whose already scooped up many of her potential allies.  Much  more potential that these events will harden her heart and lead to a tyrannical approach..she's already basically a tyrant anyway, but is still benevolent to those she sees as innocent or powerless.

Yes, and I'm even more anxious to get my hands on the books and get the proper account than I was before this season. In the books the plot and characters will be more complicated but also clearer, consistent and logical. As I say, I can see what the ideas are behind the TV episodes, but they are delivered in such a cack-handed way. Also, what is so special about the books that even talented screen-writers can't replicate is that we get to see the POVs, therefore the motivations, of all the main characters.

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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The books have also set up a much more complicated situation than what the show did, the show did a poor job in even trying to explain why Cersei who blew the Sept up was still in power and not having to put down rioting every day.  In the books there is the fake Aegon whole story that will complicate her arrival in Westeros, fighting another possible Targaryen whose already scooped up many of her potential allies.  Much  more potential that these events will harden her heart and lead to a tyrannical approach..she's already basically a tyrant anyway, but is still benevolent to those she sees as innocent or powerless.

She could never arrive as benevolent ruler in westeros. Her troops are basically dothriaki (awful people), unsulied, the fiery hand (if the red priests think she is AA) and maybe IB... Neither of this people would be accepted in westeros...

And her conflict with faegon does have more potential to make her snap for several interesting things (a fake getting more suport than her that is a real targ, he demanding that she kneels to him, he somehow getting one of her dragons…)

But the fact is that this isn t even close to how she behaved in s7... The problem is just that.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t like the path she took to become a villain. I can t reconcile what I saw last season with this season...

What I am doing is saying that either the books are diferent from season 6 and 7 or the ending should be diferent… 

That is a completely different matter. You can argue, that the show did a bad job describing her "breaking bad". Although this is also debatable, since quite a lot of people have speculated for years of the "Mad Queen theory", basically since season  2. So aperantly, the show did show it to some extent. You can find those theories here. But that is not the point. The point is "Evil Danny" is straight from the books yet to come.

Edited by T and A

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1 minute ago, T and A said:

That is a completely different matter. You can argue, that the show did a bad job describing her "breaking bad". Although this is also debatable, since quite a lot of people have speculated for years of the "Mad Queen theory", basically since season  2. You can find those theories here. But that is not the point. The point is "Evil Danny" is straight from the books yet to come.

She did a lot of shady thing in essos. Nor argument here…

And at the end of season 6 she had the potential to be a "mad queen". But season 7 basically discarded that story line by the way danny behaved. And it is needed more than heartbreak for danny to want to burn half a million of innocents...

Basically either danny's path should be diferent or her ending should be diferent… And grrm won t sell a sudden mad danny and jon (that is in love with her) having to kill her and going into exile because he is broken within 100 or 200 pages without making me hate it...

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7 minutes ago, divica said:

She could never arrive as benevolent ruler in westeros. Her troops are basically dothriaki (awful people), unsulied, the fiery hand (if the red priests think she is AA) and maybe IB... Neither of this people would be accepted in westeros...

 

And let's not forget: The Lannister propaganda... 

Remember the theatrical performances Arya watched in Braavos? People were absolutely biases against the Starks, they loved Cersei and her son, they booed like hell each time "the imp" or Ned Stark appeared on stage.

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3 hours ago, Westerosi said:

More purported Episode 6 leaks -

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

No.  I don't agree.  George's 60 minutes interview says it this adaptation is more faithful than 97% of adaptations, which was only a few weeks ago, so the idea that the fate of one of the major characters was totally changed is not believable to me.  Dany will turn into a tyrant, Jon, my guess is, renounces the throne and goes North, Sansa rules at Winterfell, Arya takes a powder. 

I'm sorry, but you think the above quote is how the books end?

Well I have to very strongly disagree with that. I guess we will have to seriously wait it out to find out the answer.  But this ending is wrong and very stupid and GRRM is not stupid.

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1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

I'm sorry, but you think the above quote is how the books end?

Well I have to very strongly disagree with that. I guess we will have to seriously wait it out to find out the answer.  But this ending is wrong and very stupid and GRRM is not stupid.

It's not stupid, just very tragic.  Dany starts from a place of desperation, rises to power and idealism, but always retains her entitlement, always defaults to fire and blood, now coupled with a messianic belief in her own destiny, she faces hardships and terrible losses and over time she changes from the wannabe benevolent dictator [which is always a bad idea] and turns into a tyrant, she loses her idealism but retains her entitlement.

The fact that the show did a terrible job with this tragic story doesn't make it stupid, it is in fact, very, very much in keeping with the rest of the novels.  All choices have consequences and to a large degree, character is destiny.  The biggest lie has been that this story has a bittersweet ending.

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SSM

“There will be a debate, I’m sure….A lot of people who will say ‘Oh, Dan and Dave’s ending is better than the one George gave us. It’s a good thing they changed it.’ And there will be a lot of people who say, ‘No, Dan and Dave got it wrong. George’s ending is better.’ And they will all fight on the internet, and there will be debate. And that’s fine. You know, the worst thing for any work of art, be it a movie or a book, is to be ignored.”

“We’ve got all these Spider-Men. Is that Stan Lee’s Spider-Man from the comic books? They’re similar, but they’re also different. Things happen to one that never happen to the other. Things are resolved differently. The girlfriends are shuffled and reshuffled. The primary beats are there, the character is there, but it’s a question of the choices you make to tell a story, which are partially dictated by your medium.”

 

I think we can all take this how we want, we will each confirm parts of the show we like and throw away parts we dont like. there is no solid answer.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

It's not stupid, just very tragic.  Dany starts from a place of desperation, rises to power and idealism, but always retains her entitlement, always defaults to fire and blood, now coupled with a messianic belief in her own destiny, she faces hardships and terrible losses and over time she changes from the wannabe benevolent dictator [which is always a bad idea] and turns into a tyrant, she loses her idealism but retains her entitlement.

The fact that the show did a terrible job with this tragic story doesn't make it stupid, it is in fact, very, very much in keeping with the rest of the novels.  All choices have consequences and to a large degree, character is destiny.  The biggest lie has been that this story has a bittersweet ending.

So following this you also think that Jaime goes back to Cersei after Riverrun and stays true to her all the way through the end of the novels? And dies comforting her instead of the one who actually kills her?

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1 minute ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

guys you should check out the bran theories floating around - they are blowing my mind!

Such as?

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11 minutes ago, divica said:

She did a lot of shady thing in essos. Nor argument here…

And at the end of season 6 she had the potential to be a "mad queen". But season 7 basically discarded that story line by the way danny behaved. And it is needed more than heartbreak for danny to want to burn half a million of innocents...

Basically either danny's path should be diferent or her ending should be diferent… And grrm won t sell a sudden mad danny and jon (that is in love with her) having to kill her and going into exile because he is broken within 100 or 200 pages without making me hate it...

In season 7 she burned the Tarlys alive, after she defeated them. Tyrion adviced her against it. It was also Tyrion who held her up from sacking Kings Landing and commiting mass murder on innocent people. She agreed to help Jon because she saw the WW. She obviously knew that you won't be able to rule the seven kingdoms if your Kingdom is overrun by zombies. So she agreed to help. In season 7, there was not much storytelling to show her getting mad. She arrived in Westeros in the end of the first episode, killed the Tarlys in the 4th and had to go north in the 6th. In the 7th she had to make an agreement with Cersei. That's it. 

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2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So following this you also think that Jaime goes back to Cersei after Riverrun and stays true to her all the way through the end of the novels? And dies comforting her instead of the one who actually kills her?

I've never been sold on his redemption myself, so I think it's possible that he tries to be a better man and fails.  But all I really take from the show is that they will die together.  The way they die, whether it's a reunion or a murder/suicide, I don't think we can tell from the show, they very strongly make it that he is incapable of change, so I do believe this is possible, there are certainly hints that he's not as redeemed as his fans think he is.

In the same way, I don't expect Arya plays any major role in the defeat of the Others, that is for Jon and Dany, the show stupidly robbed them of that victory for surprise.  However, if Arya dies or leaves Westeros I will admit that this is her book end also, that she too will have failed in her quest to remake a pack, and that too will be tragic.

 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I've never been sold on his redemption myself, so I think it's possible that he tries to be a better man and fails.  But all I really take from the show is that they will die together.  The way they die, whether it's a reunion or a murder/suicide, I don't think we can tell from the show, they very strongly make it that he is incapable of change, so I do believe this is possible, there are certainly hints that he's not as redeemed as his fans think he is.

In the same way, I don't expect Arya plays any major role in the defeat of the Others, that is for Jon and Dany, the show stupidly robbed them of that victory for surprise.  However, if Arya dies or leaves Westeros I will admit that this is her book end also, that she too will have failed in her quest to remake a pack, and that too will be tragic.

 

Oh, I'll have to disagree on that as well, I dont think Jaime ever goes back to Cersei in the novels. He left her, he's done with her.  But then again, I also do not think Cersei will last so long in the novels. D&D clearly ran of of content for her sometime ago, she has only had like 5 speaking lines in the last 8 episodes. They had no idea what to do with KL, the small council, the 7 kingdoms at large, the citadel or the actual governance of the realm. so yes we have very different ideas on what will happen in the novels. but GD we will have to wait :(

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6 minutes ago, T and A said:

In season 7 she burned the Tarlys alive, after she defeated them. Tyrion adviced her against it. It was also Tyrion who held her up from sacking Kings Landing and commiting mass murder on innocent people. She agreed to help Jon because she saw the WW. She obviously knew that you won't be able to rule the seven kingdoms if your Kingdom is overrun by zombies. So she agreed to help. In season 7, there was not much storytelling to show her getting mad. She arrived in Westeros in the end of the first episode, killed the Tarlys in the 4th and had to go north in the 6th. In the 7th she had to make an agreement with Cersei. That's it. 

We were talking about the books, not Dany's stupid storyline in the show.

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1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Oh, I'll have to disagree on that as well, I dont think Jaime ever goes back to Cersei in the novels. He left her, he's done with her.  But then again, I also do not think Cersei will last so long in the novels. D&D clearly ran of of content for her sometime ago, she has only had like 5 speaking lines in the last 8 episodes. They had no idea what to do with KL, the small council, the 7 kingdoms at large, the citadel or the actual governance of the realm. so yes we have very different ideas on what will happen in the novels. but GD we will have to wait :(

I'm done waiting.  I decided when Summer and Rickon and Shaggy Dog died that I wasn't reading Winds, and while I think that Dany turning rogue is the best end to her story, much better than this entitled, ruthless person actually maintaining power at the end, I find I'm not interested in reading about a character that I used to love destroy herself.  So, in that vein, George  has made me turn on my bloodlust and though this is the ending I always wanted for her since Meereen, I don't want to read it.  I'm not interested in reading 2 or 3  more books where all the main characters continue to break and end up dead or broken.  

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1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

We were talking about the books, not Dany's stupid storyline in the show.

No, we, me and divica were talking about the show, as you might read. I dont know what you are talking about. But go on, it surely makes sense somewhere.

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